Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

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Ronald Nolette

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No sir, that was you saying that, His people have always known and use His name, and still continue today, making it known to the world Ron.
Then why did Moses have to ask God His name so He could tell Israel who sent HIm????????????? didn't He know the divine name after over 40 years of being with the people of God????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 

ScottA

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Well hang on a minute.....where does it ever say that God and his son "become one" as in a marriage arrangement?
The "oneness" of God and his Christ is that of a Father and son, not a husband and wife.
That relationship is to be exclusive to Christ and his bride which are the elect...those whom will rule with him in heaven.
No, that's not biblical.

Jesus stated that He and the Father are One, and prayed the we also be included. The mystery of marriage simply tells of how we enter into that same Oneness "in Christ." In. Which is only part of the explanation.

The other insight and explanation is that of Christ being Head and we being His body...which Paul explains by first giving the example of man being the head of the woman, then moves the whole example up to apply to Jesus. Which with the Father and the Son being One, leaves no daddy head upon the Head who is separate, but rather as Jesus also states it as "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in One."
 

ScottA

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I believe that the scriptures make that obvious.....only those who fulfill 1 Cor 1:10 can be of the elect. All must hold to the same beliefs because God does not speak with a forked tongue......his adversary does.....

God does not exist in disorder, factionalism and false doctrines and celebrations adopted from paganism.....so that leaves the divided churches of Christendom out of contention IMO.
What is left then are the ones who claim that God is with them personally, but they have no way to prove that they are guided by God' spirit because of having no brotherhood to back them up. Its just their word for it.....not very convincing except to themselves.
That leaves the ones who are outside of Christendom, but who do have a brotherhood who are global in scope and all hold to the same Bible based truths....the true disciples of Christ are out there fulfilling 'the great commission'. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) They are not popular...in fact they are hated by many, just as Jesus said they would be. (John 15:18-21)

Who does that describe? I know who it describes to me....
That was not the question nor the point, and you have gotten off track.

The point is if you yourself told your own story third person, you are not another person--and neither is God for having done the same. Jesus and the Father are One and the same...except that He has lowered Himself for the purpose of salvation and given His fleshly character a Name...which means exactly that: Immanuel (God with us).
 
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ElieG12

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That was not the question nor the point, and you have gotten off track.

The point is if you yourself told your own story third person, you are not another person--and neither is God for having done the same. Jesus and the Father are One and the same...except that He has lowered Himself for the purpose of salvation and given His fleshly character a Name...which means exactly that: Immanuel (God with us).
Jesus did not think the same. He said:

John 20:17b I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

It is evident that Jesus did not teach his disciples that he was the same person as his Father, his own God and theirs.
 
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Aunty Jane

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So you're telling me and everyone reading this, that there are no differences among you.
We all receive the same spiritual food and the same Bible instruction in every nation on earth where we meet for worship and Bible education. Jesus instructed his disciples and sent them out with his message to make more. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14)
That you and 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses believe the EXACT same things, with no minor differences? You accept wholeheartedly EVERYTHING that is taught to you by the 8 men who make up the Governing Body?
In Matthew 24, Jesus gave various “signs” that would prove conclusively when we were living at the time of his return. Part of that sign, which included important and unique world events, was that love would “wax cold” and that Jesus would appoint a “faithful and wise slave” who would “feed” his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”. (Matthew 24:45) So in line with that, Jesus framed his statement in a question....”who really is” this slave? This would indicate to me that his identity would not be obvious, and even that many others may claim to be that slave....

Since Jesus also said that his true disciples would be hated and persecuted, (John 15:18-21) that would also be a factor in their identification. They would appear to be defectors from the true faith, just as Jesus and his disciples were viewed by the Jews in the first century. The Jewish leaders did not have a good word to say about the Christians, and conversely, Jesus did not have a good word to say about them. (Matthew 23)

Since unity and love (1 Cor 1:10; John 13:34-35) are what identify true Christians in amongst the divided mess that is Christendom, I know of no other global body of Christians who actually fulfill all the criteria that Jesus said would identify his true disciples.

Jesus sent his disciples out to preach (John 10:11-14) and the churches seem to see the preaching work as someone else’s job. They just can’t seem to do it in any sustained way, probably because Jesus said he would back this work.....and there is no evidence that he is backing them. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) If you ask them what God’s kingdom is, they have no idea.

The governing body do not claim to be prophets, but are fellow slaves in the service of our Master Jesus Christ. Unitedly we serve our God and Father with Jesus and his anointed ones.

Do we make mistakes? Of course we do just as the apostles did.....we are imperfect humans after all, but by and large, I believe that we are the closest to the criteria that the scriptures outline for Christians.

So who decides who is elect and non elect?
God does. There is no advantage to claiming to be one of the elect if you aren’t.....in our ranks, there is no special treatment for those who will join Christ in heaven.....they are just fellow slaves like the governing body...all Christians in the service of Christ and our God Jehovah....and each other.

Those ‘non elect’ will also continue to serve God in the earthly realm of his Kingdom. We do not see ourselves as anything but servants.....so we really don’t care where we do that...in heaven or on earth, we are happy to be where God wants us to be.
 

Aunty Jane

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That was not the question nor the point, and you have gotten off track.
It is very pertinent to the facts presented to you. The truth is the truth....all of it.
The point is if you yourself told your own story third person, you are not another person--and neither is God for having done the same. Jesus and the Father are One and the same...except that He has lowered Himself for the purpose of salvation and given His fleshly character a Name...which means exactly that: Immanuel (God with us).
This is your opinion, but it isn’t the truth as I understand it.
Nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be God. His position in heaven was at his Father’s side, working with him.
The Father is also his God, even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

The name “Immanuel” means “God with us” but is that what Jesus was named?
How was God “with” his chosen people? Wasn’t it by means of his representatives? Jehovah could not be personally with his people because it would have meant death for them. (Exodus 33:20)
It’s the reason why John said that “no man has ever seen God”. (John 1:18)

Jesus is “Ye·shuʹaʽ” or “Yehoh·shuʹaʽ” which means “Jehovah (Yahweh) Is Salvation”. Jesus was Jehovah’s means of salvation for humanity.

How was Jesus “one” with his God and Father? The same way that Christ’s disciples were “one” with Jehovah and his Christ. It is a ‘oneness’ meaning unity of thought and purpose.

Jesus volunteered for the role of redeemer, and his position in heaven made it possible for him to be born as a human child and willingly offer his mortal life for all humanity. Since the Father is immortal, there is no way for him to die.....Jesus could only offer his life because he was not an immortal.
 

Aunty Jane

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No, that's not biblical.

Jesus stated that He and the Father are One, and prayed the we also be included. The mystery of marriage simply tells of how we enter into that same Oneness "in Christ." In. Which is only part of the explanation.

The other insight and explanation is that of Christ being Head and we being His body...which Paul explains by first giving the example of man being the head of the woman, then moves the whole example up to apply to Jesus. Which with the Father and the Son being One, leaves no daddy head upon the Head who is separate, but rather as Jesus also states it as "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in One."
Sorry, but I do not see any of that in the Bible.
The scripture you referred to about headship of the man and the woman tells us that “the head of Christ is God”....so if the son has a head, he is not in the same position as his Father, but is subject to him.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Then why did Moses have to ask God His name so He could tell Israel who sent HIm????????????? didn't He know the divine name after over 40 years of being with the people of God????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I believe that you have mistaken God’s name for a mere handle.....in Bible times names had important significance.
Moses wrote the Genesis account and it contains the divine name throughout, so he did not have a problem with God’s name at all.

The first appearance of the divine name is found at Genesis 2:4, which in the Jewish Tanakh reads....
"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." דאֵ֣לֶּה תֽוֹלְד֧וֹת הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם וְהָאָ֖רֶץ בְּהִ֣בָּֽרְאָ֑ם בְּי֗וֹם עֲשׂ֛וֹת יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶ֥רֶץ וְשָׁמָֽיִם:

The Lord God is "יְהֹוָ֥ה" as you can see clearly in the Hebrew text.

What does the divine name mean?

Again Moses answers....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation." טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

What added dimension did God reveal about his name here?......not just a statement of his existence, because Israel already knew who the God of their forefathers was. His intention now was to "BE"or to "BECOME" whatever was required to fulfill his purpose in connection with them.

Being Abraham’s offspring, (the only man ever to have been called “Jehovah’s friend”), it is highly unlikely that Abraham was not acquainted with the name of his God. Can you be close friends with someone whose name you do not know? (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23)
 

RR144

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Well the two most common pronouncing's are Yahweh/Jehovah. but these may or may not be right as Israel did not write down the vowel points when they wrote the divine name.
The official website of the Catholic Church states:

“About the 13th century the term ‘Jehovah’ appeared when Christian scholars took the consonants of ‘Yahweh’ and pronounced it with the vowels of ‘Adonai.’ This resulted in the sound ‘Yahowah,’ which has a Latinized spelling of ‘Jehovah.’ The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270” (www.catholic.com/qa/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah).​

Below are some references to Yahweh:

“The true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced ‘Yahweh’” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, vol. 7, p. 680).​

“Early Christian writers, such as Clement of Alexandria in the 2nd century, had used the form Yahweh, thus this pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton was never really lost. Greek transcriptions also indicated that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh” (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th ed., vol. x, p. 786).​

“The pronunciation Yahweh is indicated by transliteration of the name into Greek in early Christian literature, in the form iaoue (Clement of Alexandria) or iabe (Theodoret; by this time Gk. b had the pronunciation of v)…Strictly speaking, Yahweh is the only ‘name’ of God. In Genesis wherever the word sem (‘name’) is associated with the divine being that name is Yahweh” (Eerdman’s Bible Dictionary, 1979 p. 478).​

“Such a conclusion, giving ‘Yahweh’ as the pronunciation of the name, is confirmed by the testimony of the Fathers and gentile writers, where the forms IAO, Yaho, Yaou, Yahouai, and Yahoue appear. Especially important is the statement of Theodoret in relation to Ex. lvi, when he says: ‘the Samaritans call it [the tetragrammaton] ‘Yabe,’ the Jews call it ‘Aia’…” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, “Yahweh,” p. 471)​

In addition to early Christian sources, evidence for Yahweh is also found in the Nag Hammadi codices, dating from the 2nd to 4th century CE. This library of Gnostic writings was discovered in Upper Egypt, near Nag Hammadi, in 1945. In all, there are over 50 texts within this library. Since they are in Greek, as with the church fathers, they preserve the pronunciation.

But I have become convinced god was not giving a formal name for Himself but simply a description of Himself--- " I am who I am"
Actually, the tetragrammaton first appears in Genesis 2:4
 
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Robert Gwin

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Eternal life is actual… separate selves, individuals, soul…. is conceptual. Inspect and see clearly firsthand. To argue and debate is to miss what’s being said altogether. Actually inspect for yourself. Find out if this is actual. Reality might not turn out to be in line with any conditions or beliefs.

I mean, just stop and consider this simply. If life is eternal, there isn’t a point in time where it’s lost or received.
There is only the perpetuation of beliefs, and the ignorance of not inspecting these ‘matters’ & beliefs for oneself.

I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me.
So simple & straighforward.
Needs no addition or interpretation.
Rejoice!
I am glad we finally agree on Jn 14:6 Phil. This may sound strange but we actually believe that many will never have to die sir, thus having the eternal life you defined. The Bible indicates at Rev 7:9,14 that many will survive the tribulation and clearly they were God's sheep or they wouldn't have, thus they have a high percentage that will gain life at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:5 thus never having to die. But the gift of eternal life for most, will come after they have died once Phil; Heb 9:27
 

Robert Gwin

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That's my whole point. I'm not in or walking in my soul. I'm walking in the spirit. Let's begin by looking at these 11 verses and keep in mind they do seem to be speaking about our time right now and not for some time into the future. We see this with statements like "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law." Well, I'm not under the law right now. Or "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not." I'm born of God right now. Or "being made free from sin, and become servants to God." I'm a servant to God right now.

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.
If you are a born again Christian Peter, you are in line for some wonderful blessings sir. Of course every Christian sins, holy ones included. Those verses are not literal, but indicate that you have been declared sinless. You quoted one of my favorite passages found at Romans 6:7, which applies to all Christians sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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If there is eternal, there isn’t time.
Just as if there is infinite, there isn’t finite.
Future is a thought, never in perception.
A unicorn.
Eternal is almost hard to contemplate for sure Phil. While we may not be able to, keep in mind that God said it sir, it must be right, but I definitely understand how it can be difficult to believe.
 

Robert Gwin

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So let me ask, how do you benefit from a covenant arrangement you are not under?
Same way as all those who died before the new covenant, the other sheep will be granted everlasting life here on earth, whereas those of the new covenant will reside in heaven as Christ's bride. They have been purchased to serve as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom of God Rev 5:9,10

All alive will benefit from that covenant, as all will be citizens of that Kingdom.
 

Robert Gwin

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Sorry, but the inspired writers did not pen the divine name once in the NT! Why did the Watchtower not use Yahweh in the nativity passage when the angel appeared to Mary? After all that is referring to Yahweh. Why did not Gabriel say Gods name? He is an angel who stands before God!

As for Deut. 6:13 in the NT, then why did the writers not include teh divine name when they were inspired to write the account? did they disobey god??????
As for Deut. 6:13 in the NT, then why did the writers not include teh divine name when they were inspired to write the account? did they disobey god??????
Exactly Ron! Now you get it sir. Mat 4:10 You surely do not think Jesus would have altered it, so anyone who alters the Bible during translation, is disobeying God for sure. I might add to the superlative degree Rev 22:18,19
 

Robert Gwin

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Then why did Moses have to ask God His name so He could tell Israel who sent HIm????????????? didn't He know the divine name after over 40 years of being with the people of God????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Your perception and literacy sir. I too once took that as being literal as well. The movie the 10 commandments put it in their script also, calling Him the god with no name, but as I showed you by scripture they were calling on His name early in history.

So you asked a valid question, here is our explanation sir:
Early Use of the Name and Its Meaning. Exodus 3:13-16 and 6:3 are often misapplied to mean that Jehovah’s name was first revealed to Moses sometime prior to the Exodus from Egypt. True, Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did not know Jehovah’s name. The very name of Moses’ mother Jochebed means, possibly, “Jehovah Is Glory.” (Ex 6:20) Moses’ question likely was related to the circumstances in which the sons of Israel found themselves. They had been in hard slavery for many decades with no sign of any relief. Doubt, discouragement, and weakness of faith in God’s power and purpose to deliver them had very likely infiltrated their ranks. (Note also Eze 20:7, 8.) For Moses simply to say he came in the name of “God” (ʼElo·himʹ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ) therefore might not have meant much to the suffering Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.
Then, too, we must keep in mind that names then had real meaning and were not just “labels” to identify an individual as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning “Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change being made because of God’s purpose concerning Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new name to throw light on his purpose toward Israel. Moses’ going to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him meant being the representative of that One, and the greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak would be determined by or be commensurate with that name and what it represented. (Compare Ex 23:20, 21; 1Sa 17:45.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.
I fully understand that this is speculation, and you likely will not agree with it, but truthfully God's name was used and passed down for over a millennium when this question was asked, and I posted scriptural usages.

Perhaps you are correct, maybe Moses didn't know it, and that is why he asked, but at any rate more in line with the topic, Jehovah gave His name and stated very clearly it would be His name forever, and it has been used ever since. Calling upon His name became a requirement for salvation after the new covenant went into force Ron. Rom 10:13 as we have discussed multiple times in the past.
 

Scott Downey

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From another forum on JW teaching
========================
I have found something that stopped JWs in their tracks the two times I’ve used it when they’ve come to my home, (If there is a way to refute this from their point of view, I’d like to know what it is.) In both conversations, I asked them what they believe happens to us when we die, since only 144,000 people will be in Heaven. They believe that there will be some sort of kingdom on earth that will be a wonderful place to live, but they can’t be sure that they will be there. I guess you don’t find that out until you die. But, I asked, “What if I don’t believe in God or the Bible or anything you’re telling me?” I’ve heard two responses: The first lady said, “You’re annihilated.” So I asked, “If you can’t promise I’ll make it into the kingdom, but you can promise there’s no Hell, then, why bother?” She had no answer and was off my porch in a flash.

The second JW who came, answered, “You’re separated from God forever.” Then I asked, “So, what’s wrong with that?” And she reacted like she was horrified, put her hand on her chest, and said, “I can’t imagine anything worse than being separated from God forever!” I said, “Well, I can. It would be KNOWING you’re separated from God forever. If you’re annihilated, you no longer exist. You don’t know anything.” She and her partner looked at each other and left without another word, not even good-bye. I hope in both cases, I gave them something to think about.
 
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-Phil

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I am glad we finally agree on Jn 14:6 Phil. This may sound strange but we actually believe that many will never have to die sir, thus having the eternal life you defined. The Bible indicates at Rev 7:9,14 that many will survive the tribulation and clearly they were God's sheep or they wouldn't have, thus they have a high percentage that will gain life at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:5 thus never having to die. But the gift of eternal life for most, will come after they have died once Phil; Heb 9:27
What’s being said is being misunderstood and contorted to accommodate beliefs.
Death is a belief.

‘We actually believe’ doesn’t sound strange, it just isn’t actually experienced.
It’s another belief, which supports the first belief.
 

-Phil

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Eternal is almost hard to contemplate for sure Phil. While we may not be able to, keep in mind that God said it sir, it must be right, but I definitely understand how it can be difficult to believe.
The truth isn’t difficult to believe, the truth is obscured by beliefs.
The difference between belief & truth, is one’s the truth.
The truth is simply unbelievable.
 
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ScottA

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Jesus did not think the same. He said:

John 20:17b I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.

It is evident that Jesus did not teach his disciples that he was the same person as his Father, his own God and theirs.
You misunderstand.

If Elie's "image" could talk, it might say, "If you have seen me, you have seen Elie", and "I and Elie are One"; and if Elie's "image" could talk to other "images" it might also say, "my Image and your Image, my Being and your Being."

So, no, Jesus would not say a mere image of God is actually God. Nonetheless, to see an "image" of God (with us), and say that the image is God, meaning of God--it is true.
 

ScottA

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It is very pertinent to the facts presented to you. The truth is the truth....all of it.

This is your opinion, but it isn’t the truth as I understand it.
Nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be God. His position in heaven was at his Father’s side, working with him.
The Father is also his God, even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12)

The name “Immanuel” means “God with us” but is that what Jesus was named?
How was God “with” his chosen people? Wasn’t it by means of his representatives? Jehovah could not be personally with his people because it would have meant death for them. (Exodus 33:20)
It’s the reason why John said that “no man has ever seen God”. (John 1:18)

Jesus is “Ye·shuʹaʽ” or “Yehoh·shuʹaʽ” which means “Jehovah (Yahweh) Is Salvation”. Jesus was Jehovah’s means of salvation for humanity.

How was Jesus “one” with his God and Father? The same way that Christ’s disciples were “one” with Jehovah and his Christ. It is a ‘oneness’ meaning unity of thought and purpose.

Jesus volunteered for the role of redeemer, and his position in heaven made it possible for him to be born as a human child and willingly offer his mortal life for all humanity. Since the Father is immortal, there is no way for him to die.....Jesus could only offer his life because he was not an immortal.
I have not given you my "opinion."

But noting the times, what good was "the truth as it was understood" when Jesus first came?

I have told you the truth.
 
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