Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Bible Highlighter]

To our readers here:

Do not agree with cult followers (even if there may be some truth you may agree with involving the Bible like God being one). Do not become friends with cult followers. Do not give acceptance to cult followers. For they are following a system of abuse. For if there was a group that indulged in drunk driving, do not seek to be their friends but correct their wrong ways. Any approval to be pals means you are not concerned about the horrible abuse and destruction that is going on by their false ways. Stand divided against them. Yes, we can love them and be respectful and loving, and we should pray for them, but do not love their beliefs or think we have common ground with them. We don't. JW's are a cult. Cults are destructive, and evil and bad. Just look at Jim Jones and his cult. His followers committed suicide willingly.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I believe today we are living in the last days and it is hard to find true believers who are striving to follow Jesus and treat sin as if it can destroy our souls. Why? Well, I believe we are in the last days described in 2 Timothy 3:1-9. There are few who are walking according to His Word. So finding believers of a similar mindset is extremely difficult. But nothing is impossible with God. If we keep seeking and knocking.

Anyways, the faith I describe is simply called believing all of the King James Bible by faith without changing any of it based on what others say. If you allow the Bible to simply speak for itself and you believe ALL of it (even, then you will start to see changes in your life). Romans 10:17 says, Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. Hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossible to please him (GOD). So start by believing all of the Bible. The Scriptures say, seek ye out the book of the Lord (Isaiah 43:16). Do you have it?

Unfortunately, you have been taught that the King James Bible is inaccurate. But you guys (the JWs) used to use this Bible for a hundred years before you created your own bible translation that caters to your extra biblical pet theologies. This is the real reason you created your JW translation. The King James Bible you guys used for 100 years approximately was not enough because it did not fit the ramblings of your JW leaders.

Good! I am so glad we agree that we are in the last days, right at the end in fact. Which of course means Jesus is coming soon! Hooray.

I was raised a Baptist sir, and at one time I thought the King James was the Bible, perhaps you do as well. The truth is, it is simply a Version of the Bible. I had a great zeal and love for God as you display yourself BH, so I accepted a Bible study with the Witnesses as I simply loved God and wanted to know more about Him. When I had to give my first through 3rd Bible reading in front of the congregation I used my King James Bible, and in fact still have it, was a gift from one of the teachers given to me in 1968, laying right here in front of me on my desk.

So why have I changed my view on it? Because of what they said to me? Yes, to a degree. People say things sir, you say things to me, and I say things to you, some of them true, perhaps others not so true, that is simply the truth. So when I tell you something, I believe it is true, so the truth is it either is or isn't, correct. So what is your role when I tell you something? Acts 17:11 is a great encourager sir, if what I tell you is true or not, prove it to yourself. We live in the age of information, and the things I say are easily proven. Blue letter Bible is a very valuable tool to see what originally occurred in the Bible with definitions for all the words, and the way it is used in your King James Version. You might be surprised to know that the same word like Sheol is translated 3 different ways, which led to people not really understanding what hell actually is. But with that tool, it is easy to find out, it is simply the abode of the dead sir.

So when I tell you something, and you have proven to yourself it is fictitious then let me know and what you found on it, that is our responsibility as loving Christians looking out for our neighbors.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This is a standard tactic by JWs and false cults. Instead of dealing with the challenge text that refutes your false belief, you run off into other verses skewed from the JW mindset and or from the JW translation.

Again, you first need to deal with these truths before we can discuss these other verses:

Col 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that "... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus was Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory...".

If Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, how can Mt 25:31 say, "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and ALL the angels with him, ...". Since "all the angels" would certainly include Michael the Archangel, is it possible that Jesus could return with himself?

Source:
Stumper questions Jehovah's Witnesses do not like to be asked!

Do you know what Archangel means sir?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you know what Archangel means sir?

Do you know how to go back and deal with points that you are ignoring, sir?

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are moving on to another point without really addressing my original points first. I am happy to address you point, but you first need to face the fact of the original points I made to you. Once you do so, I will address you point.

I said, I quote:

“Your organization places their own words on the same level as Scripture. If your organization is lying to you then they have proven to not be God's true followers and therefore, you are following a destructive cult and that is a salvation issue. Look at the abuses of the JW religion online. People have left the Watch Tower because of the abuse by them. Granted, it is unfortunate many of them abandoned even the Bible, but the point here is that your JW religion is not as you are making it out to be. You can see testimonies of people who came out of the Watch Tower and read their stories of the abuse. That does not sound like the true followers of God to me if they abuse people. How do you discount this kind of thing? Do you just say they are all lying? Watch their testimonies on YouTube and or read about them online. Get the real facts and do not blindly follow your leaders who are lying to you.” Quote by: Bible Highlighter.​

My points broken down that you need to address or explain are:

• Has your Watch Tower organization ever lied to it’s followers?
• Have their been abuses inside the JW religion whereby it forces many to leave the Watch Tower?
• The JW organization has lied to all people (even now).

Again, to prove that the JW organization is lying to people even now: Compare nails (plural) in his hands written in the JW Translation for John 20:25 and compare that with the ONE NAIL in his hands as displayed by the JW picture at JW.org. You can see even see previous JW books of showing how Jesus was on a cross. Now, you guys don’t believe that? So you guys are not consistent in what you believe. Your beliefs change with time. If you truly had the truth back then, then it would be true today.

Look at the testimonies online of those who left the Watch Tower and the abuse that has happened to them. If the JW organization truly was of an organization by God, then people in your JW religion would not have been abused on such a massive scale. There are stories after stories of the abuse by the Watch Tower upon their own people. All I can do is encourage you to read their testimonies online. Type into Google… ex JW testimonies or do so at YouTube. Be informed and don’t just blindly follow your cult leaders. Remember what happened to the followers of Jim Jones?

Jim Jones - Wikipedia

Anyways, here is a place to start reading.

Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses

Sure I will be glad to address your questions BH:

• Has your Watch Tower organization ever lied to it’s followers?
• Not deliberately, have they ever been wrong in their interpretation? Yes
  
• Have their been abuses inside the JW religion whereby it forces many to leave the Watch Tower? Of course, we are imperfect people same as you sir
  
• The JW organization has lied to all people (even now).
• That is a statement, not a question, and it is really basically the same as the first sir

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Thanks for giving me the post # Walt, that made it much easier to find. No sir, I didn't pick up on the answer to the question, but I did understand what you posted. Of course names change in languages, so YHWH is Yahweh in Hebrew, but in English it is Jehovah. Strangely, Jesus name should be Joshua as it is the same as Joshua's, but for some strange reason all Bibles call him Jesus, so I fully believe God accepts that.

I think I have an answer Walt, the translators of those versions deliberately changed it to promote the trinity doctrine. Since you have to call on Jehovah's name for salvation, and know Him, He did protect His name in those versions, like you pointed out in post #231 those 4 places. It is interesting how after His name became well known throughout the earth, that His full name was removed entirely from some versions. But equally interesting I know of no translation that was able to omit it completely, as they include it in the shortened form Jah. Ps 68:4

God's name occurs 6973 times in the Bible (I believe), far more than any other name, and His people used it and made it known including Jesus Jn 17:6,26. And being Jesus disciples commanded to teach all the things he did Mat 28:20 we make it known as well Rom 10:14,15

Thanks for asking me Walt?

Thank you Robert for your patience.

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[Robert Gwin]

Then the JW’s are in error for 100 years if that is the case because they used to use the KJB for 100 years approximately.
Think. Why did they use the KJB? Because that was the only Bible for hundreds of years until Westcott and Hort (Who were into Catholicism) showed up and created their New Testament Greek translation. Westcott and Hort hated the King James Bible. They created their English translation (the ASV) in 1901. You guys (the JW’s) did not come out with your own translation NT (1950), and complete bible (1961). So you came late into the game basing your NT off the work of two pro Catholic men and who were into the occult. Your JW translation only was created to fit your pet theologies that are extra biblical. You use the Westcott and Hort text but not even the ASV totally agrees with your translation. Your translation is biased to your extra biblical beliefs. We know that the words of the Watch Tower are not on the same level of Scripture because their history is filled with the JW founder being immoral by sleeping around, and lying (in court - which is documented), and failing to make accurate prophecies multiple times.

We used the KJV as it was the most readily Version available, and it was the most accepted in the field. In fact I carry one in my service bag for people like you sir, who has the same idea you do. We encourage people at the door to get their own Bible, as when they see it from their own Bible it makes a more solid impact with them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good! I am so glad we agree that we are in the last days, right at the end in fact. Which of course means Jesus is coming soon! Hooray.

I was raised a Baptist sir, and at one time I thought the King James was the Bible, perhaps you do as well. The truth is, it is simply a Version of the Bible. I had a great zeal and love for God as you display yourself BH, so I accepted a Bible study with the Witnesses as I simply loved God and wanted to know more about Him. When I had to give my first through 3rd Bible reading in front of the congregation I used my King James Bible, and in fact still have it, was a gift from one of the teachers given to me in 1968, laying right here in front of me on my desk.

So why have I changed my view on it? Because of what they said to me? Yes, to a degree. People say things sir, you say things to me, and I say things to you, some of them true, perhaps others not so true, that is simply the truth. So when I tell you something, I believe it is true, so the truth is it either is or isn't, correct. So what is your role when I tell you something? Acts 17:11 is a great encourager sir, if what I tell you is true or not, prove it to yourself. We live in the age of information, and the things I say are easily proven. Blue letter Bible is a very valuable tool to see what originally occurred in the Bible with definitions for all the words, and the way it is used in your King James Version. You might be surprised to know that the same word like Sheol is translated 3 different ways, which led to people not really understanding what hell actually is. But with that tool, it is easy to find out, it is simply the abode of the dead sir.

So when I tell you something, and you have proven to yourself it is fictitious then let me know and what you found on it, that is our responsibility as loving Christians looking out for our neighbors.

In 1992, American religious scholar J. Gordon Melton placed the Jehovah's Witnesses denomination in a list of "established cults".

Deal with my previous points (from my previous posts to you), and I will be happy to indulge your new content and or information that you see as a challenge to me (When in reality it really is no challenge at all seeing the obvious silliness of the JW religion and its inconsistencies).

 

[Robert Gwin]

First, in Hebrew, some different names of God would be:

#1. Yᵊhōvâ (a.k.a. YHWH) (a.k.a. Tetragrammaton) (Example: The English word Jehovah in Exodus 6:3 - KJB).
#2. ĕlōhîm (Example: The English word God in Genesis 1:1 - KJB).
#3. 'ēl (Which sounds like a shortened version of ĕlōhîm) (Example: The English word God in Genesis 35:1 - KJB).
#4. ăḏōnāy (Example: The English word Lord in Genesis 18:31).
#5. šaday (a.k.a. Shaddai) (Example: The English words the Almighty - Numbers 24:4).

Note 1: This is not meant to be an exhaustive list nor an exhaustive set of examples.

Note 2: You can search these words above by typing into Google the name of God provided as the first word as shown in the list above along with the following words Strong’s Number.

Here is an example of what this would look like:

But it’s even more than this:

Second, (while this may not be you) some believers wrongfully assume that the KJB translators made a mistake on translating YHWH (Yᵊhōvâ) (a.k.a. Tetragrammaton). They think that just because they translated that word differently is somehow mistake. However, we see that the writers of Scripture themselves had used different words to describe God involving the same event between 2 Samuel 5:19 and and 1 Chronicles 14:10.

2 Samuel 5:19 says: "And David inquired of the LORD" (Jehovah) but in 1 Chron. 14:10 the same verse reads: "And David enquired of God".
Both of these verses describing the same event each use a different Hebrew word for the name of God.

Seven is the number of spiritual perfection and in the KJB the name JEHOVAH is found 7 times.

Three in one is the Trinity and we have the name JAH found only once. Eight is the number of a new beginning, and it is through the redeeming grace of JEHOVAH that we are made new creatures in Christ and begin a new life in Him.

In addition to this, another interesting thing found only in the King James Bible is the name JEHOVAH in capital letters is found four times in the Old Testament - Exodus 6:3; Psalms 83:18; Isaiah 12: 2 and 26:4. Likewise the name JESUS standing in capital letters all by itself and not in a longer phrase is found only four times in the New Testament - Matthew 1:21, 25; Luke 1:31 and 2:21. Four is the number of the earth and JEHOVAH God Himself has come to this earth to save His people from their sins.

The name of JESUS in capital letters is found in two phrases "And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS." (Matthew 27:37) and in John 19:19 "And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS." This brings the total to six and six is the number of man. Thus Jehovah God our Redeemer (7) came to earth (4) as a man (6).

So, only in the King James Bible do we have these precious truths revealed. This is just one of the many marks of God on this Book that shows it is indeed His inspired word in the English language.

Sources used:
Another King James Bible Believer
King James Pure Bible Search WebChannel Server

While this example on biblical numerics may not float your boat and make you go,“Wow,” there are others examples of biblical numerics in the King James Bible that will blow your mind and show that it is indeed a divine book.

Check out these two videos here by Pastor Mike Hoggard:

Please keep in mind that I do not believe everything Mike Hoggard says or teaches. I do not agree with his view on salvation. I also reject his belief on the Dual Nature Theology, as well. But Mike’s teaching on biblical numerics is simply a showing of the facts involving the numbers in the King James Bible. He will present the numbers in the KJB and it should blow the mind of any reader out there (After hearing his case).

This truth on biblical numerics is not just in the English bible, but it can also be demonstrated in the original languages, as well.

Now, some confuse this with numerology (Which is false). Numerology is about living your life under the guidance by numbers (Which is wrong). I believe biblical numerics helps us primarily to see that God's Word is divine in origin. In this case, it helps to prove the KJV is God's Word.

I salute you for your research sir. As you can see at the start of your post, you researched the words well from the Hebrew, and understood the English rendering. Of course only one of those was His name, which you should be able to recognize, the rest are titles. God is not a name, rather a title, and you accurately showed it came from El. Do you understand what I am saying?

I have had a few people tell me the KJV has Jehovah's name 7 times, I am aware of 4, what are the other verses BH? I know it has Jah in several more places

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We used the KJV as it was the most readily Version available, and it was the most accepted in the field. In fact I carry one in my service bag for people like you sir, who has the same idea you do. We encourage people at the door to get their own Bible, as when they see it from their own Bible it makes a more solid impact with them.

You ask questions that attempts to get an unlearned bible believing Christian to be a member of your cult (that has lied, and continues to lie). That is what you are really doing. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting a dishonest organization that has lied multiple times.

This video here should be watched by you and or others believers to show the questions you probably bring up to attempt to break the faith of a Bible believing Christian and so as for them to join your destructive abusive cult.

This Christian answers the seven common questions used by cults that deny the Trinity. It’s a must watch for any believer who cares for the truth of the Godhead in God’s Word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I salute you for your research sir. As you can see at the start of your post, you researched the words well from the Hebrew, and understood the English rendering. Of course only one of those was His name, which you should be able to recognize, the rest are titles. God is not a name, rather a title, and you accurately showed it came from El. Do you understand what I am saying?

I have had a few people tell me the KJV has Jehovah's name 7 times, I am aware of 4, what are the other verses BH? I know it has Jah in several more places

You have blinded by your cult to think that there are no other names and I just showed you that God has many names. Stop following your cult leaders in believing blindly what they say.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. You say that I believe that the Bible does not exist but that is not what I said and nor is it what I believe. I believe the Bible exists today and it exists in the preservation of God’s Word by the power of God with the King James Bible. I believe the KJB is perfect and without error and is God’s Word and that the KJB does exist today and is His Word.

The King James Bible is severely altered, and you even posted evidence to that when discussing His name in another post. The Bible is long gone sir, pay attention to what the V means in KJV it is not KJB as you posted. You have chosen not to accept the errors, perhaps you are not honest in your decision. Truth is truth, and the Bible was not originally written in English, and I believe you will find out that it was written a tad bit before 1611 sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This point has nothing to do with what I said.
You are not actually dealing with the points I mentioned. You first need to address my points specifically with a logical response and hopefully with the Bible (that actually ties in with refuting my points) before you can move on to another point of your own. I said, I quote:

First, your blind trust in your organization is your downfall.
Many previous JW’s have found reason to doubt the JW organization and left them.
You do not research to see if your JW organization is potentially lying to you.

Second, you guys used to follow the King James Bible before you created your own translation that catered to your Pet Theologies. So if you criticize the King James Bible you are only criticizing your own organization because that was their chosen Bible that they used for a long time in history. This is why your blind trust in the JW organization has not allowed you to see any kind of reason.

Read your own post, then read mine, and perhaps you will understand the reason for my reply. If you want a specific question answered, then ask and I will be more than happy to address it, but don't expect me to read your mind, I have not that capability, and there is no doubt we do not think alike as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The King James Bible is severely altered, and you even posted evidence to that when discussing His name in another post. The Bible is long gone sir, pay attention to what the V means in KJV it is not KJB as you posted. You have chosen not to accept the errors, perhaps you are not honest in your decision. Truth is truth, and the Bible was not originally written in English, and I believe you will find out that it was written a tad bit before 1611 sir.

So the JW's followed a bible that was severely altered for a hundred years and so you cannot be trusted as being an authority from God because you followed a book that was flawed. Your credibility has gone out the window. You cannot pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to believe in. The Bible does not give us the luxury of picking and choosing our own adventure (of what we want to believe in it vs. what we don’t want to believe in). You cannot cherry pick the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Read your own post, then read mine, and perhaps you will understand the reason for my reply. If you want a specific question answered, then ask and I will be more than happy to address it, but don't expect me to read your mind, I have not that capability, and there is no doubt we do not think alike as well.

The point is that you have been masterfully trained and brainwashed to not deal with people's point but to move on with something else quickly so as not to show flaws in your cult.

Proof?

Your doing it right now.
All of you (who are JW here) are doing so.
Deal with what we are talking about first with logical and sound rebuttals using the Bible, logic, and facts.

Don't jump to another topic.
Stick to one topic first.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The King James Bible is severely altered, and you even posted evidence to that when discussing His name in another post. The Bible is long gone sir, pay attention to what the V means in KJV it is not KJB as you posted. You have chosen not to accept the errors, perhaps you are not honest in your decision. Truth is truth, and the Bible was not originally written in English, and I believe you will find out that it was written a tad bit before 1611 sir.

So your recruiting method is a deception. You want them to trust their Bible (like the KJB) that is in your view flawed. Why don't you just speak upfront with that person and tell them that you believe their Bible (KJB) is flawed instead of misleading them to think their Bible is valid? This is why you are being dishonest and misleading. Be true to your ultimate intentions. Don't mislead people.

In other words, even your recruiting methods are not honest.
Look at yourself in the mirror. Look at what you are doing. It's not right.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well my watchtower is called THE BIBLE and I know you do not agree with it.

Ditto!

 

[Robert Gwin]

Adding one lie to another is unbecoming of you!

I very rarely lie, I would like to say I don't but of course that would be a lie. I may be wrong, and what I say may be true or false, but I really don't care for false accusations at any rate. If you think I have lied then post it. You stated in your post: And as I have showed you many times- Jesus is called Yahweh. What I said in the last post was gospel truth, you were unable to show it because Jesus was never called Jehovah(Yahweh) ever in Scripture, only in your own interpretation which is caused from a lack of research, and adherence to a severely altered version of the Bible.

If you believe you can, then post one verse, not a book, and we will examine it more closely. Afraid to put it to the test Ron? Not me! Go ahead, take your best shot sir.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). Believers must confess of sins to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9). This would be confessing of your sins to Jesus Christ (context: 1 John 2:1-2). For those who confess and forsake their sins shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). Forsake sin means to put that sin away out of your life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, if one is a liar, then how can we trust that what that person says as being true? Charles Taze Russel lied in court that he knew Greek. That does not bode well for his organization that he lied. He also failed to make correct prophecies on multiple occasions. This either means he is lying or he was being deceived by a false spirit. Therefore, he was not a true prophet of God.