Are nonbelievers responsible for following Christian values?

[aspen]

Foreigner said,

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]-- [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Why would you need me to "explain the differences" unless you truly don't see?[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]And if you reread your original question after what I typed, it does indeed indicate you hold "voting for Christian based laws" equivalent to Sharia Law.[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]So.....?[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]If you do not want to explain the differences just say so. I thought my request was simple enough; I guess I was wrong.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]- Your links would not open.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]I just tried the first two and had no problem. [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]There are some Conservative public school boards but they are far outnumbered by Liberal ones.[/background]

So what? I give you evidence and you dismiss it because there are more liberal school boards than conservative ones based on your intuition? Your dismissal takes nothing away from the evidence I provided.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]And the ACLU doesn't seem to want to help enforce the rights of the students in Conservative school districts.[/background]

Based on what evidence?

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Allowing only one view to be discussed and shown to be acceptable in school is hardly "exposing children to different points."[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]And we both know that is exactly what is happening in school as far as the topic we are discussing.[/background]

So talking about two people of the same sex living together as a couple - which is a reality for many children in school is 'allowing only one view to be discussed'? How so? Especially if the teacher also discusses heterosexual marriage?

"He answered. "Have you not read that he who created from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his WIFE, and the two shall become one flesh.'"

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]- Sure sounds like he did....[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Actually, the verse puts not limit on the amount of wives a man can have. Abram married Sarah and Hagar - did God correct him?[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]So, you think today God has no issue with concubines, plural sexual relationships and multiple spouses?[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Either it's still that way today or it isn't. Which is it?[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)](Psssst....if you pause for a minute, there are a great many things God did and tolerated in the old Testament that He doesn't today. )[/background]

All I said was that God did not define marriage. I made no comment about what God tolerates today. But if you bother to think about it, God tolerates all forms of sin in the World today. Sure it will be punished on Judgment Day, but apparently, based on the fact that sin is allowed to exist - God must be tolerating it.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]So, you're "willing to believe" that homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes? [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Indeed.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]No one here - except you - has said that "all God fearing people in the Bible complied or were punished for violating that definition." NO ONE.[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Why imply that then?[/background]

God punished people for sinning against Him pretty drastically in the OT - I think it is a natural conclusion for me to come to if God defined marriage.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]And it is that short-sightedness that causes the "being wrong" to have serious repercussions.[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]That would be fine if the only one it had serious repercussions for is the person who was short-sighted.[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]History shows that isn't the case, at all. [/background]

Don't worry, Foreigner, God is not going to punish you for me being wrong.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]I am not surprised. Neither at your opinion, nor the fact that you cannot comprehend the threat to our society. [/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]What if the "consulting adults" are a man and two women? A woman and two men?[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]What if the "consenting adults" are brother and sister? Father and daughter?[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]What if it is a woman and her dog? A man and his horse?[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Last time I checked, dogs and horses are not consenting adults. As you know, reproduction between close relatives produces inbred children - which are a threat to the gene pool and therefore a threat to society.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]No one here is talking about or calling for someone to be thrown into prison because they are gay or support gay marraige.[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]My church welcomes gays with open arms. The message is shared and they can come and go as they please.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]On the contrary, we are talking about laws against homosexual marriage - anytime you talk about laws you have to talk about punishment. Based on your argument, God is angered by homosexual marriage - why would He limit His anger to marriage between people of the same gender? Would he not be just as angry about unmarried homosexuals engaging in sex? Where do you draw the line?[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]There were a long litany of practices and activities that have never been accepted by our government, from the Founding Fathers forward. Including homosexual behavior. [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]When did the Founding Fathers mention homosexuality? I know they didn't mind slavery. Of course your statement is meaningless anyway - it has nothing to do with my statement that proceeded it - that the Founding Fathers allowed for the existence of nonbelievers in our society when they separated Church from State.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]But if you are going to admit that God likely does not smile upon it, yet you still support it, then you are going to have some explaining to do when you stand before Him. And, "But Lord, I did it out of love" isn't going to cut it.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Why would I support sin? Because I allow people to make bad choices? So does God.[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]So you are going to justify not actually sharing the Gospel in order to save homosexuals before it is too late as "refusing to cast the first stone?" [/background]

On the contrary, I have said many times that I would be happy to let any homosexual who does not know that some Christians believe that God hates homosexual behavior. Until then I will share my most intimate relationship with nonbelievers through Christian love.

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Snarky comments, which add nothing but an air of superiority to the conversation:[/background]

• [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Aspen, please quit making ridiculous statements. [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background]
• [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Honestly, please quit the silliness...'[/background]
• [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Gosh, that's big of you.'[/background]
• [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Aspen, you really need to stop. It is harder and harder to take you serious when you say things like this. '[/background]
• [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Aspen, you have to STOP THIS. It is outright dishonesty.'[/background]
• [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Aspen, please get real.'[/background]
• [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]'[/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]You just think God condones YOU condoning sin. [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]What? You don't condone sin? And how are the sinners supposed to know that if your approach is "no talk, just love?[/background]
• '[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]As far as "passing laws that would send them to prison," you really need to stop. [/background][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]No one here is calling for that. Please act like an adult.'[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Gosh Foreigner, we've had some pretty good conversations lately - I thought you were past all the leveling and use of sarcasm.....perhaps you are having a bad moment. Should I expect to hear from your fellow classmates about how ridiculous and audacious I must be for daring to engage in written conversation with the likes of such a formidable opponent as you, once again?[/background]

Aspen2,

Your own words trap you.
But you are not being asked about that.
Ok but thats not consistent with God’s word, for some things you use the world’s thinking and worldly criteria. That is double-minded. James 2

Now I have your answer, thanks, but they are only apples and oranges in worldly terms and thinking, in God’s terms they are the same wrong and wrong and error.

Well we would and do vote against it, fornication includes homosexual practice as well, it is any sexual practice outside faithful man/woman union. Your thoughts are of the world and not the Kingdom.
Thats liberal ‘interpretation’ for let people sin. Jesus said remove the plank in your own eye so that you may be able to remove the speck in the other person’s eye. Read Galatians 6, the believers help each other from sin, they dont say to each other remove your sin and leave it there.

What like Phoebe who was a deacon? (Romans 16) I thought you were only referring to non-believers?
Irrelevant, it is democratic government that legislates, but there is teaching on obeying the authorities where possible, if God allows authorities to be put in place, how come you don’t want them to ever legislate for Him?

No you have by what you said. Why didnt you say our view?
I and others are already dismissing your opinion, its too much from the world and not the Kingdom.
Arguably we are. We are called to make disciples and teach them to obey all Christ taught, that in a way is dictating the behaviour of non-believers... to become believers.
Your thinking is caught in humanism. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Said Jesus.
Read Romans 13, God has His eye on governments and authorities, how can we refuse a part of it to do good?
You said you wont legislate for things that dont harm society
9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So dont say sin, as in homosexuality, doesn’t do harm to society, love does no harm to a neighbour.

Democratic society allows for each to vote for laws as to the way society is run, society includes believers and non-believers equally, they all have a right to vote for the laws they want. Society is going to impose those laws, and it is not forcing faith or belief on anyone.

It should have occurred to you that there is a gulf of some sorts between you and other posters here. It is them or you?

:unsure: I pray a seed of truth has nonetheless been sown in your mind and heart.

1. Show me a verse that tells Christians to judge nonbelievers on Earth
2. Show me in the Bible where Jesus was ever concerned about making human laws correspond with God's laws.
3. If I am doubleminded for allowing sinners to sin - does that mean God is doubleminded too? He lets sinners sin everyday.
4. Seems to me that worldly thinking is wrapped up in trying to legislate people into the Kingdom using man-made laws. You are also putting the cart before the horse - people need Jesus BEFORE they stop sinning - not made-made laws mimicking God's laws.
5. You need to go and look up the word Humanism. When you do, you will see that Humanism places the human potential above all else. How am I doing this by letting sinners sin? There is not room for sin in Humanism.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

1. Show me a verse that tells Christians to judge nonbelievers on Earth

As I said, show me a verse that says believers should not vote for laws in line with God’s purposes in order not to force them on non believers, and I may start playing your show me a verse game.

2. Show me in the Bible where Jesus was ever concerned about making human laws correspond with God's laws.

As I said, show me a verse that says believers should not vote for laws in line with God’s purposes in order not to force them on non believers, and I may start playing your show me a verse game.

3. If I am doubleminded for allowing sinners to sin - does that mean God is doubleminded too? He lets sinners sin everyday.

He is God, regardless on you wanting to judge Him. But God advises people to choose His ways for life and not sin which leads to death. I am not going to abstain from voting as part of society so sin can be forced on everyone.

4. Seems to me that worldly thinking is wrapped up in trying to legislate people into the Kingdom using man-made laws.

But no one has said the laws will legislate people into the Kingdom, we have all said they wont cause belief. We are challenging you about your criteria of harm to society.

5. You need to go and look up the word Humanism. When you do, you will see that Humanism places the human potential above all else.

Correct.

How am I doing this by letting sinners sin?

Because your criteria is whether it harms society, and as the scripture shows that is a humanistic one, and is not loving your neigbour.
9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet,"[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[aspen]

Just like I thought.......let me know when you are serious BMS.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

Just like I thought.......let me know when you are serious BMS.

Let me know when you stop trrolling and start addressing points put to you.

You say for example you wont vote against homosexual relatiions because it doesnt do harm to society, but you see the commandments, sin does do harm to your neighbour. Is society not made up of your neighbours? God said do not sin, and says it is summed up in "Love your neighbor as yourself."

AND ...

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/

CDC May 2012

HIV among Gay and Bisexual Men

• Gay and bisexual men are more severely affected by HIV than any other group in the United States (US).
• Among all gay and bisexual men, blacks/African Americans bear the greatest disproportionate burden of HIV.
• From 2006 to 2009, HIV infections among young black/African American gay and bisexual men increased 48%.

Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2009, MSM accounted for 61% of all new HIV infections, and MSM with a history of injection drug use (MSM-IDU) accounted for an additional 3% of new infections. That same year, young MSM accounted for 69% of new HIV infections among persons aged 13–29 and 44% of infections among all MSM. At the end of 2009, an estimated 441,669 (56%) persons living with an HIV diagnosis in the US were MSM or MSM-IDU.


New HIV Infections


In 2009, MSM accounted for 61% of new HIV infections in the US and 79% of infections among all newly infected men. Compared with other groups, MSM accounted for the largest numbers of new HIV infections in 2009.

• Among all MSM, white MSM accounted for 11,400 (39%) new HIV infections in 2009. The largest number of new infections (3,400) occurred in those aged 40–49.
• Among all MSM, black/African American MSM accounted for 10,800 (37%) new HIV infections in 2009. Whereas new HIV infections were relatively stable among MSM overall from 2006–2009, they increased 34% among young MSM—an increase largely due to a 48% increase among young black/African American MSM aged 13–29.
• Among all MSM, Hispanic/Latino MSM accounted for 6,000 (20%) new HIV infections in 2009. The largest percentage of new infections (45%) occurred in those aged 13–29.

Estimates of New HIV Infections in the US, 2009, for the Most-Affected Subpopulations

HIV and AIDS Diagnoses and Deaths

• In 2010, in the 46 states with long-term confidential, name-based reporting, MSM accounted for 78% of estimated HIV diagnoses among all males aged 13 years and older, and 61% of estimated diagnoses among all persons receiving an HIV diagnosis that year.
• At the end of 2009, of the estimated 784,701 persons living with an HIV diagnosis, 396,810, or 51%, were MSM. About 48% of MSM living with an HIV diagnosis were white, 30% were black/African American, and 19% were Hispanic/Latino.
• In 2010, MSM accounted for 51% of estimated AIDS diagnoses among all adults and adolescents in the 50 states and the District of Columbia. Of the estimated 16,796 AIDS diagnoses among MSM, 37% were in blacks/African Americans; 36% in whites; and 22% in Hispanics/Latinos.
• By the end of 2009, an estimated 296,222 MSM with an AIDS diagnosis had died in the US since the beginning of the epidemic.

So when you say you dont vote for things unless they are harmful to society, now you know gay marriage will be harmful to society

 

[Axehead]

These aren't Christian values, every religion has these values. It is common humanistic values.

True.

Christian values are more like, do good to your enemy, feed them, pray for them, turn your cheek, if you are being robbed, give them more and be joyful about it.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again;

Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.


Axehead

 

[Foreigner]

Amusing: I said: "by opposing something that I feel will do more harm than good to America and its citizens, that is NOT the equivilant of calling for Sharia Law."
Your reply: "How is it different?"
I give you multiple concrete examples to answer your question.
Your reply: "All I asked was for you to explain the differences - I wasn't claiming that voting for Christian based laws is equivalent to Sharia Law."
Then you say: "[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]If you do not want to explain the differences just say so. I thought my request was simple enough;"[/background]
So again I ask, what was the purpose of asking?



[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]"I just tried the first two and had no problem." - Aspen[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]-- I am sure you did. They didn't work for me. Still don't. [/background]
I even went to HuffingtonPost to try to find the article connected to one of your links.
Still, I found it humorous that if I would have provided a link to FOX News you would have balked, yet you provided one from HuffingtonPost. lol



"Don't worry, Foreigner, God is not going to punish you for me being wrong." - Aspen
-- It's not ME I'm worried about. It's those that you never witness to due to your 'love' for them.



"[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Actually, the verse puts not limit on the amount of wives a man can have. Abram married Sarah and Hagar - did God correct him?" - Aspen[/background]


- So the only way you would read marraige as one man and one woman is if the scripture read:
"Therefore ONE man shall leave his ONE father and his ONE mother and hold fast to his ONE wife, and they shall become one flesh?"
Sorry Aspen, but being intentionally obtuse to Scripture doesn't negate that scripture.

As far as Abraham, Sara, and Hagar......How did that turn out for all of them?
Did any of the them come out unscaithed and happy by displeasing God?
It would appear they reaped what was sewn, like God promised. Sure looks like God showed his displeasure.....



"How about, 'I refuse to cast the first stone?" - Aspen

-- How twisted it is to equate sharing God's Word with homosexuals as "casting the first stone."




"I chose to love them and continued to have faith that God would convict their hearts rather than passing laws that would send them to prison"
- Aspen

I pointed out that no one here has even mentioned a law that sends homosexuals to prison.
Your reply: "[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]On the contrary, we are talking about laws against homosexual marriage - anytime you talk about laws you have to talk about punishment."[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Again, an utterly ridiculous thing to say. And from the man who said, "I don't believe in the slippery-slope" no less...[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Homosexual marraige has been approved in a number of states. How many have gone to jail for it? Anywhere in the U.S...[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Multiple states do not recognize gay marraige. How many have ended up going to jail for it there?[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]You yourself have said that gay marraige is going to become the law of the land, regardless. So how then can you possibly try to sell this stinker about "punishment?"[/background]








"On the contrary, I have said many times that I would be happy to let any homosexual who does not know that some Christians believe that God hates homosexual behavior." - Aspen

-- "Some Christians?" Does that include you? Oh, of course. After all, you are "willing to believe" that homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes.
That implies a leap of faith on your part. I am sure God appreciates your "willingness."

The problem with your statement about being "happy to let any homosexual know" is that you are just as happy leaving them blissfully ignorant to the fact that most Christians actually want them to realize that God loves them very much, that their sin is no worse than anyone else's, that all have had to turn away from sin to follow Christ, and that there is eternity in heaven for them if they do.
Translation: Your love leaves them blissfully ignorant and most likely to die in their sins. In other words, that is not love at all.



"All I said was that God did not define marriage" - Aspen

-Oh, He defined it. I gave you one of the verses showing that.
Even the denomination you claim to belong to says so.

What you are, Aspen, is a "Cafeteria Christian."
You pick and choose that which you will believe and support and reject that which doesn't appeal to you, regardless of what Scripture says.

Your denomination says that, based on Scripture, God says marraige is between a man and a woman. You say they are wrong.
I give you an article showing where the Pope himself says that gay marraige will destroy civilization. You say that's just his opinion and he is wrong.
Certain events like Noah's Ark are given as fact in the Bible. You say those events are just parables (even though they don't fit that criteria) and that they didn't actually happen.

You somehow feel qualified to say that anyone who speaks from the pulpit but are overweight is guilty of gluttony (your words).
Your opinion even leaves you feeling qualified to claim that those who vote against gay marraige are, "violating the civil rights" of homosexuals (your words).

Man, that is one big ego.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Foreigner,
great answers!!

"How about, 'I refuse to cast the first stone?" - Aspen

-- How twisted it is to equate sharing God's Word with homosexuals as "casting the first stone."

Exactly!!!!

If aspen2 viewed homosexual relations as the barrier to the KIngdom that God's word says it is he would not say this. He might have said he doesnt want to share God's word with homosexuals because they may feel it is casting a stone at them. But some homosexuals are convicted and believe. The rich man who wanted to justify his wealth to Jesus, was sent away by Jesus to change first.
The homosexual issue is one of the big issues for the church, it is not actually about homosexuals, its about rebellion against God and how it seduces people into deception.
There are some primary deceptions in the church.
There are many clergy in the CofE for example who like their ECUSA counterparts are already speaking against their fellow CofE clergy on this issue and taking sides with the world. At present one of their key tactics is to repeatedly insist they are fellow brothers in Christ. Yet when the world and society starts forcing the church to accept the sin they wont be standing with the believers.
In addition there are the luke warm who say they are against homosexual relations but wont make any fuss if the church changes its posittion especially if it looks likely it will cost. They will soon compromise.

 

[Hollyrock]

The preaching of the Cross is foolishness to unbelievers because the god of this world has blinded there eyes.However, they will be held responsible and accountable for what they chose to do with the salvation that Jesus died for them to have.

 

[Foreigner]

The preaching of the Cross is foolishness to unbelievers because the god of this world has blinded there eyes.However, they will be held responsible and accountable for what they chose to do with the salvation that Jesus died for them to have.

-- True, but God is "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

The Holy Spirit works in all hearts to open them up to God's message.
He will bring a number of people into someone's life to - over time - bring this person to a place of reflection, comprehension......and decision.
This is true for ALL sinners.

Yet there are some here that feel that this should not be the case for homosexuals.
They actually argue that everyone that does more than remain silent and "just love them" only witnesses to them in judgment and condemnation.
They couldn't be further from the truth.
They - incorrectly - feel that homosexuals already know what Christians and God feel about them.
But by leaving them with that misconception - not telling them that God loves them, that He died for them, that he hasn't singled out homosexuality as "the" sin but all of us are sinners that have to repent, that if we turn to Him He will deliver us and give us eternity in Heaven - we are letting them continue down the path to damnation.

That is not what God wants.

 

[Hollyrock]

For me, this is an issue of freewill. Are nonbelievers allowed to live their own lives? Are Christians supposed to enforce God's purposes on nonbelievers?

Everyone of us, believer and non-believer alike, have our own free will with which to choose however we want to. At no time are we to try and enforce God's purposes on non-believers. When we do that, we are out of the will of God.

 

[aspen]

Everyone of us, believer and non-believer alike, have our own free will with which to choose however we want to. At no time are we to try and enforce God's purposes on non-believers. When we do that, we are out of the will of God.

Agreed.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Everyone of us, believer and non-believer alike, have our own free will with which to choose however we want to. At no time are we to try and enforce God's purposes on non-believers. When we do that, we are out of the will of God.

I thought this had been agreed. The question was are we prepared to allow the democratic process to force God's purposes on people, or force Satan's. ie who purposes are we going to vote for?

 

[aspen]

I thought this had been agreed. The question was are we prepared to allow the democratic process to force God's purposes on people, or force Satan's. ie who purposes are we going to vote for?

I must have missed your agreement on this point.

What this issue now comes down to is, whether or not the United States is a theocracy or a secular state.

Amusing: I said: "by opposing something that I feel will do more harm than good to America and its citizens, that is NOT the equivilant of calling for Sharia Law."
Your reply: "How is it different?"
I give you multiple concrete examples to answer your question.
Your reply: "All I asked was for you to explain the differences - I wasn't claiming that voting for Christian based laws is equivalent to Sharia Law."
Then you say: "[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]If you do not want to explain the differences just say so. I thought my request was simple enough;"[/background]
So again I ask, what was the purpose of asking?

This issue has become far too complicated to pursue any further - sorry, when it comes to mental gymnastics this advanced, I am just an amateur. Nevermind!

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]"I just tried the first two and had no problem." - Aspen[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]-- I am sure you did. They didn't work for me. Still don't. [/background]
I even went to HuffingtonPost to try to find the article connected to one of your links.
Still, I found it humorous that if I would have provided a link to FOX News you would have balked, yet you provided one from HuffingtonPost. lol

Ok. Your loss.

"Don't worry, Foreigner, God is not going to punish you for me being wrong." - Aspen
-- It's not ME I'm worried about. It's those that you never witness to due to your 'love' for them.

Aw Foreigner - didn't you learn the song 'they will know we are Christians by our love' in Sunday School?! Witnessing Christ's love is the perfect witness!

"[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Actually, the verse puts not limit on the amount of wives a man can have. Abram married Sarah and Hagar - did God correct him?" - Aspen[/background]

- So the only way you would read marraige as one man and one woman is if the scripture read:
"Therefore ONE man shall leave his ONE father and his ONE mother and hold fast to his ONE wife, and they shall become one flesh?"
Sorry Aspen, but being intentionally obtuse to Scripture doesn't negate that scripture.

Pointing out how scripturally retarded you think I am, is not going to win you any points with God, Foreigner - shame, shame! Fact is, none of the OT people lost their favor with God based on the amount of wives they claimed. I cannot say the same for your own judgment towards homosexuals.

As far as Abraham, Sara, and Hagar......How did that turn out for all of them?

Still favored by God. Did they lose their relationship with God? The answer is no.

Did any of the them come out unscaithed and happy by displeasing God?

Nope - who comes out unscathed in this life? Jesus was crucified, remember?

It would appear they reaped what was sewn, like God promised. Sure looks like God showed his displeasure.....

Hmm...sure looks like God did not abandon them to me.

"How about, 'I refuse to cast the first stone?" - Aspen

-- How twisted it is to equate sharing God's Word with homosexuals as "casting the first stone."

Apparently you didn't get the gist of the story. You see, Jesus confronted a bunch of Pharisees who were about to stone a guilty women. Instead of joining in on their righteous judgment, Jesus told the Pharisees to continue only if they to were innocent of sin. Then, when Jesus was the only person left, He told the women to go forth and sin no more - He was the only person who was in the place of righteous judgment over her because He was sinless and He chose not to condemn her.

My comment about not wanting to throw the first stone is an acknowledgement of my own unrighteousness. If you want to consider that twisted, I am not sure what to even make of it. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


"I chose to love them and continued to have faith that God would convict their hearts rather than passing laws that would send them to prison"
- Aspen

I pointed out that no one here has even mentioned a law that sends homosexuals to prison.
Your reply: "[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]On the contrary, we are talking about laws against homosexual marriage - anytime you talk about laws you have to talk about punishment."[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Again, an utterly ridiculous thing to say. And from the man who said, "I don't believe in the slippery-slope" no less...[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Homosexual marraige has been approved in a number of states. How many have gone to jail for it? Anywhere in the U.S...[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Multiple states do not recognize gay marraige. How many have ended up going to jail for it there?[/background]
[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]You yourself have said that gay marraige is going to become the law of the land, regardless. So how then can you possibly try to sell this stinker about "punishment?"[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]It is against the law to be the same gender and married in Colorado. In fact it is against the State Constitution. This means that homosexuals that get married in Colorado - and there will certainly be protesters that go through with the ceremony will be jailed. Do you really believe that any state that goes through the legal hoops and spends the money to pass a law outlawing homosexual marriage is not going to jail people who break that law? [/background]

"On the contrary, I have said many times that I would be happy to let any homosexual who does not know that some Christians believe that God hates homosexual behavior." - Aspen

-- "Some Christians?" Does that include you? Oh, of course. After all, you are "willing to believe" that homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes.
That implies a leap of faith on your part. I am sure God appreciates your "willingness."

Ah, how snide of you.......still trading wisdom for cleverness, I see

The problem with your statement about being "happy to let any homosexual know" is that you are just as happy leaving them blissfully ignorant to the fact that most Christians actually want them to realize that God loves them very much, that their sin is no worse than anyone else's, that all have had to turn away from sin to follow Christ, and that there is eternity in heaven for them if they do.
Translation: Your love leaves them blissfully ignorant and most likely to die in their sins. In other words, that is not love at all.

Really? How did you come to this conclusion? Certainly, not based on my post that clearly states that I would be happy to let any homosexual know that many Christians believe that God disapproves of their homosexual behavior. Since when it our job to convince people of the truth? I hope you are not suggesting that we try to usurp the Holy Spirit?! I may be scripturally retarded in your mind, but even I am aware of how foolish and vain that idea is!


"All I said was that God did not define marriage" - Aspen

-Oh, He defined it. I gave you one of the verses showing that.
Even the denomination you claim to belong to says so.

LOL - so you are claiming that I am redefining marriage according to the church I belong to - the same church you are redefining as a denomination? My head is spinning!! Ah, sweet, sweet irony.......

What you are, Aspen, is a "Cafeteria Christian."
You pick and choose that which you will believe and support and reject that which doesn't appeal to you, regardless of what Scripture says.

​Huh?!? If I was sophisticated and 'edumacated enuff' to pick and choose which scripture to follow - why would I bother proclaiming that God dislikes homosexuality? The answer is no, I am not like the father of your church, Luther - a "Cafeteria Christian". I actually believe James, Hebrews and the book of Revelation are part of sacred scripture.

Your denomination says that, based on Scripture, God says marraige is between a man and a woman. You say they are wrong.

No. I say that it is wrong for my church to dictate the behavior of nonmembers - including you (you're welcome).

I give you an article showing where the Pope himself says that gay marriage will destroy civilization. You say that's just his opinion and he is wrong.
Certain events like Noah's Ark are given as fact in the Bible. You say those events are just parables (even though they don't fit that criteria) and that they didn't actually happen.

Where did I say he was wrong? I said I do not agree with his opinion. Show me in the Catholic Catechism where it tells Catholic members that they have to agree with the Pope.

You somehow feel qualified to say that anyone who speaks from the pulpit but are overweight is guilty of gluttony (your words).

According to your logic, not mine, friend.

Your opinion even leaves you feeling qualified to claim that those who vote against gay marraige are, "violating the civil rights" of homosexuals (your words).

Which raises an important question - when did you acquire the qualifications to determine how I feel about anything? And how does that relate to what I actually think?

Man, that is one big ego.

Or, more accurately; ONE BIG STRAWMAN.......

Wow, Foreigner.....gotta say, I am a bit disappointed.....

I thought you knew me by now....your portrayal of me shows differently - it is like your are constructing a portrait of me using a 'paint by numbers' approach.....based on a crazy image in your own mind. And the farther you trip through your own thoughts....the wilder the image.

Maybe you do need your fellow students to interpret my posts for you.....

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

You wrote this at the top of this page in post #31.

You are choosing not to open your eyes and see that a society cannot exist if theft, false testimony or murder were allowed to exist unpunished. Homosexuality is a sin against self, not society. The problem is not with my view of Democracy at all - the problem is with your inability to see that societal norms are changing in this country in regard to homosexual marriage - your view will become the minority viewpoint in the next decade or sooner.

I've been thinking a lot about your position on this, as I can see what you are saying, and I have no difficulty with your wanting to live out the love of God to sinners. My question to myself has been, is the stance you're taking on the overall matter of society's attitude, the attitude written in scripture for Christians? The answer has to be: it is not.

Here's how I justify that statement.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

If, as you point out is happening today, a nation turns against God's ordinances to promote evil to its subjects, we see in Jeremiah's case, that God had first to speak to him about what was going on, and then led him preach repentance for twenty-three years, to all the inhabitants, from the king to the most lowly subject in the land, because:

Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love [to have it] so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

God's response to their idolatry was: when His judgment falls, He will ignore the cries of those who refused to hear Him.

It cannot be okay for Christians not to side with God publicly, in matters which are so near to His heart, as resisting idolatry. And this is open to us through prayer, through service, and through the ballot box (in our cases, as we live in democracies). It has to be noted that the flaw in democracy, is that people are born alientated from God.

The two main options for a Christian are as bleak as each other.

1) Refuse to promote God's agenda and be judged with the rest, or,

2) Stand up to 'the rest' by promoting God's agenda, and risk social exclusion at least, and death at most.

Neither of these prevent the Christian from loving the sinner in all personal relationships. However, given God's frequent cry for justice for the poor and needy (the widow, the orphan, the abused and downtrodden) if Christians don't stand up for them, who will? (That is, stand up for them to not be sinned against by the greedy, rich and strong.)

When Israel failed, God brought salvation by Himself, for Himself, through Himself, to bring injustice to an end.

The recipe for salvation to all mankind is to have no other God than Yahweh.

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:


I realise it's a personal exercise of heart in God's presence and also of His prompting, to bring oneself to a place of decision about whether one would lay down one's life for Christ's sake, but to me, this is the logical conclusion of the question of whether to go along with compromise, or to be a light in the darkness which seeks to envelop us.

At the very least, we have to be different from 'the world', as well as that idolaters have to find us approachable when/if they want to turn to God, just as the father was to the prodigal son. Above all, we have to maintain a testimony which promotes Christ's pureness and dynamic power to change a person from a sinner to a saint.

Paul Washer says that when he's preaching, he wants the sinner to feel isolated from God, to feel his need for God. I think is partly what I'm trying to convey - that by us lifting the Lord up to folk, they feel their distance from Him.

 

[brightmorningstar]

AMEN Dragofly, Amen Foreigner 100%

Praise God for your posts.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello again aspen,

You asked for a verse, in post #41. Here it is:

1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
and if the world shall be judged by you,
are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 

[Winnetou]

I find it astonishing! The thread deals with the question whether non-Christians and unbelieving shall submit to Christian values; and the homosexuality topic is again in a forum. And it is often treated with false information. E.g. heterosexuall men are far more highly as the number of homosexual men who fall ill with HIV/AIDS . This results from a Statistics from the WHO (2002 0r 2003, as I remember). Men like to go to countries where they can have sex without condoms (they can infect their wife through what), anyway; or prostitutes go one into the brothel or on the street line.
I ask you,please return back to the thread and the original topic.

 

[InHisGrace07]

Truth is that would be impossible!

Scripture speaking of the sinner:
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity (deep hatred/resentment) against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Scripture speaking of the born-again believer:
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Romans 8:7-9 (NKJV)

As born-again believers we have the leading of the Holy Spirit who dwells w/in us guiding us and convicting us of what is right and what is wrong. This is part of our new nature in Christ. Just like any loving father teaches his child what is good for them and what is bad for them...our heavenly Father does the same for us by His Spirit.

However, those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior DO NOT have this new nature...they are not part of the family of God. Therefore, having the sin nature all they have is the capacity to sin, being selfish and self-centered. Because until they surrender to God and make Him the authority over their lives, they are a god onto themselves...ruling over the throne of their own hearts.

In conclusion, they possess a nature that is contrary to the values of God.

What's more important is that you introduce them to Christ. That you share the Gospel w/them. Share w/them the love of God and what He wants to save them from. Once they accept Him...then they'll accept His values.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Winnetou,

I find it astonishing! The thread deals with the question whether non-Christians and unbelieving shall submit to Christian values; and the homosexuality topic is again in a forum.

Why, because you support homosexuality?

And it is often treated with false information. E.g. heterosexuall men are far more highly as the number of homosexual men who fall ill with HIV/AIDS . This results from a Statistics from the WHO (2002 0r 2003, as I remember). Men like to go to countries where they can have sex without condoms (they can infect their wife through what), anyway; or prostitutes go one into the brothel or on the street line.
I ask you,please return back to the thread and the original topic.

Naah, you wanted to promote the unbelief, as you see from God's word quoted in the last post, it is very much part of the issue.

NB it was aspen2 who also wont vote against homosexual relations who first mentioned gay and homosexual in post #25.

 

[Foreigner]

What this issue now comes down to is, whether or not the United States is a theocracy or a secular state. - Aspen

-- It is a secular state. Always has been.
And no, refusing to redefine the longstanding definition of marraige does not suddenly make it a theocracy.



This issue has become far too complicated to pursue any further - sorry, when it comes to mental gymnastics this advanced, I am just an amateur. Nevermind! - Aspen

-- So you can find no connection between opposing gay marraige and Sharia law, either. That was simple.




Pointing out how scripturally retarded you think I am, is not going to win you any points with God, Foreigner - Aspen

-- Neither will pretending that you don't understand that God defines marraige as one man and one woman, Aspen




I cannot say the same for your own judgment towards homosexuals. - Aspen

-- So, actually working to help them to realize God loves them, their sin is no worse than anyone else's, and that there is eternal salvation if they will turn away from their sin.......is judging.




Still favored by God. Did they lose their relationship with God? The answer is no. - Aspen

-- David impregnanted a married woman, arranged for her husband to be killed, then claimed her as his own, but he didn't "lose his relationship with God" either. Using your reasoning, that's because God had no problem with the whole infidelity/murder thing.

There were repercussions for his sins, but he didn't lose his place in God's heart.
Same with Abraham, Sara and Hagar and their sin. Surely you remember what they went through for what they did....no?




Nope - who comes out unscathed in this life? Jesus was crucified, remember? - Aspen

-- Jesus was pure and crucified due due to His obedience.
Abraham, Sara and Hagar were "scaithed" because of their sin.
I really thought you would be able to comprehend the difference....




Apparently you didn't get the gist of the story. You see, Jesus confronted a bunch of Pharisees who were about to stone a guilty women. Instead of joining in on their righteous judgment, Jesus told the Pharisees to continue only if they to were innocent of sin. Then, when Jesus was the only person left, He told the women to go forth and sin no more - He was the only person who was in the place of righteous judgment over her because He was sinless and He chose not to condemn her. - Aspen

-- Soooo....you are equating sharing the Gospel with homosexuals to help them receive eternal life and let them know God loves them......with the intention of stoning them to death? Interesting....




[background=rgb(247,247,247)]It is against the law to be the same gender and married in Colorado. In fact it is against the State Constitution. This means that homosexuals that get married in Colorado - and there will certainly be protesters that go through with the ceremony will be jailed. Do you really believe that any state that goes through the legal hoops and spends the money to pass a law outlawing homosexual marriage is not going to jail people who break that law? - Aspen[/background]

-- If homosexuals get married in another state and move to CO, that marraige simply isn't recognized....they aren't jailed.
If homosexuals find someone to marry them in CO, the state simply doesn't recognize the marraige as valid....they aren't jailed.
So again, it appears your "I don't believe in slippery slopes" comment was actually not honest.




Since when is it our job to convince people of the truth? - Aspen

-- Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
How do we help people learn this "truth?" Simple: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Sure sounds like our job....at least that's what Jesus says.




"All I said was that God did not define marraige." - Aspen

-- However, God did define marraige.
The denomination you claim to belong to agrees with that fact.




​Huh?!? If I was sophisticated and 'edumacated enuff' to pick and choose which scripture to follow - why would I bother proclaiming that God dislikes homosexuality? - Aspen

-- Because there is no scripture that says otherwise?




The answer is no, I am not like the father of your church, Luther - a "Cafeteria Christian". I actually believe James, Hebrews and the book of Revelation are part of sacred scripture. - Aspen

-- Tell me again how Luther was the father of a Charismatic church....a church that happens to believe "James, Hebrews and the book of Revelation are part of sacred scripture." 'Cause that's my church.




Where did I say he was wrong? I said I do not agree with his opinion. - Aspen

-- I encourage you to reread that, and join me in laughing.




According to your logic, not mine, friend. - Aspen

-- Actually, if you go back to when you were saying that anyone overweight who was speaking from the pulpit was guilty of gluttony and thus hypocritical, you did indeed claim authority to make those observations.
Don't take my word for it. Go see for yourself.




Which raises an important question - when did you acquire the qualifications to determine how I feel about anything? And how does that relate to what I actually think?

-- Linguistic trainwreck aside, do you really think it takes a rocket scientist to determine how you feel about something when you repeatedly - in multiple threads, no less - say exactly how you feel about something?




Wow, Foreigner.....gotta say, I am a bit disappointed.....

-- I am not surprised, with the opinions that you hold.....


.