Are good deeds and works the same thing?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,159
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
yes, but i mean now, what are "works of the law" now, to us
Christians do not (at least physically) sacrifice at altars, etc. not physically

Living under the New Covenant but trying to " do good" so that you will be counted righteous. We " do good" because we have been declared righteous, not to earn it!
One is legal works, one is spiritual works.
Clinging to a " works of the law" mentality ....spits on the finished work of Jesus....by thinking that somehow we can add to and improve upon what Jesus did!
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
yes, but i mean now, what are "works of the law" now, to us
Christians do not (at least physically) sacrifice at altars, etc. not physically

Work of the law were the mosaic law. Mosaic law was given as a guide to help give comprehension of the royal law for Gods people. The only way a gentile can correctly perform the actions directed by the mosaic law would be to become a Jew and perform the actions defined in the book of the law written by Moses. Remember most of the words of Christ were directed to a Jewish audience, Christ was a Jew sent to find the lost sheep of Israel, his message was brought to and given to the people of the first covenant to fulfill it and begin the new covenant.
As an example Christ was the fulfillment of the Jewish Passover. In fulfilling it the Passover ended so if any jews were to continue to follow the mosaic law of the Passover would be a waste of time since those actions were not founded on a belief / faith in Christ and the promises he made.
Notice this prophecy and who it is directed too;
Deut 18:15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

As the apostles keep pointing out in their messages to the Jews they want them to convert to the new covenant;
Acts 3:17And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

So.... essentially unless you become a Jew and try to cover / remove your sins by following the tenets of the Jewish / Mosaic law you cannot actually perform any of the works of the law that were given to them. A decent understanding of the works of the law can be found in Hebrews 9;

1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
sure, and tares are just weeds now, too. i'll pass, ty, little kids "believe" in the tooth fairy, and the scribitude of even Strong's is plenty well documented, and dictionaries too

anyone can hold a belief / faith in just about anything. It is ultimately a description of the existence of a form of free willed mental rationale. Keep in mind that were it not possible for you to be able to form and hold a belief / faith in anything other than God then in fact it would have no free will meaning when you would have a belief / faith in God.

but don't get me wrong, you are completely right if you want to conflate the two, even (our translations of) Scripture do; now. But see that tares are just weeds to you now, ok, and that is not right, nonono, not even very close. tares are a cash crop ps, Shepherd's Chapel still has some original Strong's left :)
why they aren't asking $100 a copy i dunno

I am aware of how translations have had a corrupting effect on Gods word but not everything is in error. The intent of the verses is the only important aspect that must be conveyed.
Tares are not anything different to me than what they were intended to represent in God's words. The wheat and tares symbolism is actually quite deep.
The tares are essentially "darnel" and the darnel plant looks like wheat but is in nearly every way except looks in opposition to the important properties of wheat. This is how the people of the world are when it comes to their relationship with God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
So.... essentially unless you become a Jew and try to cover / remove your sins by following the tenets of the Jewish / Mosaic law you cannot actually perform any of the works of the law that were given to them.
then what does the Grace Alone crowd mean when they say that a Christian cannot get to heaven by works?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Keep in mind that were it not possible for you to be able to form and hold a belief / faith in anything other than God then in fact it would have no free will meaning when you would have a belief / faith in God.
ah well i'm currently debating the meanings of those two terms also, imo one can have faith in God, but only a belief that they are going to heaven when they die, for example. So i have to like translate what you say, and that sentence is not entirely clear to me, i wonder if you would rephrase it, ty
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
then what does the Grace Alone crowd mean when they say that a Christian cannot get to heaven by works?

Well, most of the grace people believe that they are saved by grace as soon as they hold a positive belief in Christ and that nothing they can do or say holds any value towards being saved by God however, that is not the message given by Christ from the father.
Now let me also be quite clear here; "no one can trade the works of the mosaic law for salvation" because the mosaic law itself was not the way to salvation. The mosaic law had a purpose of course but the Jews thought that it alone was all inclusive for gaining the promise of God.

Here is a post I found awhile back that appears to have the correct understanding in it;

A common misconception about the Old Testament way of salvation is that Jews were saved by keeping the Law. But we know from Scripture that that is not true. Galatians 3:11 says, “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” Some might want to dismiss this passage as only applying to the New Testament, but Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4—salvation by faith, apart from the Law was an Old Testament principle. Paul taught that the purpose of the Law was to serve as a “tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Galatians 3:24). Also, in Romans 3:20 Paul makes the point that keeping the Law did not save either Old or New Testament Jews because “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law.” The Law was never intended to save anyone; the purpose of the Law was to make us “conscious of sin.”
What was the Old Testament way of salvation?

Now the key understanding you should gain from this quote is the words of God which state clearly and unequivocally that ""The righteous shall live by faith"".......
Do you grasp the depth of meaning behind God's words that "The righteous shall live by faith"? The righteous people are those who by (inner) thought and (outer) deed reflect both the Father and Christ.... and since people who continue to sin the same sins daily, weekly and yearly are not righteous then, they are not part of those considered to be righteous that live by faith.
A righteous man will be righteous inside and perform righteous deeds / works because it would be a natural normal thing for a righteous person to do and not for the purpose of trying to trade it for salvation.

Look again at some of the words of God in respect to inner and outer conduct for those who would profess to be CHRIST....ian;
Matt 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If there was no (inner and outer) actionable requirements to being saved then the scripture above would be lies.
 

KBCid

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2011
764
292
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ah well i'm currently debating the meanings of those two terms also, imo one can have faith in God, but only a belief that they are going to heaven when they die, for example. So i have to like translate what you say, and that sentence is not entirely clear to me, i wonder if you would rephrase it, ty

Here is the meanings of the terms I used;
faith
  1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
  2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
belief
  1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
  2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
If there are any other words that hold the same meanings as defined in the above definitions then that would be the extent of rephrasing I could accomplish.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen