Are good deeds and works the same thing?

[bbyrd009]

we use "works" to mean more than one thing, it seems, and some clarification might serve to further the endless debate of "faith v works," even though they aren't versus each other anyway. And i'm pretty sure the multiple scribes who have translated for us took advantage of this close relationship in the meanings to occlude the intent of various verses, "faith without works is dead" comes to mind, but i will have to do the exegesis (as in the faith/belief thread) later, unless you beat me to it

 

[Job]

I believe "works" is what someone does to accomplish the Will of God.


James 2
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Good deeds are basically the same thing.

Depending on how they are performed, both can accomplish the will of God.


o

 

[KBCid]

we use "works" to mean more than one thing, it seems, and some clarification might serve to further the endless debate of "faith v works," even though they aren't versus each other anyway.

If Christ is our example and he reflected the Father then should we not also reflect the good that the Father does?

Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For many of the jews the outward "works" were the way that they believed they could satisfy the demands of the law and when Christ came he expanded the meanings of the old law and showed people that it was not simply the visible things people do but also the invisible. We should always be on the inside the same as on the outside. Works or deeds that we do should reflect not only our Father but also how we actually are inside.

 

[Helen]

The disciples asked Jesus in John 6:29 - " What shall we do to work the works of God.Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

 

[bbyrd009]

all great, but (mostly) not addressing the op.

If a good deed covers many sins, and good deeds are in fact works, which it appears that they are, then how does that contest

This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

even though i detest that translation, but never mind that for now

 

[bbyrd009]

Good deeds are basically the same thing.

i guess so, although i learned that "works" were always "of the Law," as opposed to a good deed, which "covers many sins." So a dichotomy remains.

 

[bbyrd009]

The disciples asked Jesus in John 6:29 - " What shall we do to work the works of God.Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

this seems to invite "altar works" into legitimacy; iow, if one had faith (or even "believed on," like satan might be said to) in Christ, but never did what we consider necessary to be recognized as part of a Christian congregation, are they saved? Or a better way to frame the Q here would be

is this person lost because they did not do the altar works?

iow it is the works i am trying to get a better def of; are those even works?

 

[bbyrd009]

when Christ came he expanded the meanings of the old law and showed people that it was not simply the visible things people do but also the invisible.

hmm. What are "the invisible things" that a person might do? By way of expanding on your premise here, as i'm not sure what you mean there.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

For me, visible works produced by faith is believing what God says, in the midst of everything that says otherwise. I hope he doesn't mind but @Stranger posted this a while back, and for me: the testimony he shared with us spoke of works produced by faith...

Strangers words, not mine: "Courage is not the absence of fear, but is doing your duty in the face of fear. Staying your position when everything in you says 'run'. So, though all else falls around me, I trust God in the midst of these things falling around me. I don't think 'rest' is the absence of stress. It is the ability to stay in a stressful situation, which you feel, because of your faith and the Spirit of God supporting you. You feel the stress, yet God over rides it with His assurance and confidence."


Abraham could have doubted every promise God made, but instead he believed what God said(faith) which produced action(works) in the midst of what could have seemed like the complete opposite of what God had said would happen: by Abraham being told to sacrifice Issac. Whether it is us trusting God by answering His command to give to a brethren what is our last loaf of bread or last coat, we have faith God will provide the provision and cheerfully surrender(works) knowing our needs will be met. Or works could mean being grounded in the promise of what His word says; in the midst of a storm that threatens the promise.

Hebrews 10:23 KJV
[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised


Faith produces works.

Visible works that display His glory!

 

[Helen]

Great post by Victory....
Yes, from God's word I see that the works that count in Gods eyes are via the Spirit.
( for the fruit of the Spirit is Love. Joy, Peace.......etc) = The work of believing , and the fruit that comes from it.
If God gives us a nudge and says " Send $300 to so and so" we do.
If He says - "Invite a different so and so for a meal" we do....Or go over and pray for that person. We do.
Dead works are doing what "we" think are "Christian-things" ( religious) just because we think that is what God wants!
Being kind to people is something that is just the nature of God flowing through us.
But the " Gold ,silver and precious stones" kind of works , are born out of our innermost being being connected to God.
Any seeming "good thing" we do - for the reason of earning position or something with God...is dead because it came from us, not Him.
Like- " I will get up an hour early and spend it in prayer" ...is the wood, hay or stubble , if God did not do the prompting to do so. That is religious thinking.
" I do to get" = dead.
" I do because I love and are led by Him"= life and godliness.

This may be a load of twaddle....but this is how I find it in the scriptures.

 

[KBCid]

hmm. What are "the invisible things" that a person might do? By way of expanding on your premise here, as i'm not sure what you mean there.

It would be that which cannot be observed by outward appearance.

Matt 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The mosaic law was not in its existing form able to convey the intent of the law which is why it was done away with in its simple form however, Christ came and expanded the intent and meaning of the old law to conform with the new testament. As you can see in the verses above it is now adultery (a sin) if you even look on a woman with lust because it is opposed to the intent of the two commandments that should matter most to a Christian;

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[KBCid]

this seems to invite "altar works" into legitimacy; iow, if one had faith (or even "believed on," like satan might be said to) in Christ, but never did what we consider necessary to be recognized as part of a Christian congregation, are they saved? Or a better way to frame the Q here would be "is this person lost because they did not do the altar works?"
iow it is the works i am trying to get a better def of; are those even works?

Works are essentially the physical actions we can perform with our bodies and these works are not limited to what you call alter works. The intent of the scripture about "believe on him whom he hath sent" has much greater meaning than simply believing that Christ exists. The belief intended by the scripture is that we believe he is and that all of his words are to be obeyed. You cannot say you are Christ's and still knowingly commit sins. There was a saying I heard many times as a child where it was stated that "Catholics sin all week and ask for forgiveness on sunday" but this is actually a common conceptual error for most religious sects.

There are examples given in scripture about belief in him and failing to perform the works;
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

You cannot simply believe it.... you must live it otherwise you will not reflect our heavenly father.

 

[bbyrd009]

The belief intended by the scripture is that we believe he is and that all of his words are to be obeyed.

wadr if you go look, that is not a belief being written of, that is "faith," being misrepresented. But i guess the two are synonymous to most people.

Anyway, nice post. What are "works of the Law" in your opinion? Many seem to believe now that all one must do to be a Christian is make an altar profession, i guess, and they seem to strenuously resist "works of the Law."

 

[bbyrd009]

But the children of God have been asked to bare fruit. Some equate this to good works in religion. I don't. I equate it to teaching the gospel of grace so that the Holy Spirit can lead others to a saving knowledge that God has already paid for their sin condition.

 

[bbyrd009]

Circumcision is considered a "work of the law," but it seems to me that good deeds done out of love are being construed as "works" by the Faith Alone crowd.

 

[KBCid]

wadr if you go look, that is not a belief being written of, that is "faith," being misrepresented. But i guess the two are synonymous to most people. Anyway, nice post.

What is faith?
Faith is the "belief" in that which you cannot see or for some people those things beyond the ability of science to test so, the essence of faith is "belief". You can find dictionary definitions that exchange the two words and do provide the intent of scripture.

Belief
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof
3. confidence; faith; trust
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith
the definition of belief

Now for those people who witnessed Christ and the miracles performed, those subjects would not be belief based but, rather knowledge since they were observed however consider the statement by Christ about Thomas;

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

So belief, believe, believed do in fact interchange with faith based on the bibles own usages.

What are "works of the Law" in your opinion? Many seem to believe now that all one must do to be a Christian is make an altar profession, i guess, and they seem to strenuously resist "works of the Law."

Works of the law were those points within the mosaic law that people would perform with the idea that the performance of the law was sufficient to satisfy what God wanted so that they could gain eternal life. An example of a work of the law is the sacrifice of animals to cover the sins committed. Circumcision is another work of the law .... "a work / outward performance defined by the words of the mosaic law"
To be a real "CRISTian" one would be following the example of Christ and all the words he spoke (Christ lived what he spoke). You cannot even remotely call yourself a Christian if you knowingly commit the same sins day to day and you cannot call yourself a Christian if you do not love the Father with your heart and soul more than anything / anyone else.

Now if you do Love the Father and his Son more than anything else then you will reflect the intent of the two greatest commandments in both (inner) mind and (outward) deeds because you will be one in purpose just as the Father and Christ are.
If you were to see someone in need of help and you gave help grudgingly then you are not going to get any credit from Christ but, you may get extra credit from other people who can only see you from the outside.
If you are married and see another beautiful woman and you do not lust her in your mind and you also do not commit actual physical adultery with her then you would be fulfilling the new covenant commandments. etc. etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

You can find dictionary definitions that exchange the two words and do provide the intent of scripture.

sure, and tares are just weeds now, too.

i'll pass, ty, little kids "believe" in the tooth fairy, and the scribitude of even Strong's is plenty well documented, and dictionaries too

but don't get me wrong, you are completely right if you want to conflate the two, even (our translations of) Scripture do; now. But see that tares are just weeds to you now, ok, and that is not right, nonono, not even very close. tares are a cash crop

ps, Shepherd's Chapel still has some original Strong's left
why they aren't asking $100 a copy i dunno

 

[bbyrd009]

So belief, believe, believed do in fact interchange with faith based on the bibles own usages.

until you go look in the Lex and find pistis instead of the other words that = beliefs, yes.

so then a valid argument is made that belief (faith) is different from beliefs, but imo this is a really bad way to get folks associating the two, and the only way these come down to us is scribes.

so fwiw i would highly recommend that even when you read beliefs now, i would be Lexing that, and has anyone else noticed how google searching a v with the word faith in it--just pick one you're fam with--leads you ultimately to the verse with faith replaced by belief? Except "faith comes by hearing," do any other one

i think i even started a thread on it here? maybe not here. scary stuff though, you ask me. whatever

 

[bbyrd009]

the definition of belief

from a whore, yes

 

[bbyrd009]

Works of the law were those points within the mosaic law that people would perform with the idea that the performance of the law was sufficient to satisfy what God wanted so that they could gain eternal life. An example of a work of the law is the sacrifice of animals to cover the sins committed. Circumcision is another work of the law .... "a work / outward performance defined by the words of the mosaic law"

yes, but i mean now, what are "works of the law" now, to us
Christians do not (at least physically) sacrifice at altars, etc. not physically