Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Dropship]

Only God himself knows if they're Christians, it's all up to him to decide..

Yet you imply these cultural norms rise to the level of Scriptural mandate. Not cool.

What "cultural norms"?
JW beliefs are certainly not normal by general christian standards.
PS- I'm not singling out the JW's, as there are also plenty of other cults that have offbeat ideas and notions, I have great fun straightening them out in other forums and I wish they'd come into CB so i can get stuck into them here too..

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Continued From No.817

A wise thing to do since Jesus was clear that if one listens to his appointed teachers, its
the same as listening to him, if one doesnt listen, they are rejecting them,

Beware; not all that glitters is gold.

• 1Cor 11:14-15 . . Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel
of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming
themselves into ministers of righteousness.

Without the anointing spoken of by 1John 2:26-27, you are susceptible to
seduction by false appointed teachers, plus: you are not in union with God's
son: in point of fact, according to Rom 8:8-9, you are in harmony with the
flesh because God's spirit does not dwell in you, viz: those in harmony with
the flesh cannot please God.
_

 

[Aunty Jane]

Your "scriptural answers" were just JW interpretations not shared by the majority of Christians..
For example I don't think there are any scriptures telling people to die rather than have transfusions.

I addressed this in detail too....but when you have your fingers in your ears you don't hear what is told to you.

Remember this....? Nothing to do with JW's. It was posted on the Australian Government's website.
For Media | National Blood Authority

Argue with the specialists in this field of medicine...

 

[Aunty Jane]

JW beliefs are certainly not normal by general christian standards.

What Jesus taught was "not normal" by Jewish standards...did it make him wrong.....or them?

 

[Dropship]

I addressed this in detail too....but when you have your fingers in your ears you don't hear what is told to you.
Remember this....? Nothing to do with JW's. It was posted on the Australian Government's website.
For Media | National Blood Authority
Argue with the specialists in this field of medicine...

Nobody likes having other people's blood pumped into them, but if it's necessary to save our life we have no choice..

 

[Dropship]

..JW beliefs are certainly not normal by general christian standards..

What Jesus taught was "not normal" by Jewish standards...did it make him wrong.....or them?

The stuffy jewish priests were snooty overbearing control freaks and the people lurved Jesus to bits because he blew them out of the water..

PS- I don't think I've mentioned the JW's belief in not fighting in wars yet; that sounds good on paper but if everybody did that the nazis would be running half the world by now, and the japs the other half..

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well you need to remember that the word "other" appears in no Greek manuscript. The two greek words we translate as other are "heteros" and "allos" and neither are in any Greek text. those only appear in either paraphrase bibles or what are known as "dynamic translation" bibles, which are just a little above a paraphrase.

Many words are added in Scripture Ron, to assist in understanding. Have you ever looked at a word for word translation, very difficult to understand.

 

[DavidB]

The stuffy jewish priests were snooty overbearing control freaks and the people lurved Jesus to bits because he blew them out of the water..

PS- I don't think I've mentioned the JW's belief in not fighting in wars yet; that sounds good on paper but if everybody did that the nazis would be running half the world by now, and the japs the other half..

I really love this one, the old “what if everyone refused to go to war.” Think this make believe world through just a little. Where would Hitler be if all Germans had been JW’s? In the real world Germany was full of Catholics and Protestants who were willing to commit the atrocities that real history records.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Wrong! Yes I know worship is used to shoe reverence to authorities.

But it becomes clear if one chooses to believer Jesus when He said this:

John 5:22-24
King James Version

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The Greek Word "honour" is "timao" which is:

KJV Translation Count — Total: 21x
The KJV translates Strong's G5091 in the following manner: honour (19x), value (2x).

Outline of Biblical Usage G5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere:—honour, value.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.
2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23;

so Jesus said--However you value the Father, you also value or reverence the Son in the same way!!! It doesn't get more clearer or simpler to say than that!

I fully agree sir, honor, but not worship, understanding of degrees really comes into play so as not to commit idolatry, do you honestly think that we should honor our elders twice as much as Jehovah or Jesus Ron? Honor does not come from the word Proskuneo, translated worship as you stated, but one really needs to define it honestly, when it boils down to it, doesn't it really mean deep respect Ron?

 

[Robert Gwin]

So now you are accussing God of making a grammatical error.

Especially when Jesus is called God in so many NT verses, I posted to you in other threads.

Jesus is never called God in the Bible sir. Might you post where I accused God of making an error of any kind, I would be interested in seeing that. I know that you are not ignorant of what you are posting sir, so why eat crow if you don't have to. It seems you are unable to reason on Scripture, why do you suppose that is?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Like I said, steeped in rationalization. I showed you how the Bible says he was resurrected IN the Spirit but you carry on.

He took on many human bodies? Oh my!

I fully agree, so what is your point since we are in agreement Wrangler. Let me phrase it simply to make sure we agree, Jesus was resurrected a spirit being and returned to heaven in that form, correct?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Now you would claim Jesus Himself for your false religion!

You have no shame!

On a Christian forum you continue to attack the basic tenets of Christianity.

Much love!

Which God do you say Jesus worships sir? Either what I say is true or false, so state your Scriptural proof if I am incorrect, not just your opinion Marks.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Interesting POV.



Mark, I don't sense a lot of love with shame and false words in that post.

Given, JW's consider themselves Christian, doesn't it stand to reason that Jesus plays a prominent role in the religion they hold dear?

Thanks Wrangler for the honest defense. Yes sir, we consider him the head of the faith. As everyone realizes we literally obey the assignment. Likely you can imagine how many times we have heard at the door, we really respect what you are doing, and realize that we should be doing it too.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Not an answer to my question!

Also, there is NO reason one cannot realize the ancients held the same view you today. None.



Agh, you are confusing common with proper nouns. @Robert Gwin never claimed Jeuss was a member of the organization formed in the 19th century known as 19th century "Jehovah's Witness" but that Jehovah had a witness recorded in Rev 1:5 who is explictly said to be Jesus. And your erudite, considered response ...



To be honest, when I 1st read your post, I though you were referrring to GE "our image." Far better is what you pulled out (below is the VOICE translation). No wonder you got @marks all flustered! He can't acknowledge Biblical support for a doctrine he does not hold.

and from Jesus the Anointed, the Witness who is true and faithful, the first to emerge from death’s cold womb, the chosen Ruler over all the kings and rulers of the earth.

To the One who loves us and liberated us from the grip of our evil deeds through His very own blood​

It is a sad state of our inherited imperfection Wrangler, of course Christians love to talk about their God, but if they don't, then it is really a fruit that is being displayed correct? A Christian will never force someone to believe their way, in fact they cannot, they realize serving God is voluntary, but we will always do our utmost to make full proof of our ministry 2 Tim 4:5 by Scripture if possible.

It is also important to keep in mind, that none of us has absolute truth at this time, the only one in history that I am aware of among us that did was Jesus. Even some in the faith will understand some things differently, but it cannot be outside the realm of main doctrine 2 Jn 9-11. It is always nice when we are on the same page with someone, but if not one needs to take the responsibility to make sure they are in line with Scripture and understand what they are teaching.

 

[Robert Gwin]

JW's stopped using the cross on the cover of their publications, and if they're going to do similar chopping and changing in the future people might say they're not a stable religion..

That is actually how our history has always been, correct Drop? Jehovah has progressively revealed things, and then we have a choice of whether to accept it or not. Are you familiar with what Dan 12:4 and Pro 4:18 mean sir? So as things are progressively revealed, we have chosen to accept the change. It should have been common sense that a religious image is unacceptable to God, heck He put that on the stone tablets, but are you familiar with the apostasy Drop? 2 Thes 2:3 Antichrists were dominant and by the end of Johns life the apostasy was well established, and it would continue until Jesus was enthroned and turned his attention to the earth to regather the scattered sheep Isa 2:2,3, verse 4 helps you to identify those sheep Drop. So me personally when things are revealed to us and we change, I consider that to be a positive thing in the faith. It takes humility to change and admit that you were in error in your understanding. I can tell you full out, more changes for us are on the way sir, as we are far from having absolute truth, and in fact, we will never know all God does Ecc 9-3:11

If for some reason you do know of the faith that has absolute truth, please let me know sir, I will head that way quickly.

 

[Wrangler]

I fully agree, so what is your point since we are in agreement Wrangler. Let me phrase it simply to make sure we agree, Jesus was resurrected a spirit being and returned to heaven in that form, correct?

No. And I think you know we don’t agree on this point and why we don’t agree.

Make a Blessed Day!

 

[marks]

You are the one who has not offered a credible alternative to explicit Scripture @ Rev 1:5 that states Jesus is THE Witness to God Jehovah. Can you understand how this could be interpreted as support for the organization that goes by that name?

This is entirely off track from what we were talking about.

I can concede your point, if you so insist, that we use the incorrect name "Jehovah", and it still does not support Robert's doctrine, and specifically denies it.

Adding the word "Jehovah" to a verse, so that it can be made to sound like the name of the religion known as "Jehovah's Witnesses", hey, maybe they named it that just because of that verse, you know?

But that doesn't matter . . . the verse actually flatly denies one of their seemingly key teachings about our Redeemer, that He is Michael, and after he finished being Jesus he returned to being Michael.

It doesn't matter, because this passage itself affirms . . . It's Jesus.

Do you likewise believe Jesus was actually Michael, as does Robert? Who still has not responded . . .

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I can concede your point, if you so insist, that we use the incorrect name "Jehovah"

Why do you say it is the incorrect name? (I already said it is the English translation of YHWH, like Yeshua is the name of our lord in his native tongue)

and it still does not support Robert's doctrine, and specifically denies it.

How does recognizing Yeshua is the first witness to Jehovah denying the JW doctrine?

Do you likewise believe Jesus was actually Michael, as does Robert? Who still has not responded . . .

No. @Aunty Jane explained it is a speculative belief with biblical support but does not rise to the level of doctrine for JW. I am not JW.

Robert did respond in posts 829-835.

 

[marks]

(I already said it is the English translation of YHWH,

It's not.

It's the pronunciation used for the combination of the consonants of YHWH and the vowels of Adonai. This combination was invented as a means to prevent people from attempting to pronounce YHWH, and instead, when they came to that place, to say "Adonai" instead. So people saw that, and pronounce it Jehovah, even there there isn't "J" sound in the Hebrew. And even though this vowel points were imported from a different word.

It's not a translation of YHWH, it's not a transliteration, it's a substitute word based on combining 2 different words.

Even so, Robert was adding a word to a verse to make a word play as if Jesus is "Jehovah's Witness" in the sense that Robert is. And that's not valid.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How does recognizing Yeshua is the first witness to Jehovah denying the JW doctrine?

The point is that the passage quotes Jesus, Not Michael. This is not Michael.

Do you believe Michael became Jesus?

Much love!