Are The 144,000 Christian?

[Stan]

That's a Dispensationalist idea, not actually written in God's Word.

I'm NOT going to go into the whole teaching on this subject. Suffice it to say their service is clearly set out in the Bible and particularly in Daniel.
It's NOT an idea, it is exegetical proof.

 

[veteran]

I'm NOT going to go into the whole teaching on this subject. Suffice it to say their service is clearly set out in the Bible and particularly in Daniel.
It's NOT an idea, it is exegetical proof.

You don't have to go into some long teaching for those who study God's Word to know what you mean.

The idea that the 144,000 Israelites only witness to their own Israelite brethren is from the Dispensationalist doctrine that tries to sell a false Pre-trib Secret Rapture to the blind, saying Christ's Church is no longer here on earth at that Rev.7 point to be witnessed to. Those ideas are not written in God's Word either. They're made up stories by men, and all you're doing is following them, and not God in His Word.

 

[Stan]

You don't have to go into some long teaching for those who study God's Word to know what you mean.

The idea that the 144,000 Israelites only witness to their own Israelite brethren is from the Dispensationalist doctrine that tries to sell a false Pre-trib Secret Rapture to the blind, saying Christ's Church is no longer here on earth at that Rev.7 point to be witnessed to. Those ideas are not written in God's Word either. They're made up stories by men, and all you're doing is following them, and not God in His Word.

It's not false and it's not secret. The whole world will see Jesus' second coming and those that are left on earth will experience the tribulation. You asserting it it is false is just that, your assertion and your opinion, which doesn't alter the reality of what God's word says. Of course it is obvious you would NOT be receptive to opening your mind to it, so why should I bother trying to educate you based on your preceding comments?

 

[us2are1]

There are only 144,000 seats for the saints at Christ's return. They will rule during Christ's thousand year reign on earth. When they are resurrected back to life from death at Christ's return they will be raised Immortal and can never die again. They are Christ's holy angels who come with Him to subdue the earth. It all happens in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. As the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[veteran]

It's not false and it's not secret. The whole world will see Jesus' second coming and those that are left on earth will experience the tribulation. You asserting it it is false is just that, your assertion and your opinion, which doesn't alter the reality of what God's word says. Of course it is obvious you would NOT be receptive to opening your mind to it, so why should I bother trying to educate you based on your preceding comments?

Any time you'd like to show us in God's Word that's true, then I'm listening. But expect me to show you in Scripture to the contrary. By that I extend my hand to you as a brother in Christ Jesus, because if you truly love The LORD, surely you would want to understand Scripture that you've missed about it.

There are only 144,000 seats for the saints at Christ's return. They will rule during Christ's thousand year reign on earth. When they are resurrected back to life from death at Christ's return they will be raised Immortal and can never die again. They are Christ's holy angels who come with Him to subdue the earth. It all happens in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. As the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The 144,000 are made up of Israelites only per Rev.7, sealed with God's seal. It means they are His elect. So why wouldn't they be part of Christ's Church, ESPECIALLY if like you say, they are the only ones who will reign with Christ Jesus when He returns?

If Christ has prepared for them something better than what He has for us Gentiles of His Church, then why wouldn't we be included in that future reign with Christ Jesus? Why also, wouldn't we have that duty with them on earth prior to the "last trump"?

 

[Stan]

Any time you'd like to show us in God's Word that's true, then I'm listening. But expect me to show you in Scripture to the contrary. By that I extend my hand to you as a brother in Christ Jesus, because if you truly love The LORD, surely you would want to understand Scripture that you've missed about it.



The 144,000 are made up of Israelites only per Rev.7, sealed with God's seal. It means they are His elect. So why wouldn't they be part of Christ's Church, ESPECIALLY if like you say, they are the only ones who will reign with Christ Jesus when He returns?

If Christ has prepared for them something better than what He has for us Gentiles of His Church, then why wouldn't we be included in that future reign with Christ Jesus? Why also, wouldn't we have that duty with them on earth prior to the "last trump"?

As I just stated, I am NOT going to try and teach you something you don't want to learn. It has taken me years to come to my conclusions and understanding of the 144,000 and not something I would attempt to do on a forum. The fact that you think you can so easily refute it is kinda scary, but, He gives us more grace.

For the interested, here is a couple of sites you may find interesting, and a book you may want to look at.

http://www.lara.on.ca/~bene6920/Spirit%20and%20Truth%20Ministries/Israel%20Bible%20Prophecy/The%20144,000%20Messianic%20Jewish%20Witnesses.html

http://www.frankcaw.com/144000-Jews.html You can order the book at the end of this page.

 

[us2are1]

The 144,000 are made up of Israelites only per Rev.7, sealed with God's seal. It means they are His elect. So why wouldn't they be part of Christ's Church, ESPECIALLY if like you say, they are the only ones who will reign with Christ Jesus when He returns?

If Christ has prepared for them something better than what He has for us Gentiles of His Church, then why wouldn't we be included in that future reign with Christ Jesus? Why also, wouldn't we have that duty with them on earth prior to the "last trump"?

The 144,000 include the gentiles who will no longer be gentiles and it will include Jews that will no longer be Jews. it will include slaves who will no longer be slaves and it will include free who will no longer be free. It will include men who will no longer be men and it will include women who will no longer be women.

Galatians 3:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[veteran]

The 144,000 include the gentiles who will no longer be gentiles and it will include Jews that will no longer be Jews. it will include slaves who will no longer be slaves and it will include free who will no longer be free. It will include men who will no longer be men and it will include women who will no longer be women.

Galatians 3:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I think you need to read that first part of Rev.7 again of who those 144,000 are. Their tribes from Israel are specifically given, and when The LORD does that, He means it literally. Some desire to change what that Scripture says simply because they haven't studied enough of God's Word to know what it's about, nor do they understand why the "great multitude" is mentioned along with those a little later in that chapter.

 

[Stan]

The 144,000 include the gentiles who will no longer be gentiles and it will include Jews that will no longer be Jews. it will include slaves who will no longer be slaves and it will include free who will no longer be free. It will include men who will no longer be men and it will include women who will no longer be women.

Galatians 3:
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Yes as far as salvation is concerned, which is what Paul was talking about in Galatians. Rev 7 & 14 are talking about 12,000 picked from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Not Gentiles. These 144,000 are God's way to fulfill His promise to His chosen people. They have nothing to do with gentiles.

 

[sam]

Do the scripture portion Revelation 7 tells only 144000 are sealed?
Apostle John says he heard the number of those who were sealed. He also says the angel with the seal has not stopped sealing the saints 'at the time' he was witnessing the angel on his mission.

 

[Stan]

Do the scripture portion Revelation 7 tells only 144000 are sealed?
Apostle John says he heard the number of those who were sealed. He also says the angel with the seal has not stopped sealing the saints 'at the time' he was witnessing the angel on his mission.

Sorry I'm to lazy to search for this...what scriptures are you referring to?
Thanks

 

[us2are1]

Yes as far as salvation is concerned, which is what Paul was talking about in Galatians. Rev 7 & 14 are talking about 12,000 picked from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Not Gentiles. These 144,000 are God's way to fulfill His promise to His chosen people. They have nothing to do with gentiles.

That is not what the scriptures say it is also not the truth. God chooses who he wills to fill the seats avilable and has made the truth known so that none can righteously blame Him when the truth is revealed from heaven at the end.

This is the scripture that stated exactly who they are and where they are grafted in from. It doesn't include the twelve thrones for the apostles. or the two thrones for the end time witnesses.


Revelation 14
4 ---- These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[veteran]

Do the scripture portion Revelation 7 tells only 144000 are sealed?
Apostle John says he heard the number of those who were sealed. He also says the angel with the seal has not stopped sealing the saints 'at the time' he was witnessing the angel on his mission.

The "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9 are shown having been saved (past tense) and standing before The Lamb at the end. Those represent the believing Gentiles that remain waiting on Christ Jesus and are thus 'sealed' also, though that chapter does not specifically say... they are sealed. No one is going to make it through the coming tribulation standing in Christ Jesus against the coming fake messiah without God's sealing. Rev.9 showed us that.

In that Rev.7:9 verse about the "great multitude", they are from all nations and peoples, too many to be numbered. That's why they are not given as a short list like those 144,000 of Israel are.

Also, I would warn any thinking that that "great multitude" do not go through the tribulation like the 144,000 do. The Rev.7 description about that multitude shows they came out of great tribualtion having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus Christ). That definitely means they went through it, stood fast, and were saved at the end of it, and thus are gathered by Christ in final.

 

[JoeinArkansas]

The "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9 are shown having been saved (past tense) and standing before The Lamb at the end. Those represent the believing Gentiles that remain waiting on Christ Jesus and are thus 'sealed' also, though that chapter does not specifically say... they are sealed. No one is going to make it through the coming tribulation standing in Christ Jesus against the coming fake messiah without God's sealing. Rev.9 showed us that.

In that Rev.7:9 verse about the "great multitude", they are from all nations and peoples, too many to be numbered. That's why they are not given as a short list like those 144,000 of Israel are.

Also, I would warn any thinking that that "great multitude" do not go through the tribulation like the 144,000 do. The Rev.7 description about that multitude shows they came out of great tribualtion having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus Christ). That definitely means they went through it, stood fast, and were saved at the end of it, and thus are gathered by Christ in final.

Dear Veteran,
This is my first post here on this forum. Please forgive me from jumping in on this thread but I feel compelled to respond. Revelation is a book that is signified and is only to be understood by Christ's Elect. It is sealed to all others. You cannot take anything in Revelation literally. It is a book of symbols that have spiritual meaning. The only people who have been given this understanding have seen the spiritual second coming of Christ and have had their blindness (spiritual) healed. Without healed spiritual eyes and ears, no man can understand and believe the complete truth of Scripture. Only Christ's Elect that He has chosen are given to know His truth. Debating back and forth on Revelation without spiritual eyes and ears will lead to many false understandings of scripture. Concerning Ch. 7 of Revelation, simply put, the 144,000 are Christ's Elect - His Church. The second part of Revelation concerning the great multitude is referring to the final and great harvest of mankind (all of mankind, one left out). The church is first (the first fruits) and those that die not belonging to the church makeup the complete and final havest of mankind. Also, concerning Daniel, there is no final 7 years left to complete of the 70 weeks. There is only 3 1/2 years left and that 3 1/2 is a spiritual term. Christ came to complete the last week of years and that week started with Christ's earthly ministry. He was cut off during the midst of the week and now the remaining 3 1/2 years is being completed with His church (Rev. ch. 11). There is no plan for physical Israel to be in the church or to reign with Christ. Physical Israel must be cast into the lake of fire for judgment before they (along with all other nonbelieving Gentiles) will repent and find salvation in Christ. However, scripture makes it clear that all the fullness of the Gentiles will come to Christ first and Israel will be last. Then the end comes and Christ will present the full Kingdom of Heaven (all of mankind) up to God the Father, having completed His mission given to Him by the Father to save all of mankind.

Joe

 

[veteran]

Dear Veteran,
This is my first post here on this forum. Please forgive me from jumping in on this thread but I feel compelled to respond. Revelation is a book that is signified and is only to be understood by Christ's Elect. It is sealed to all others. You cannot take anything in Revelation literally. It is a book of symbols that have spiritual meaning.

Your first part I agree with, but not your last part. The majority of God's Word for that matter, is closed off to those outside His Church.

But Christ's Revelation most definitely... includes BOTH symbolic and literal accounts for the end of this world. Those who treat it as symbolic only have gone off the 'deep end', following the systems the occult mystics use of man's philosophy and mysticism. Even when God's Word is using SYMBOLOGY, it is SO AS to reveal literal truths. So the symbols are not given to stand by themselves, but given to make it EASIER for us to understand literal events and things.

The only people who have been given this understanding have seen the spiritual second coming of Christ and have had their blindness (spiritual) healed.

Well, that's all I need to hear to KNOW the doctrines of this world you're coming from. That's the Mysticism idea I mentioned. It is a false doctrine, not part of Christ's Church nor God's Word.

Do they get you to read works by Emmanuel Swedenborg or Jacob Boheme? (occult mystics)

 

[JoeinArkansas]

Your first part I agree with, but not your last part. The majority of God's Word for that matter, is closed off to those outside His Church.

But Christ's Revelation most definitely... includes BOTH symbolic and literal accounts for the end of this world. Those who treat it as symbolic only have gone off the 'deep end', following the systems the occult mystics use of man's philosophy and mysticism. Even when God's Word is using SYMBOLOGY, it is SO AS to reveal literal truths. So the symbols are not given to stand by themselves, but given to make it EASIER for us to understand literal events and things.






Well, that's all I need to hear to KNOW the doctrines of this world you're coming from. That's the Mysticism idea I mentioned. It is a false doctrine, not part of Christ's Church nor God's Word.

Do they get you to read works by Emmanuel Swedenborg or Jacob Boheme? (occult mystics)

Dear Veteran,
Here is what scripture says about Revelation:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I have not "gone off the deep end" nor do my beliefs come from "this world". My beliefs come strictly from scripture and it says that the book of Revelation is "signified". No where does it say it is to be taken literally in parts. Yet you even say "most definitely". Where does your understanding come from? If you believe I am wrong, please show me the scriptures. Scripture is all that will convince me. You are adding to scripture when you say that some parts are to be taken literally. Adding to scripture is a common mistake the "many" do to help support their doctrines of men. If you ever want to convince me of anything, you must show me the scriptures.

Also, you say that symbols are used so as to make it "easier" for us to understand literal events and things. However, scripture says the opposite is true.


Matt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.



Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Parables and symbols are used to conceal God's truth so that God can choose whom to reveal it. That is why scripture frequently says that scriptural understanding is only for those who have been given "eyes or ears" to understand. Eyes and ears are used to represent the healing of one's spiritual vision and hearing so that they can understand His truth. Also, the symbols and parables are not given to stand by themselves (as you said), however, they do stand when supported by other scriptures. The "sum of God's Word is truth" (Psa 119:160). God's Word does not contradict itself but rather, all parts work together to reveal His truth. At a minimum, a double witness of scripture is need to establish a truth of scripture and even then, it must not conflict with any other scripture. No where does scripture say that in order to understand it, it must be taken literally. Scripture says that Christ's words are "spirit" (John 6:63) and to understand what He says, one must have spiritual understanding (eyes and ears). Only God's Elect have been given to know the truth, all other follow the teachings of man.

I do not know the men you mentioned in your reply nor do I belong to any denominational church or for that matter, any group of people who claim to be followers of Christ. I am a man that has heard Christ's call to "come out of her my people". Along with my wife, I seek only to follow Christ and to know His God.

You said that you believe that the 144,000 represent Christ's church; who do you believe that the multitude "too numerous to count" represent? It cannot be the church because they are identified as being the 144,000. Plus the church is represented by the "few" and not the "many" (many are called, few are chosen). Even Christ said that when He returns, He questions whether or not He will find faith on earth. The church cannot be "too numerous to count". Who do you believe they are?

Joe

 

[sam]

The "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9 are shown having been saved (past tense) and standing before The Lamb at the end. Those represent the believing Gentiles that remain waiting on Christ Jesus and are thus 'sealed' also, though that chapter does not specifically say... they are sealed. No one is going to make it through the coming tribulation standing in Christ Jesus against the coming fake messiah without God's sealing. Rev.9 showed us that.

In that Rev.7:9 verse about the "great multitude", they are from all nations and peoples, too many to be numbered. That's why they are not given as a short list like those 144,000 of Israel are.

Also, I would warn any thinking that that "great multitude" do not go through the tribulation like the 144,000 do. The Rev.7 description about that multitude shows they came out of great tribualtion having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus Christ). That definitely means they went through it, stood fast, and were saved at the end of it, and thus are gathered by Christ in final.

Thank you for the reply.
I am of the view that the scripture is making it plain that 'the great multitude' denotes those saved from all the nations and the '144000' denoted are servants of God from among the Israel. Take note the number of those who were sealed from all tribes of Israel is a statement in past tense at a time when the angel with the seal is still continuing his task of sealing saints of God.T"144000" can be a symbolic number but it is a definite and completed count.
We have to keep in mind that the message is primarily to the saints in the 7 churches under going tribulation from the ruling authorities ans aso from the blasphemy of theeir Jewish neighbours. (Of course, the scripture is meant for all the believers through all the times till the coming of our Lord jesus Christ). So the message is clear to the saints in the churches (Rev 2: 9, 3: 9) that no more Jew is getting sealed for the reason that he is from the tribe of Israel, but only for one cause, that he has washed his robe in the blood of the Lamb. The old testament saints are those who 'were' sealed and we see them remembered as 'first fruits' in Revelation chapter 14. (Jer 2:3)
I don't have any doubt, we being those among the great multitude, we should anticipate to go through the time of great tribulation if we would be the 'those alive' at the time of Lord's coming.
Lord Jesus Christ has already made it clear that His servants will go through the great tribulation and it follows His coming on the clouds.

 

[veteran]

Thank you for the reply.
I am of the view that the scripture is making it plain that 'the great multitude' denotes those saved from all the nations and the '144000' denoted are servants of God from among the Israel. Take note the number of those who were sealed from all tribes of Israel is a statement in past tense at a time when the angel with the seal is still continuing his task of sealing saints of God.T"144000" can be a symbolic number but it is a definite and completed count.

Those of Rev.7:9 forward is a future forward view, after Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him. The subject timing of the Rev.7 is about God holding the four angels back who had control of the 'four winds'. The four winds is about the destruction on earth on the day of The Lord, the time when our Lord Jesus returns. The sealing of God's servants on earth is why He held those four winds back. So that sealing is in prep for the tribulation time. Those of Rev.7:9 forward shown having come out of great tribulation and washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb reveals they went through that tribulation too, overcame, and stand with Christ upon Mount Zion in the future.

In Rev.9 we're shown that only those NOT sealed with God's sealing can be stung by what comes out of the mouths of the locust army there, and it's to occur only for a period of five months. And they were told they cannot kill anyone NOT sealed. With that declaration we can then know that those with God's sealing cannot be stung, but can be killed. That's not just for the 144,000 though; it's for the great multitude also, because only those sealed with God's seal will overcome in the tribulation and stand with Jesus in the end. The sting idea there is from what comes out of the locust's mouths, which points to words that cause deception. So the ultimate purpose for God's sealing is so as not be deceived by any man, which was our Lord Jesus' very first warning in His Olivet Discourse.

 

[lawrance]

It's not false and it's not secret. The whole world will see Jesus' second coming and those that are left on earth will experience the tribulation. You asserting it it is false is just that, your assertion and your opinion, which doesn't alter the reality of what God's word says. Of course it is obvious you would NOT be receptive to opening your mind to it, so why should I bother trying to educate you based on your preceding comments?

You are one of the jews for jesus types ? with that "left behind type rubbish !" con job !

I will put it to you this way, Jesus is for the Jews, not the other way round. not only for the Jews but all people, that's why he came.

Because someone is Jewish it means jack, as there is no such thing, as when Christ came, all are the same and if one was to think they are not the same people under Christ that is rejecting Jesus.

The people of God are the people in Jesus Christ.

The Jew was never a people of God, that's true Israel and they knew who Jesus was, and now is !

Jews for jesus ? give me a brake, he does not need you lot, you need him ! "blasphemy"