Are "good" unbelievers dead in the grave like unbelievers and evil people? (John 5:28-29)

[Patrick1966]

John 3:16 tells us that those that believe in Jesus will NEVER die, so we know that believers will be in Heaven and will be resurrected to eternal life in a new body on the last day. But what about "good" people that didn't follow Christ? Are they dead in the ground but will be resurrected to eternal life too? John 5:28-29 seems to say so.

John 5:28-29 esv
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

 

[quietthinker]

John 3:16 tells us that those that believe in Jesus will NEVER die, so we know that believers will be in Heaven and will be resurrected to eternal life in a new body on the last day. But what about "good" people that didn't follow Christ? Are they dead in the ground but will be resurrected to eternal life too? John 5:28-29 seems to say so.

John 5:28-29 esv
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

The death people experience here and now Jesus calls a sleep. The story of Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha makes that clear. Check the story in John 11:1-15

The first death is the story of all who have died both good and bad. This first death is the death from which all will be resurrected at their appointed resurrections....ie, either the first or the second resurrection.

When Jesus says believers will never die in John 5, he is not saying they will go to heaven but rather they are in the grave awaiting the resurrection when Jesus returns in the clouds. The second death (reserved for the wicked only) is the final elimination of all and any which love and practices a lie ......the devil and his angels included. Revelation 21:8 calls it the Lake of Fire.

 

[Patrick1966]

When Jesus says believers will never die in John 5, he is not saying they will go to heaven but rather they are in the grave awaiting the resurrection

A believer goes to Heaven after death wherein they enjoy it while awaiting the physical resurrection of their bodies, right? After all, John 3:16 says believers never die, right?

 

[quietthinker]

A believer goes to Heaven after death wherein they enjoy it while awaiting the physical resurrection of their bodies, right? After all, John 3:16 says believers never die, right?

Believers do not die the second death (permanent elimination) but they all 'sleeping the dust of the earth till the call is given to rise. (just like Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha was 'awakened' out of his 'sleep' as Jesus called it)

All believers and non believers are dead (asleep in the dust of the earth) until they are called out......'some to everlasting life, some to everlasting death' (elimination) Daniel 12:1-2

The idea that people go somewhere immediately when they die (sleep)...heaven or hell is an adoption from pagan views.

 

[Patrick1966]

Sorry brother, I disagree. John 3:16 is clear. Believers never die.

 

[quietthinker]

Sorry brother, I disagree. John 3:16 is clear. Believers never die.

then why a resurrection? where/ when 'this mortal shall put on immortality, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 , 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18........if the righteous dead are already in heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:50-55
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable,and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,with a loud command, with the voice of the archangeland with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Enoch111]

Are they dead in the ground but will be resurrected to eternal life too?

Only dead bodies are dead in the ground. The souls and spirits of the unsaved are in Hades. And they will not receive eternal life but eternal damnation. So how many times does this have to be explained to people? It is "resurrection unto damnation".

 

[quietthinker]

Only dead bodies are dead in the ground. The souls and spirits of the unsaved are in Hades. And they will not receive eternal life but eternal damnation. So how many times does this have to be explained to people? It is "resurrection unto damnation".

because your interpretation is faulty! You assume souls and spirits are entities and independent of the body.

 

[Aunty Jane]

John 3:16 tells us that those that believe in Jesus will NEVER die, so we know that believers will be in Heaven and will be resurrected to eternal life in a new body on the last day. But what about "good" people that didn't follow Christ? Are they dead in the ground but will be resurrected to eternal life too? John 5:28-29 seems to say so.

There are two separate resurrections spoken about in the scriptures.....Revelation 20:6 identifies those of Christ's elect who will rule with him in heaven...it says that these are resurrected "first". In order to be "first", there has to be a 'second'....

John 3:16 contains a contrast between those who will gain everlasting life, and those whose death will also be "everlasting".

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

To "perish" means
"to destroy....

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin." (Strongs)

So this verse includes the destiny of both those who believe in Jesus as God's Messiah......and those who do not.
Everlasting life or everlasting death...there is nothing else.

John 5:28-29 esv
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

This future resurrection is back to life on earth....Jesus calls ALL the dead from their graves....some are granted life and other come under judgment, not for what they did before their death, but they are judged on what they do from that day forward.....their sins are forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice, so they are resurrected with a clean slate.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Only dead bodies are dead in the ground. The souls and spirits of the unsaved are in Hades. And they will not receive eternal life but eternal damnation. So how many times does this have to be explained to people? It is "resurrection unto damnation".

There is no Bible verse that says this. A "soul" in scripture is NOT a disembodied spirit....it is a living, breathing creature......the only "spirits" spoken about in the Bible are either angels or demons.

Humans are mortals, not immortals. When a soul dies....they are actually dead. (Ezek 18:4)
God restores their life by resurrection....which is a restoration of life, not a continuation of it.

 

[Lambano]

And nobody wants to admit that the Biblical witness is inconsistent if not incoherent - it talks about psuchikos bodies that are powered by souls and pneumatikos resurrection bodies that are powered by spirits and God breathed into the dirt and the man became a living soul and there was a rich man who was in torment in Hades/Sheol while Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom and body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna and Jesus preached to the souls in prison and what the hell is "Tartaroo" anyway? and what we are sleeps in the ground until it is resurrected and today you will be with me in paradise and the outer darkness and the lake of fire and the martyrs stay under the altar in white robes until the Resurrection and to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...

Oh well. It keeps the discussion flowing.

 

[Patrick1966]

And nobody wants to admit that the Biblical witness...

Are you referring to JW?

 

[Robert Gwin]

John 3:16 tells us that those that believe in Jesus will NEVER die, so we know that believers will be in Heaven and will be resurrected to eternal life in a new body on the last day. But what about "good" people that didn't follow Christ? Are they dead in the ground but will be resurrected to eternal life too? John 5:28-29 seems to say so.

John 5:28-29 esv
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Yes since the resurrection of them has not yet occurred, they are still dead in the grave. The resurrection of them should begin just after the Kingdom comes.

 

[Bob Estey]

John 3:16 tells us that those that believe in Jesus will NEVER die, so we know that believers will be in Heaven and will be resurrected to eternal life in a new body on the last day. But what about "good" people that didn't follow Christ? Are they dead in the ground but will be resurrected to eternal life too? John 5:28-29 seems to say so.

John 5:28-29 esv
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

To be good I think you have to obey the two great commandments: Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. If this definition is correct, there are no good unbelievers.

 

[Jay Ross]

A believer goes to Heaven after death wherein they enjoy it while awaiting the physical resurrection of their bodies, right? After all, John 3:16 says believers never die, right?

No, it does not say that. What John 3:16 is telling us is that Believers in Christ will not perish at the time of judgement but will be saved. Those who do not believe in the Son of God will perish in the Lake of fire because they will perish there.

Here is what is said in the NKJV: -

John 3:14-17: - 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​

No where in these verses does it tell us that the Saints when they die a physical death, when they beath their last breath in this life, that they will go immediately to heaven to be with God.

Sorry but you have some weird theology which is not scriptural.

 

[Patrick1966]

No, it does not say that. What John 3:16 is telling us is that Believers in Christ will not perish at the time of judgement but will be saved. Those who do not believe in the Son of God will perish in the Lake of fire because they will perish there.

Here is what is said in the NKJV: -

John 3:14-17: - 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.​

No where in these verses does it tell us that the Saints when they die a physical dead, when they beath their last breath in this life, that they will go immediately to heaven to be with God.

Sorry but you have some weird theology which is not scriptural.

I have weird theology? You deny the most basic scripture in Christianity.

 

[Jay Ross]

I have weird theology? You deny the most basic scripture in Christianity.

Really, all that I did was post the verses from the NKJV and repeated what they teach us. I did not change it to suit my theology as you so often do.

 

[Lambano]

As my Church's Tech Guy, I've had to work more funerals (excuse me, Services of Death and Resurrection) than I care to remember. (We're an old church, and we went through a spell where we were dropping like flies.) I remember wondering why the laity talked about the dearly departed "going to Heaven", but the scriptures that were read talked about the resurrection of the dead. 'Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.' (John 11:25.) Wait a minute. What's going on here?

When God was putting things back together after they'd been broken, I was browsing in the local Christian bookstore (an institution that has long ago went out of business) and I ran across a book by NT Wright called Surprised By Hope, the title being an echo of CS Lewis's Surprised By Joy. Wright pointed out that the ultimate Christian hope as written in the New Testament was not "Going to Heaven to be with God", it was Resurrection into eternal life in the αἰῶνι τῷ ἐρχομένῳ, the Aion (Age) to Come. I was involved with a small group Bible study at the time, and I realized that Wright was right. But it was like something I'd always known; I just couldn't put it into words. Somewhere along the road between the empty tomb and now, we lost that hope.

Which is a long way to say that I think (but I could be wrong!) that everybody, believer and unbeliever alike, dies and awaits the Resurrection. If you're looking for hope for "good" non-believers in the Resurrection Judgement, I would point to the Sheep-and-Goat parable in which the Son of Man rewards those who showed compassion to "the least of these My 'brothers and sisters'" (Matthew 25:40), whoever those may be. If that be so (and assuming the Son of Man considers me His brother), I have some unbelieving friends for whom I would ask mercy. But you won't go broke long-term betting that I'm wrong.

 

[mailmandan]

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtained salvation but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart. We must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture.

Doing good flows from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

 

[theJW]

If someone has DIED, their DEAD.
Simple as that.
Beyond is the RESURRECTION.