Are Pastors Teaching a Watered-Down Gospel?

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Soverign Grace

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entertainment is passed off as worship with few parishioners able to distinguish the difference.

We tried a "now" church one time - the pastor had long hair and used all the current lingo. The clincher was when a young girl got up on stage and sang, writhing very worldly. Then when we went to leave I have never seen such rude behavior: everyone was pushing and cutting in front of others - we never went back. There are warnings about compromise and those who want to grow a church sometimes lose sight of the fact that the goal is holiness.
 

Enoch111

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After thinking this through, it's apparent there is no such thing as a "watered down" "Gospel."
Well if a *Gospel preacher* will omit any reference to sin, wrath, Hell, repentance, and conversion, that would be a watered down Gospel. One cannot present the Good News without first presenting the Bad News. But many today are trying to avoid the Bad News, which Paul presented first (by divine inspiration).

No sooner did he begin writing Romans than he said this: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

Shortly after that he said this: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Shortly after that he said this: Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Shortly after that he said this: But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Shortly after that he said this: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

Now any preacher worth his salt would need to give an exposition on each of these verses before presenting the Good News. And that does not seem to be happening. If there is no Bad News, then there would be no need for the Good News, the Glad Tidings, the Gospel of Grace.
 

Preacher4Truth

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Well if a *Gospel preacher* will omit any reference to sin, wrath, Hell, repentance, and conversion, that would be a watered down Gospel. One cannot present the Good News without first presenting the Bad News.

Nope, it's not a "watered down gospel" it's not a Gospel at all. To diminish or add to it makes it not the Gospel.

Galatians 1:6-7 is clear, there is not another.

Saying God saves based on what he saw man would do is not a gospel either, so for simplification we call it a false gospel, but, it is no gospel at all.

There is not another.
 

quietthinker

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We tried a "now" church one time - the pastor had long hair and used all the current lingo. The clincher was when a young girl got up on stage and sang, writhing very worldly. Then when we went to leave I have never seen such rude behavior: everyone was pushing and cutting in front of others - we never went back. There are warnings about compromise and those who want to grow a church sometimes lose sight of the fact that the goal is holiness.
SG....some years ago I was blocked from entering the church I frequented for about six months. Guards were placed at the door to ensure that very thing. I would turn up week after week after week. One week I waited out of sight till the service had started. When the guards had relaxed and sat down I quickly slipped by them and sat in a pew. The sermon was on love. It was not over five minutes when the elders including the pastor came up to me demanding I get out immediately. I didn't move but asked what it was that offended them. The reply, 'just get out'. Refusing to move they called the Police. This happened twice by a Church who claimed a special ministry for the broken.

When the Gospel of Jesus becomes a threat to Church culture, when this is voiced you can be assured there will be reaction in one form or another.
 
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Willie T

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Quiet thinker,
It is more than evident why SG would be considered someone almost no church, or ANY organization for that matter, would want around...… But, how did you make yourself persona non grata?
 

quietthinker

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Quiet thinker,
It is more than evident why SG would be considered someone almost no church, or ANY organization for that matter, would want around...… But, how did you make yourself persona non grata?
Several reasons I think Willie, although I was never told directly.
I was holding bible studies at home without the permission/sanction of the leadership; they were invited but never came. That was one reason. Secondly, the ministry they claimed for broken or street people didn't find that many in the Church although there were three or four. I noticed these folk were on the outer and befriended them with conversation after the main service. The minister approached me one day as I was doing renovations on their Church, he said, I notice you are talking to such and such after the services, I said yes, he said, I would prefer if you left that to me. I asked him if he was curtailing my right to speak to whoever. He never answered but did say my approach was too Christological. The story continues with parishioners being threatened with discipline if they had anything to do with me and so on.
I coined this poem at that time:

SOUTH MELBOURNE

The pressure's on, don't come back here
cold shoulders flying spittle
you unrepentant devils child
my heart it's oh so brittle

Pickets placed, Police are called
just get him out of here
and anyone that interacts
the discipline they fear

That precious pearl that once was held
aloft for all to see
down it was cast and painted glass
was treasured more than he

Forgive them Lord, those final words
before he fell asleep
while in the crowd a watching man
would lead the future sheep

Clear, insightful, focus sharp
with passion now he meets us
there's only one consuming urge
to introduce his Jesus

Let's listen well, unplug our ears
it's worth a second look
this understated gift we're given
revealed within the book.

July 2002
 

Pearl

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SG....some years ago I was blocked from entering the church I frequented for about six months. Guards were placed at the door to ensure that very thing. I would turn up week after week after week. One week I waited out of sight till the service had started. When the guards had relaxed and sat down I quickly slipped by them and sat in a pew. The sermon was on love. It was not over five minutes when the elders including the pastor came up to me demanding I get out immediately. I didn't move but asked what it was that offended them. The reply, 'just get out'. Refusing to move they called the Police. This happened twice by a Church who claimed a special ministry for the broken.

When the Gospel of Jesus becomes a threat to Church culture, when this is voiced you can be assured there will be reaction in one form or another.
That's terrible. No love there then.
 

Soverign Grace

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Well if a *Gospel preacher* will omit any reference to sin, wrath, Hell, repentance, and conversion, that would be a watered down Gospel. One cannot present the Good News without first presenting the Bad News. But many today are trying to avoid the Bad News, which Paul presented first (by divine inspiration).

No sooner did he begin writing Romans than he said this: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...

Shortly after that he said this: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Shortly after that he said this: Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Shortly after that he said this: But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Shortly after that he said this: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile

Now any preacher worth his salt would need to give an exposition on each of these verses before presenting the Good News. And that does not seem to be happening. If there is no Bad News, then there would be no need for the Good News, the Glad Tidings, the Gospel of Grace.

That's a really good overview and summary that one can't teach the good news before preaching the bad.

2 Timothy 4:3

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;”

It also made me think of the following verse which covers both sides as you pointed out:

Romans 11:22

“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.”
 
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Soverign Grace

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SG....some years ago I was blocked from entering the church I frequented for about six months. Guards were placed at the door to ensure that very thing. I would turn up week after week after week. One week I waited out of sight till the service had started. When the guards had relaxed and sat down I quickly slipped by them and sat in a pew. The sermon was on love. It was not over five minutes when the elders including the pastor came up to me demanding I get out immediately. I didn't move but asked what it was that offended them. The reply, 'just get out'. Refusing to move they called the Police. This happened twice by a Church who claimed a special ministry for the broken.

When the Gospel of Jesus becomes a threat to Church culture, when this is voiced you can be assured there will be reaction in one form or another.

That is shocking - I've only ever heard of that once before - David Stewart who has a website online was banished from a church. It was sad to read because he actually begged the leadership to allow him to come back because he had belonged to it for so many years. But it's hypocritical that they would put you out of a church while preaching on love. I have seen a lot in churches throughout our years of being believers. You don't have to answer if you don't want, but why did the keep you out of the church? It's just sad to hear something like that, as a church is where you think you should go to receive support and love.
 

Episkopos

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Several reasons I think Willie, although I was never told directly.
I was holding bible studies at home without the permission/sanction of the leadership; they were invited but never came. That was one reason. Secondly, the ministry they claimed for broken or street people didn't find that many in the Church although there were three or four. I noticed these folk were on the outer and befriended them with conversation after the main service. The minister approached me one day as I was doing renovations on their Church, he said, I notice you are talking to such and such after the services, I said yes, he said, I would prefer if you left that to me. I asked him if he was curtailing my right to speak to whoever. He never answered but did say my approach was too Christological. The story continues with parishioners being threatened with discipline if they had anything to do with me and so on.
I coined this poem at that time:

SOUTH MELBOURNE

The pressure's on, don't come back here
cold shoulders flying spittle
you unrepentant devils child
my heart it's oh so brittle

Pickets placed, Police are called
just get him out of here
and anyone that interacts
the discipline they fear

That precious pearl that once was held
aloft for all to see
down it was cast and painted glass
was treasured more than he

Forgive them Lord, those final words
before he fell asleep
while in the crowd a watching man
would lead the future sheep

Clear, insightful, focus sharp
with passion now he meets us
there's only one consuming urge
to introduce his Jesus

Let's listen well, unplug our ears
it's worth a second look
this understated gift we're given
revealed within the book.

July 2002

I've run into this sort of thing a number of times. The Napoleons of the church. Demagogues...religious tyrants... despots and martinets...for Christ? Petty kingdoms of men. These think it is THEIR church and not Christ's. They only recognize one ministry....their own. All else must be subdued to serve that ministry.

But the the church is to function in the very opposite way...to empower others. So who is serving whom?

You don't just walk away from a place like that...you run! :)
 
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Pearl

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That is shocking - I've only ever heard of that once before - David Stewart who has a website online was banished from a church. It was sad to read because he actually begged the leadership to allow him to come back because he had belonged to it for so many years. But it's hypocritical that they would put you out of a church while preaching on love. I have seen a lot in churches throughout our years of being believers. You don't have to answer if you don't want, but why did the keep you out of the church? It's just sad to hear something like that, as a church is where you think you should go to receive support and love.
I wouldn't want to belong to a church like that anyway.
 
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Soverign Grace

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Several reasons I think Willie, although I was never told directly.
I was holding bible studies at home without the permission/sanction of the leadership; they were invited but never came. That was one reason. Secondly, the ministry they claimed for broken or street people didn't find that many in the Church although there were three or four. I noticed these folk were on the outer and befriended them with conversation after the main service. The minister approached me one day as I was doing renovations on their Church, he said, I notice you are talking to such and such after the services, I said yes, he said, I would prefer if you left that to me. I asked him if he was curtailing my right to speak to whoever. He never answered but did say my approach was too Christological. The story continues with parishioners being threatened with discipline if they had anything to do with me and so on.
I coined this poem at that time:

SOUTH MELBOURNE

The pressure's on, don't come back here
cold shoulders flying spittle
you unrepentant devils child
my heart it's oh so brittle

Pickets placed, Police are called
just get him out of here
and anyone that interacts
the discipline they fear

That precious pearl that once was held
aloft for all to see
down it was cast and painted glass
was treasured more than he

Forgive them Lord, those final words
before he fell asleep
while in the crowd a watching man
would lead the future sheep

Clear, insightful, focus sharp
with passion now he meets us
there's only one consuming urge
to introduce his Jesus

Let's listen well, unplug our ears
it's worth a second look
this understated gift we're given
revealed within the book.

July 2002

I'm really sorry that you were put through that - it was so wrong. have seen bad leadership in churches too - we attended a church that I had always had an uneasy feeling about but I dismissed it and we continued going. Now I think that the Holy Spirit within had been warning me away from that church. The leadership told me in so many words that their word was sacrosanct. They completely violated the law of love. It hurt me so much that they hurt a family member so I prayed and asked God to take all peace and all sleep away from the pastor and leadership (as in the book of Esther when the king couldn't sleep.)

The following Sunday we went to that church (I was experiencing cognitive-dissonance and continued to attend there.) And the pastor stood up and said: "Your pastor couldn't sleep last night..." I about fell off the chair. After the service I told the pastor what I had been praying. He must have told everyone not that God had answered my prayer, but that I had used some other power to keep him from sleep! They couldn't acknowledge the fact that they were doing wrong and I guess they didn't think that a lowly person without a title such as myself could have a prayer answered.

I was then snubbed by people who came to our house and ate dinner with us, and whose houses we went over for bible study. It was really something - I saw that sometimes the worst sinners are the leadership. Pride is the biggest sin that I've found among church leadership. They actually had the gall to tell me that "God" put them in their positions and we have to listen to what they say. We left that church and a few years later they had a problem and that pastor left. I expect you'll experience the same.

Your poem is touching. I hope that you found another church or home group - not everyone is like that.
 
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Soverign Grace

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I've run into this sort of thing a number of times. The Napoleons of the church. Demagogues...religious tyrants... despots and matinets...for Christ? Petty kingdoms of men. These think it is THEIR church and not Christ's. They only recognize one ministry....their own. All else must be subdued to serve that ministry.

But the the church is to function in the very opposite way...to empower others. So who is serving whom?

You don't just walk away from a place like that...you run! :)

I have seen leadership like this in a few churches we were in. It really puzzles me how they build up these little kingdoms (as you've said) and then don't even follow the basic foundational tenet of the Christian faith - love. It's such a shame because I think there are probably a lot of the walking wounded - those who have been hurt in the church.
 
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Soverign Grace

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I wouldn't want to belong to a church like that anyway.

Neither would I Pearl. Before we left a church like that I was unsure what to do so I emailed 11 pastors and explained what the leadership had done. I heard back from 11 pastors who all told me that church was wrong. One pastor in particular - I'm really thankful for him - said what you did - that he wouldn't want to belong to a church like that. I went to the leadership and shared the 11 pastors' responses. The pastor was stiff-necked and refused to even discuss it - probably because he knew he was wrong. He said "you told those pastors what you wanted them to hear!" I was an open book and tried to give him their email addresses and told him that he could explain the situation from his POV - he refused. That told me that he wasn't willing to hold his actions up to the light - to scrutiny.

They're the same hypocrites who get up and sing beautiful songs to Jesus.

We left and it was one of the best decisions we made. A few years later the pastor was out.
 

Soverign Grace

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When churches focus on growth, the compromises start creeping in. My first church wanted to be a Joel Osteen-style megachurch. My 2nd church was on a much smaller scale (and so Christ-centered), but that church closed after the pastor and his family moved to Florida. My 3rd church started out with good intentions - their motto used to be "The church for people who don't like organized religion", but when they started growing, the focus was on growth, and they became the church that their motto didn't want to be.

And we left that 3rd church about 2 months ago. We've been attending an independent, Christ-centered church that has grown organically vice seeking growth. We are trying another church this Sunday that is similar to the one we've been trying out. My wife knows the father of the pastor, and she wants to give that church a chance before we settle on our new church home. We're trying not to church-hop, but we want to make sure we find one that has what we're looking for. We're not seeking a perfect church since they don't exist, but we're looking for something way more Christ-centered than our previous church and isn't trying to be a megachurch.

I think you made the right decisions - maybe "church-hopping" got a bad rap - it should be "seeking-an-authentic-church" - my husband and I had to wander in the church desert for 40 years before we found the church we've now belonged to for over 10 years. It's not perfect but I sense God's Spirit there - I don't know how else to describe it - I haven't felt that in any church I've ever been in. I take that as a clue that God has us where He wants us to be.

The interesting thing is that I stumbled on that church by accident. We had been attending a church where the leadership was dripping with pride and refused to marry our daughter - even though we had attended that church for about 2 years. It's interesting to note that the same church was marrying the daughter of an elder. That same elder always approached me and wanted to give me a "Christian" hug - but I have good instincts and I knew what he was doing was not Christian. So that church bowed to a lecher elder who was breaking God's laws and yet refused to help our daughter. It was ludicrous.

So I drove the next city over since we lived in a rural area with no churches. There were 3 churches in a row and I zeroed in on a Baptist church. We went in and talked to the pastor and he wholeheartedly told us that he would marry our daughter. His expression of love was so Christlike that it touched me - when the former church was judgmental. It was a beautiful wedding. The church was just beautiful inside. Because of that Pastor's willingness to help us we began attending his church and we haven't left. We've been there over 10 years now - maybe about 12 I'm not sure.

It was one of the best decisions we made. So that showed me that God saw our pain at being hurt at the former church, and He provided a place for our daughter to marry and also a home church.
 

Pearl

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I have seen leadership like this in a few churches we were in. It really puzzles me how they build up these little kingdoms (as you've said) and then don't even follow the basic foundational tenet of the Christian faith - love. It's such a shame because I think there are probably a lot of the walking wounded - those who have been hurt in the church.
I have to say we have been well blessed when it comes to church fellowships. We have only belonged to two in over forty years and both have been good.
 
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quietthinker

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That is shocking - I've only ever heard of that once before - David Stewart who has a website online was banished from a church. It was sad to read because he actually begged the leadership to allow him to come back because he had belonged to it for so many years. But it's hypocritical that they would put you out of a church while preaching on love. I have seen a lot in churches throughout our years of being believers. You don't have to answer if you don't want, but why did the keep you out of the church? It's just sad to hear something like that, as a church is where you think you should go to receive support and love.
There was probably stuff going on at different times that could have been incriminating I imagine......like a covert undercurrent of homosexuality.
 

Soverign Grace

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I have to say we have been well blessed when it comes to church fellowships. We have only belonged to two in over forty years and both have been good.

You're very fortunate. My husband and I are first generational Christians. I was raised Catholic and he nothing. So we didn't know how to even go about looking for a good church. I had no discernment early on. We lived in a very rural area and there weren't many churches around. I don't know what His purpose were. But I feel very at home at the church we're in. In fact we met a really down to earth pastor at a bible study that a couple from church started and it's been one of the best I've ever been to.

Were you raised Christian Pearl?
 
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Soverign Grace

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There was probably stuff going on at different times that could have been incriminating I imagine......like a covert undercurrent of homosexuality.

I recall Murry M'Cheyne said: "The seed of every known sin lies in my heart. We are like a petro-chemical plant." David said "In sin did my mother conceive me." No person has the right to exalt themselves above another. It always amuses me when pastors will point out others' sins while not seeing the pride in their own hearts. I hope that you keep looking - you'll find a good place. I'm glad that we didn't give up.
 

Pearl

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You're very fortunate. My husband and I are first generational Christians. I was raised Catholic and he nothing. So we didn't know how to even go about looking for a good church. I had no discernment early on. We lived in a very rural area and there weren't many churches around. I don't know what His purpose were. But I feel very at home at the church we're in. In fact we met a really down to earth pastor at a bible study that a couple from church started and it's been one of the best I've ever been to.

Were you raised Christian Pearl?
Not really, my parents weren't church people at all but I was sent to Sunday school and later church, so I believed in God and thought I was a Christian but I was thirty five when I found the truth. Although I'm pretty sure God had his hand on me from a young age as when I was about ten I 'went forward' as a response to a children's evangelist at a small mission church. But as my Sunday school did not teach Jesus in the same way it was never followed up.
 
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