Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

[Hidden In Him]

Of the few who might have the ability to understand all of that stuff, probably only a handful would also have the time to even simply read it.

Yes. I have the ability and also a scholarly bent, but even I couldn't care less. The mark of someone who is "apt to teach" is that they pay attention to if anyone is listening first, and to what extent. I could load this forum down with about 100 or more 7-page Bible studies myself, but who would I be reaching?

Maybe the more important question is Who would I be impressing, since the answer to the former question would be virtually no one, LoL.

 

[amadeus]

Yes. I have the ability and also a scholarly bent, but even I couldn't care less. The mark of someone who is "apt to teach" is that they pay attention to if anyone is listening first, and to what extent. I could load this forum down with about 100 or more 7-page Bible studies myself, but who would I be reaching?

Maybe the more important question is Who would I be impressing, since the answer to the former question would be virtually no one, LoL.

Amen!

 

[Hobie]

You have to understand that the Jews would not change the word or phrase in any way in the text, they held that every word was God given, so were very careful. God gives a very serious warning to anyone who takes away or adds to any of the words in the Bible:

Revelation 22:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Look at what it says in Deuteronomy 4:2:

Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

I think this is as direct as it gets...

 

[mjrhealth]

You have to understand that the Jews would not change the word or phrase in any way in the text, they held that every word was God given, so were very careful. God gives a very serious warning to anyone who takes away or adds to any of the words in the Bible:

Revelation 22:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Look at what it says in Deuteronomy 4:2:

Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

I think this is as direct as it gets...

If what you say is true, than 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999 % of the scholars out there are worthy of death, as would just about every man in the world since it was first penned.

 

[ReChoired]

How many people on here are actually reading all of this stuff? Help us dear Lord to seek your face!

"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8

Only those interested in truth, such as I am, and others.

I am not interested in that which commonly passes as religion but is merely empty platitudes and well-sayin's like some are. Words and no substance of fact, vanity and not verity. Worthless.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.​

The Word of God is truth, and yet there is counterfeit in the world, and we, who are lovers of God, shall continue to sound warning to all who will take heed, and to all who will refuse to heed. Post error, and truth will be given in exchange, exposing the darkness for what it is.

Act_9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Act_17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.​

Therefore, we will continue to dispute, because we remember the words spoken beforehand, and those words, do not match the false words, and false epistles that continue to circulate:

Jud_1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

2Pe_3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
​

You complain (and whine and pine) about us, and that publicly. Yet, your complaint is even against Paul himself, who wrote Hebrews "in few words" (13 chapters!).

Heb_13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.
​

Your standard of judgment is hypocritical. Turn the mirror to yourself elder brother.

 

[ReChoired]

I really think cares much about vindication, all he cares about is mans salvation, which is all we should care about, getting His truth, not ours to teh masses and teh religious.

The key phrase is what 'you' "really think". Not interested in your speculation. I am interested in what God thinks, and I cited the verse to you.

Salvation? which? there are hundreds of so-called methods, ideologies, and that which is presented in one passing itself as the Holy Bible, is differing in that which passes as the other.

Truth is defined by God, in His word. There have been demonstrated to you, that so called 'modern versions' are contradictory to not only their own selves, but to each other. If you do not care about this, this is your prerogative, not mine.

 

[ReChoired]

Amen

The longer the post the less I read, Jesus just isnt that complicated.

Surely your complaint against God in Psalms 119 (176 verses!), and in Jeremiah and Isaiah (over 50 chapters each!) is upon your heart also? When the prophecy of Daniel 8 was given, even Daniel himself did not then understand, and it took him many more years to obtain more light and understanding on it.

Your standards are hypocritical, even when weighed against what you read daily in life. God has marked it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Surely your complaint against God in Psalms 119 (176 verses!), and in Jeremiah and Isaiah (over 50 chapters each!) is upon your heart also? When the prophecy of Daniel 8 was given, even Daniel himself did not then understand, and it took him many more years to obtain more light and understanding on it.

Your standards are hypocritical, even when weighed against what you read daily in life. God has marked it.

What standards, I only have one, Christ, there is only one word of God, even the bible declares it,

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I have no complaints against God, couldn't even bother to complain about religion and all that man made stuff, serves no one but man and the devil, God teaches men His way in His time, as they learn one thing He leads them to another. one step at a time, men want to learn it all in a day. Jesus had being teaching a friend of mine Genisis for over 30 years, still dont thnk shes got past chapter 4, though he has taught her much more other than that, but that is teh way God does things, His way, not our.

 

[ReChoired]

LoL. ReChoired posts... Pages upon pages. Unfortunately he hasn't posted a thing on a simple little thread I directed him to yet... must be a curve ball he's never seen before, so he doesn't want to swing at it.

I think Oz appears to be right. He's neck-deep in conspiracy theory, and tunnel-visioning in the extreme.

Am I a child to take your insulting jab as reason to engage in the asinine, even as I warned of it before you did it? You have already been answered in this thread, and you were the one to run to another thread and refuse to engage here on what is posted. Feel free to sit in your little corner firing all your arsenal into empty water, declaring victory, as like Kim Jong Un.

I post, in this thread, in response to error and for promotion of that which is truth, documentedly so (so much so, you haven't even engaged it).

Name-calling is the best response yourself and Oz can do to the material I presented? Ha! I am clean, free and clear, then. It is the sign of a weak, vapid and non-existent argument, that cannot stand upon documented, verifiable, evidence and must resort to piffling, hand-waving, gesturing and dismissal as 'conspiracy theories'

 

[ReChoired]

This the way I have been on forums for many years. Perhaps his church group gives him brownie points of kind for posting it all?

Jas_3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

 

[ReChoired]

I have nothing against a person who is able to, to then goes ahead and studies things in depth like that, but I fail to see a meaningful purpose to posting it all here on an open forum blindly. ...

It isn't blindly, and I responded to erroneous statements with facts (documentedly so) of correction (just like this response). As for instance, see this response to yet another erroneous statement - Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

My responses on Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (so called) were in continued response to this error - Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

It is easy to make a stupid (without knowledge or with erroneous knowledge) statement, yet it takes time and effort to unravel such 'simple' errors, for context, history, etc must be brought to light to show that the 'simple' error was indeed error.

 

[amadeus]

Only those interested in truth, such as I am, and others.

I am not interested in that which commonly passes as religion but is merely empty platitudes and well-sayin's like some are. Words and no substance of fact, vanity and not verity. Worthless.

I would say precisely the same thing my friend. I got to where I hated fellowship dinners because most people would talk about sports or other secular interests when I wanted to talk about the things of God. I still do, but now I no longer attend anywhere as none of the places I have visited have shown me anything I would want to be a regular part of... As you said: worthless!

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.​

The Word of God is truth, and yet there is counterfeit in the world, and we, who are lovers of God, shall continue to sound warning to all who will take heed, and to all who will refuse to heed. Post error, and truth will be given in exchange, exposing the darkness for what it is.

I have been retired from secular work for 19 years. While I have other interests, my primary interest is, and has been, God and the things of God. My approach is quite different than yours. I could not go your way if I wanted to... While I read a few other things, the only thing I read every day, seven days a week are my Bibles... in three languages. Unfortunately they are not the primary languages of the Bible as when I was working on languages I did not know God as I was to come to know Him. My mind still works but my body and my mind have slowed down considerable, but I am blessed in still be able to function at even my slow pace. For that I thank God.

I have not missed my morning time with God in many years. When I am caused to be late for some good reason I get with Him personally as soon as I can. He is first in my life. I hope that He is in yours.

Act_9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Act_17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.​

Therefore, we will continue to dispute, because we remember the words spoken beforehand, and those words, do not match the false words, and false epistles that continue to circulate:

Jud_1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

2Pe_3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
​

You complain (and whine and pine) about us, and that publicly. Yet, your complaint is even against Paul himself, who wrote Hebrews "in few words" (13 chapters!).

Heb_13:22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.
​

Your standard of judgment is hypocritical. Turn the mirror to yourself elder brother.

I apologize for having offended you. I know you are doing what seems right for you. What you write is beyond my ability to read carefully with understanding in the time I would have available for such things. It may be filled with good things, but I must proceed in the way that God leads me doing what He directs me to do. Unfortunately there is not much intersecting of our ways. By this I don't mean specific beliefs because I know little about yours. You write complex books and I could read them without slowing way down and without longer rest periods than are available. Hopefully you will be able to help someone draw closer to God.

I have never attended a SDA meeting. I have thought that I might since my retirement but my experience with other people from the SDA on the Internet has been similar to the one with you which decreased the priority of visiting them rather than others. The major exception is the one here known as @brakelite His witness here, now that I have no home church, has me considering a visit to one of your assemblies. I am sorry to say it, but if I do I hope to meet someone like him rather than like the other examples I have seen on the Internet. Outside the church and the forums I have only one real friend and he lives 50 miles away. Everyone else was in the place where I cannot return or they have preceded me in natural death. It would nice to find someone who would enjoy talking God over a cup of coffee once in a while.

 

[amadeus]

Jas_3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Perhaps you were right to post this for me. I don't like your style. When I was younger perhaps I could have done better with it. But... not understanding your point or purpose, I made a presumption with no real evidence to support it because I could sift through it all. I guess it would have been better to have remained silent. I do apologize and will try to stay away unless I have something more positive to say. I do try to always follow God, but as you see even after so many years, I still have my blind spots and my missteps.

 

[amadeus]

It isn't blindly, and I responded to erroneous statements with facts (documentedly so) of correction (just like this response). As for instance, see this response to yet another erroneous statement - Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

My responses on Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (so called) were in continued response to this error - Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

It is easy to make a stupid (without knowledge or with erroneous knowledge) statement, yet it takes time and effort to unravel such 'simple' errors, for context, history, etc must be brought to light to show that the 'simple' error was indeed error.

To me it is blindly that I look upon the voluminous pages of details instead of a simple communication that most readers could follow easily. I do look more to a very personal daily communication with God in and with the scriptures I can read myself rather than having to depend on someone else's translation. I hope the time you take is worthwhile for you and for others who can and will take the time to pour through the writings.

My own walk with God is very unorthodox in the eyes of many, but you have never expressed an interest in understanding it. My understanding of the scriptures comes through a very different method than yours. That much I know from the little I have read here. Take care and may God richly bless you as you strive to work His work!

 

[ReChoired]

... @brakelite His witness here, now that I have no home church, has me considering a visit to one of your assemblies. I am sorry to say it, but if I do I hope to meet someone like him rather than like the other examples I have seen on the Internet. Outside the church and the forums I have only one real friend and he lives 50 miles away. Everyone else was in the place where I cannot return or they have preceded me in natural death. It would nice to find someone who would enjoy talking God over a cup of coffee once in a while.

Many people make up the 'body', and each has a differing mind, a differing past. It is our relationship to God, even Jesus Christ, by the Holy Ghost/Spirit through the word, that binds these differing 'parts' together into one, just as the Bible (KJB) is a perfect example of this - many writers, differing stations in life, men and women, high and low, king to commoner, prophet to priest, shepherd to scribe, and so on, yet all united ('one') with 'one' voice of many waters. If you will not begrudge my methods, I will not begrudge yours. I do however point out error of theology in faith or practice when I see it, such as in this thread. If you will notice, I did not begin this thread, and was in another thread berated by another certain individual for not participating in more threads, and merely sticking to the ones I made ('babies' do need care after all, until they grow, after which they look more after themselves).

Since I am Seventh-day Adventist, I do not drink coffee (because of caffeine - a neuro-toxin), though there are purely herbal replacements that have no such thing in it, such as TeaChino, Roma, etc.

I do not mind talking about my Father in Heaven, or His Son or His Holy Ghost/Spirit, but that is not really so much the purpose of this thread, unless it comes up in relation to the topic, of 'modern versions' affecting such doctrine (which some do, such as the NWT of the WTS/JW, etc).

People might come to this thread looking for conversation on other subjects, or short response, but I came looking for evidence of persons claims, and to also be able to provide evidence, and/or documentation for those interested in the subject. I have several very thick books on the subject, yet even so, I spend a lot of time chasing 'rabbits' down, and it took me some time to track that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus mss references. Reading Lexicon or Interlinear or Concordance koine Greek, etc is nothing like actually looking at mss, codice, papyrus mss and their Hebrew, Syriac or koine Greek, as "B" and "aleph" are both Majescule (all caps) and crammed together with little to no spacing, in generally, 3 or 2 (in Psalms) columns and the headings are very faint. It took awhile looking through, but was able to procure and link to the evidence.

When people type, I take it personally to read through and respond as needful, and at times to everything.

 

[Hobie]

If what you say is true, than 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999 % of the scholars out there are worthy of death, as would just about every man in the world since it was first penned.

Well, what will happen to all those 'scholars' pushing evolution, need to be careful when it comes to things of God. But the scribes where very precise and took great in not changing the word, and I think most Bible scholars doing translations understood this responsibility, but its clear Hort and Westcott had a different purpose and thus the use of the Alexandrian manuscripts.

Now the real issue is why would any "scholars" make changes and deletions, especially when you could see it when compared to those manuscripts not from Alexandria. Well it becomes apparent, that when they made their copies, they made "corrections" that they thought better presented what the Scriptures should say. Some of their errors were clearly wrong, but others were more subtle like the slight word changes to take away the deity of Christ. Instead of just transcribing, they removed verses they didn't like and a word here and there as they tried to impose their views from Gnosticism. Now you can see the corruption of the text, as their copies differ not only from the vast majority of existing Scripture texts, but these writers differ even from the other Alexandrian Text, so they couldn't agree even with each other.

 

[ReChoired]

To me it is blindly that I look upon the voluminous pages of details instead of a simple communication that most readers could follow easily. I do look more to a very personal daily communication with God in and with the scriptures I can read myself rather than having to depend on someone else's translation. I hope the time you take is worthwhile for you and for others who can and will take the time to pour through the writings.

This thread is not about communication with God, per se. It is about versions of Bibles, and their source material, which requires documentation, evidence, history, citation, reference, details. Those uninterested in it, or unable to handle the detail, should refrain from interrupting, or de-railing (such as this present conversation (it is not on OP - at all, and frankly, and yet kindly, I would ask, to such, "Please step aside, and just listen or find another more suitable topic to your mind.")).

My own walk with God is very unorthodox in the eyes of many, but you have never expressed an interest in understanding it.

This is not the OP topic and should be discussed elsewhere.

My understanding of the scriptures comes through a very different method than yours.

Isaiah 8:20; Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20; Isaiah 28:10,13, etc. Scripture itself defines how it ought be understood. Therefore, it is not 'my' method. I am simply following that which scripture instructs me to do, even as I would read and follow the instructions on a complicated project.

That much I know from the little I have read here. Take care and may God richly bless you as you strive to work His work!

Only the day to come (and soon) will reveal all our work, whether it will have been with God, or against God. Everything I type will burn. Yet, that which may last forever, are the people that are brought into a saving relationship with the Truth (Persons, not a concept).

 

[ReChoired]

Perhaps you were right to post this for me.

It's a two-edged sword, one side for you, and another for me. So, when I post, it speaks to mine own heart also, by the Holy Ghost.

I don't like your style. ...

Mutual. Yet, it does not mean that I hate you, as a person. I actually like you (more so than others here in their arrogance and superiority complex (you, I actually think are not like that at all)). Might just be an 'age' difference thing though, and I do acknowledge your advancement on the road of life, ahead of myself therein, though I also think the background contributes to our present 'friction', more than that.

For the sake of the topic, and to also be kindly to our present conversation, so as not to derail, might I ask you, what 'version' of Bible/s do you daily (in morning) read, or devotion from? I am curious about that, and would you be interested in the backgrounds of said book/s and their translators, in what they believed, etc? Who backed the translation, where did the funds come from, etc, especially when involved in that which is to be copyrighted (as the love of money is the root of all evil).

As a small for instance, many persons use Vine's Expository, but most do not know that W. E. Vine was unitarian, in belief, and tainted his definitions. James Strong of the Strong's Concordance was tried for Heresy in the American Heresy trials. Consider the backgrounds of Westcott and Hort, Lightfoot, Tragelles, etc., and then compare these to those of the 47ish translators of the KJB, while comparing all to the life of Jesus. Powerful witness.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Am I a child to take your insulting jab as reason to engage in the asinine, even as I warned of it before you did it? You have already been answered in this thread, and you were the one to run to another thread and refuse to engage here on what is posted. Feel free to sit in your little corner firing all your arsenal into empty water, declaring victory, as like Kim Jong Un.

LoL. Good to have a chuckle first thing in the morning. Not to set you off any more than you are already, but there is nothing "chaotic" about that simple little thread at all. I just sense that you don't like the line of questioning so you are doing whatever you can to avoid having to address it. But so be it. Not the end of the world.

I post, in this thread, in response to error and for promotion of that which is truth, documentedly so (so much so, you haven't even engaged it).

And there's a reason for it. This entire discussion boils down to speculation until you get into rightly dividing texts where a blatant differentiation in theological meaning exists. I would post that thread here if you truly wanted to discuss it, but the truth is I think you're simply not interested.

Name-calling is the best response yourself and Oz can do to the material I presented? Ha! I am clean, free and clear, then. It is the sign of a weak, vapid and non-existent argument, that cannot stand upon documented, verifiable, evidence and must resort to piffling, hand-waving, gesturing and dismissal as 'conspiracy theories'

Name calling? Just because I used the word "conspiracy theory"? I think Oz was giving a correct assessment of where your position is coming from. At the risk of you thinking I'm defaming you in some way, I honestly think you're too uptight. I could say words like, "asinine, weak, vapid, and piffling" more resembled name-calling, but honestly it doesn't bother me like it does you. It doesn't even get my attention, other than to notice that you're getting a bit too heated.

I'm guessing you're only going to get offended if I continue, which wasn't my intention, so I guess I'll move on.

God bless, and have a great day.
Hidden

 

[brakelite]

The major exception is the one here known as @brakelite His witness here, now that I have no home church, has me considering a visit to one of your assemblies.

Okay, now I'm blushing. And I also hope that should you visit one of our assemblies you will find a welcome there.