Are "good" unbelievers dead in the grave like unbelievers and evil people? (John 5:28-29)

[Patrick1966]

If someone has DIED, their DEAD.
Simple as that.
Beyond is the RESURRECTION.

I'm interpreting "age-during" as meaning NOW, in this age. Am I wrong?

John 3:16-17
Young's Literal Translation
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[Patrick1966]

As my Church's Tech Guy, I've had to work more funerals (excuse me, Services of Death and Resurrection) than I care to remember. (We're an old church, and we went through a spell where we were dropping like flies.) I remember wondering why the laity talked about the dearly departed "going to Heaven", but the scriptures that were read talked about the resurrection of the dead. 'Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.' (John 11:25.) Wait a minute. What's going on here?

When God was putting things back together after they'd been broken, I was browsing in the local Christian bookstore (an institution that has long ago went out of business) and I ran across a book by NT Wright called Surprised By Hope, the title being an echo of CS Lewis's Surprised By Joy. Wright pointed out that the ultimate Christian hope as written in the New Testament was not "Going to Heaven to be with God", it was Resurrection into eternal life in the αἰῶνι τῷ ἐρχομένῳ, the Aion (Age) to Come. I was involved with a small group Bible study at the time, and I realized that Wright was right. But it was like something I'd always known; I just couldn't put it into words. Somewhere along the road between the empty tomb and now, we lost that hope.

Which is a long way to say that I think (but I could be wrong!) that everybody, believer and unbeliever alike, dies and awaits the Resurrection. If you're looking for hope for "good" non-believers in the Resurrection Judgement, I would point to the Sheep-and-Goat parable in which the Son of Man rewards those who showed compassion to "the least of these My 'brothers and sisters'" (Matthew 25:40), whoever those may be. If that be so (and assuming the Son of Man considers me His brother), I have some unbelieving friends for whom I would ask mercy. But you won't go broke long-term betting that I'm wrong.

Our final destination is with God in the new Earth. In the meantime, I believe, Godly people go to Heaven.

 

[Lambano]

Our final destination is with God in the new Earth. In the meantime, I believe, Godly people go to Heaven.

Okay.

Your main reason for believing in a heavenly interim state is John 3:16, He who believes in me will not ἀπόληται "be destroyed", the same root word used in Matthew 10:28, Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

My counter-argument would be John 11:25, I am the Resurrection and the Life. If anyone believes in me, though he may die, yet shall he live. (I had to do another funeral last Sunday.) So, my understanding is that Jesus's promise is that those who believe in Him will not be destroyed in the final Judgement. Not that we'll never experience death (we will), but we will receive Life in the Age to come.

Will we experience something between Death and Resurrection? Who knows? The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man may support the Catholic doctrine of a Purgatory in Hades (not Gehenna) or in "Abe's Bosom". And the Tribulation Martyrs may have a white robe party in the ball room underneath God's throne.

Anyway, that's what I believe and why I believe it.

 

[Patrick1966]

Not that we'll never experience death (we will),

Will we experience death if we're living when Jesus returns?

 

[Patrick1966]

Okay.

Your main reason for believing in a heavenly interim state is John 3:16, He who believes in me will not ἀπόληται "be destroyed", the same root word used in Matthew 10:28, Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

My counter-argument would be John 11:25, I am the Resurrection and the Life. If anyone believes in me, though he may die, yet shall he live. (I had to do another funeral last Sunday.) So, my understanding is that Jesus's promise is that those who believe in Him will not be destroyed in the final Judgement. Not that we'll never experience death (we will), but we will receive Life in the Age to come.

Will we experience something between Death and Resurrection? Who knows? The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man may support the Catholic doctrine of a Purgatory in Hades (not Gehenna). And the Tribulation Martyrs may have a white robe party in the ball room underneath God's throne.

Anyway, that's what I believe and why I believe it.

So many people have had heavenly NDES that I believe that Godly people go immediately to Heaven. What would be the purpose of leaving them dead in the ground?

 

[quietthinker]

What would be the purpose of leaving them dead in the ground?

They are 'asleep' so to speak, as Jesus calls it, so that we all get to the party together. :)

Interestingly, there is no consciousness of the passing of time between the moment one closes ones eyes in death (sleep) and when one is resurrected at the last trump. It will be the most wonderful thing. All God's people who have died (fallen asleep) throughout the ages will a moment later in their consciousness awake from the grave with immortality bestowed on them. See 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

You wanna know what happens? Paul tells us. What has been a 'mystery' for peoples Paul now clears up....no more mystery.
Go on Patrick, make the effort and read the above scripture with its context and if you don't agree with it, please explain to me why. :)

 

[Lambano]

So many people have had heavenly NDES that I believe that Godly people go immediately to Heaven. What would be the purpose of leaving them dead in the ground?

Probably because their room's not ready yet.

“In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you."

THe NDE evidence is interesting, though.

 

[Always Believing]

John 3:16 tells us that those that believe in Jesus will NEVER die, so we know that believers will be in Heaven and will be resurrected to eternal life in a new body on the last day. But what about "good" people that didn't follow Christ? Are they dead in the ground but will be resurrected to eternal life too? John 5:28-29 seems to say so.

John 5:28-29 esv
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

All dead bodies are still dead bodies, until our resurrection to life or punishment.

It's the soul that is either in hell or in the presence of the Lord in heaven.

Jesus' body is the only one resurrected from the dead so far.

 

[bluedragon]

then why a resurrection? where/ when 'this mortal shall put on immortality, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 , 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18........if the righteous dead are already in heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable,and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,with a loud command, with the voice of the archangeland with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The resurrection joins the soul with a new body. When Jesus stated that Lazaras slept, he used terminology the Disciples could understand. These were Jews, not Christians yet.
Then there is the use of Sheol to describe where Jesus went for three days. One room to free the prisoners in Abraham's Bossum or Paradise. He never went to Hades ....The soul doesn't sleep.

 

[quietthinker]

The resurrection joins the soul with a new body. When Jesus stated that Lazaras slept, he used terminology the Disciples could understand. These were Jews

The disciples didn't know what he meant, he had to spell it out for them 'Lazarus is dead'......check the account!

Then there is the use of Sheol to describe where Jesus went for three days. One room to free the prisoners in Abraham's Bossum or Paradise. He never went to Hades ....The soul doesn't sleep.

You have misunderstood what is being said.

 

[bluedragon]

The disciples didn't know what he meant, he had to spell it out for them 'Lazarus is dead'......check the account!

You have misunderstood what is being said.

You should read the account of the Rich Man and the Poor man. The Rich Man is across the divide between Abraham's Bossum and Hades ....they cannot touch, they can speak but cannot come into contact. Jesus didn't go into Hades. I don't care what the Apostle's Creed written hundreds of years later has to say .....

You didn't read, that's why you misunderstood.

 

[quietthinker]

You should read the account of the Rich Man and the Poor man. The Rich Man is across the divide between Abraham's Bossum and Hades ....they cannot touch, they can speak but cannot come into contact. Jesus didn't go into Hades. I don't care what the Apostle's Creed written hundreds of years later has to say .....

You didn't read, that's why you misunderstood.

The story of the rich and poor man is a story (parable) to make a point (don't miss the point). It is not an historical event such as the raising of Lazarus (the brother of Mary and Martha) from the dead.

 

[bluedragon]

The disciples didn't know what he meant, he had to spell it out for them 'Lazarus is dead'......check the account!

You have misunderstood what is being said.

You should read the account of the Rich Man and the Poor man. The Rich Man is across the divide between Abraham's Bossum and Hades ....they cannot touch, they can speak but cannot come into contact. Jesus didn't go into Hades. I don't care what the Apostle's Creed written hundreds of years late has to say .....

The story of the rich and poor man is a story (parable) to make a point (don't miss the point). It is not an historical event such as the raising of Lazarus (the brother of Mary and Martha) from the dead.

The parable by Jesus was an exact account of what was the point of Sheol ....Once again. Deny that Jesus said that Lazrus was escorted by angels into Sheol .....call Jesus a liar in your vain attempt to distort and detract from fact .....If Jesus went to Sheol to free the prisoners as told by him ....I think you need a little more time in Luke ......

 

[Behold]

John 3:16 tells us that those that believe in Jesus will NEVER die,

The verse says that the born again wont "perish".

This is related to ..

Jesus said..>>"all that believe in me, i give unto you eternal life and you shall never go to hell (Perish).

The Spirit in a person, never dies.

So.... = IF the Spirit in a person has done this..

Jesus said.....>"You must be born again" then after you die, heaven awaits.

If you are never born again, Then Hell , awaits.

 

[face2face]

Sorry brother, I disagree. John 3:16 is clear. Believers never die.

Yes, they have the promise of life is on offer to those who believe. All die in Adam!