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Are nonbelievers responsible for following Christian values?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by aspen, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    For me, this is an issue of freewill. Are nonbelievers allowed to live their own lives? Are Christians supposed to enforce God's purposes on nonbelievers?
     
  2. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    We all have free will. The choices we make all have consequences. I believe in freedom of religion so a person is allowed to choose whatever religion they want to follow including the choice to not believe in God. However, like all things, freedom of religion comes with limitations. People are allowed the freedom to believe in whatever they want to believe. However, certain religious PRACTICES may be limited if it endangers the person's health, endangers the health of the community or society, is against the civil law, or against the moral law. For example, people are not allowed to marry more than one person because it goes against both civil and moral law. Bigamy is against the law in the United States as well as in Guam.
     
  3. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The 10 commandments applies to all as an indicator of what power we are living from. We can't enforce a spiritual law. We, as Christians are to show the way to the world by exemplifying the upholding of the law. We are to show the character and personality of the law through grace.
     
  4. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi aspen,

    Christians cannot 'enforce' God's purposes on nonbelievers, but Christians themselves cannot stop enforcing God's purposes on themselves - obeying God - just because nonbelievers don't obey Him.

    Nonbelievers are allowed to live their own lives but they must therefore tolerate Christians living their own lives, in which Christians have to obey God, including reminding nonbelievers (ideally by their chaste conversation in Christ) that God died for them to be free from sin and death.

    (You see), real freedom lies in knowing God and obeying Him. When you say, 'free will' - for nonbelievers - what you're really justifying is rebellion against God. You aren't addressing that nonbelievers, according to God, have had their own general revelation of Him, but are taking active steps to ignore that revelation. Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful...'

    It is not a small thing that mankind is separated from God by sin, and that to be able to forgive sin God had to give His only Son to die.

    It is not a small thing to be redeemed from sin. It is a cause of eternal thankfulness in the hearts of believers to have been freed from the eternal death which sin brings on us all.

    For nonbelievers to complain about the just call of God on their lives - His desire that they be reconciled to Him at His own expense - is a sign they don't understand the seriousness of their situation. Only by His revelation to them, and the preaching of His word, can they see and hear.

    When we look at the ministries of both John the Baptist and Jesus, we see two men who were prepared to interrupt others with the more important matter (than what people were engaged with), which they had heard from God. This is an aspect of preaching - that the preacher cannot apologise for the message he's been called, and sent, to speak forth.

    On free will, no-one's will is truly 'free' while they are a servant of sin. They may be enjoying sin, but that enjoyment may not last forever; yet what kind of freedom have they got - if they can't stop sinning? They have an illusion of freedom, but that's a lie, because they have no alternative.

    Once a nonbeliever understands their predicament, and rejects God's propitiation, then their blood is upon their own heads, not the Church's.
     
  5. brightmorningstar

    brightmorningstar Member

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    apsen2,
    God didnt create believers and non-belivers. He created all people and wishes that none perish but all come to repentance. The free will He gave all people is to choose Him or not. He didnt give people any right to reject Him.
    It is democractic society that gives all citizens the right to vote for what they think is best, so when Christians vote for God's purposes society either imposes them on all or imposes ungodly laws on all.
    This has been explained to you. Christians are not required to shrink back just so unbeief and rejection of God can flourish. How could you pray Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as in heaven if you are more concerned about upsetting those who dont want it?
     
  6. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. Great question.
     
  7. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Upsetting people? Not my concern.

    I have no problem witnessing Christ - my problem is legislating Christ.

    Do you really believe that 'Christian Europe' was better off during the Dark Ages when they were forced into Christianity or today when people have to fight against the secular culture for their Christianity?
     
  8. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    Are believers responsable for paying the consequences that come with a sinful lifestyle ? i agree people should be free to live as they please but when the consequences come it is their responability to endure them and/or change...not the responsability of someone who is trying to live a Godly life and struggling to do so...in every way.....God put consequences in place as a witness to the truth and validity of his law and his authority as the law giver....that truth is lost when one can pass on that cost to someone else and continue in their sin....this society is circling the drain and is just one major disaster away from total collapse....then there will be consequences like nobody in this country has ever seen before and there will be no way to stop or escape them and people,some for the first time in their lives,will reap fully what they have sown.
     
  9. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    Since being a Christians is a spiritual regeneration that brings one into a grace relationship with God, through the indwelling presence of Jesus Christ, how in the world could the LOST follow Christian values? We can't even follow "Christian Values" if it was not for the Spirit of God.

    The righteous were not appointed to wrath and will not experience the wrath of God. However, we have been promised tribulation and persecution, which come from Satan, the flesh and the world. But all of these things are used by the Master Potter in our lives to test our hearts, perfect us in love and conform us to the image of Christ.

    Axehead
     
  10. brightmorningstar

    brightmorningstar Member

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    Aspen2,

    The question to you was how can you pray for his Kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as in heaven if you then abstain from the chance to vote for it?
    ‘No’ and ‘probably not’

     
     
  11. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Easy - I am praying for the real heart change that comes from justification and sanctification in people's loves - not fake behavior which is coerced from law.
     
  12. brightmorningstar

    brightmorningstar Member

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    aspen2,
    We understand that, we never said law and legislation changes peoples heart, we witness and pray for that whether laws are for or against God anyway. Thats a given. What we are talking about is, if society is going to have laws, we want laws that honour God's purposes, not ones that dishonour and corrupt.
    .
     
  13. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    An interesting comparison was made a few years ago.

    Atheists were asked to compile a "list of rules" that mankind should adopt to live in harmony.

    The "atheist list" sounded just like the "Christian list"
    - do not murder
    -do not steal
    -do not harm others
    -better to forgive and reconcile than hold a grudge
    -help the disabled
    etc etc.

    Turns out that Christian values are some of the most desirable .... even when applied to the non-religious population .

    "Christian values" are beneficial for all .... even for the atheist .... who on their own , could not come up with anything better.
     
  14. elysian

    elysian New Member

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    These aren't Christian values, every religion has these values. It is common humanistic values.
     
  15. seekandfind

    seekandfind New Member

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    That is very interesting,

    I did search on Google to see what percentage of Americans say that they are Christians, the polls differ, but in all of the different polls that I saw the amount of Christians in this nation range from 75-85 percent. The vast majority of Americans are believers in Christ.

    That leaves the question: Why is it so easy in a nation where the "vast majority rules," to have the Ten Commandments removed from court houses and public places?

    I believe that it is because so many believers disregard the Ten Commandments themselves. I've met some who do and who are among the most vocal in their displeasure over the commandments being removed from court houses. Kind of interesting to consider...

    Any way...

    If the laws are written on our hearts and our minds as scriptures say that they are for the believer, then there would be a higher respect for the commandments and it would be much more difficult to have them removed.

    When Moses led the Hebrew children out of Israel they didn't go alone, there was a mixed multitude with them, and God told Moses that they were to be as one born among the children of Israel.
    Exodus 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
    Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

    Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

    This looks to me like a "foreshadow" of being grafted in.

    Paul went into this in Corinthians and we know that Jesus said that the seed is the word:

    1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    Paul also wrote this:

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    There's a pattern and an order of things throughout the bible. Even we as believers started out the same way, first natural and worldly and then, with seeds sown, (the word) with acceptance of Christ Jesus, those seeds are raised spiritually.

    Isaiah 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

    One more point; in Israel, the law given in the time of Moses was to be kept by all who were in Israel, the natural born and the strangers among them. Not everyone honored that even then, yet...God's law stands regardless of who will follow it.

    The point is the word is the seed: The ten commandments are contained in the word.
     
  16. brightmorningstar

    brightmorningstar Member

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    elysian,
    Well they are Christian values for Christians, they are only described as humanistic values by humanists. Humanists dont believe in God, Chistians believe God has given His values for all mankind
     
  17. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Sort of on that subject (America) ... it is my opinion that The USA is just another chunk of land on the face of this earth ..... not a lot different than other chunks of land around the world.

    But it has a foundation based on Judeo-Christian values .... and the freedoms and democracy all that entails .... and for that reason America has thrived and prospered within a couple hundred years .... whereas most other nations have not accomplished as much after thousands of years.

    The best thing about America is the core and character of the majority of her people , and yes , they are predominantly Christians.
     
  18. brightmorningstar

    brightmorningstar Member

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    Yes it is interesting. Listen to the secular liberal spin and on one issue, one minute they will say there are hardly any Christians left and the next that most Christians (the nominal) one want this or that.
    But the most laughable is when they say religion cant be in the public domain. If we match that and say we dont want a secualr liberal society they get very upset and it is usually the end of the conversation.
    Just how arrogant, inequal and intolerant are those who come in the name of tolerance, equlaity and human rights. LOL
     
  19. dragonfly

    dragonfly Well-Known Member

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    Hi aspen,

    Following on the way your concerns are weaving through several threads, I had this simple thought this morning at seeing this thread title again:

    'Are nonbelievers responsible for following Christian values?'

    No: but they are 'responsible' for not following Christian values.


    Especially in any country where the gospel of Jesus Christ is not illegal and is not, therefore, almost a secret.
     
  20. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I agree completely - they will be held accountable at Judgment for not turning their lives to Christ. But, are we expected to legislate these laws now?
     
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