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Are The 144,000 Christian?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by guysmith, Apr 7, 2010.

  1. Ace Michaels

    Ace Michaels New Member

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    I believe I have God's seal in my forehead because He called me and I answered in faith. I study His letter to me and try hard to live as He wants me to. I ask His advice all the time about things in my life and He guides me.
     
    whitestone likes this.
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    And thusly you will be blessed, including with understanding in His Word if you ask Him directly for it, and show yourself approved of Him with disciplined Bible study.
     
  3. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    I stand corrected it was a poor choice of words on my part because I do understand that There is neither [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]Jew[/background] nor [background=rgb(255, 255, 150)]Greek[/background], there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for there is only one body of Christ.

    This scripture tells who the 144,000 are.

    Revelation 14
    4 ----------- These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
     
  4. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's still not Biblically and historically correct, for the 144,000 of Rev.7 indeed are all Israelites of the seed. But it's the "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 forward that represents us Gentile believers. And if you'll notice, the number of that "great multitude" is not defined, pointing to the idea they are an inumerable multitude, many more than just the 144,000 Israelites of the seed.
     
  5. whitestone

    whitestone New Member

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    The key to all this is found in the Abrahamic Covenant, as disclosed in detail by Jacob;
    Gen_48:13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
    Gen_48:14
    And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
    Gen 48:19
    And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
    Gen_48:20
    And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.





    All those prior to the cross, of the "Faith of Abraham" are the 144000. That is the "older son" (Israel under moses) which answers to "Manasseh", the "lesser inheritance".

    The younger son receiving the inheritance over the older son throughout the O.T. such as with (Able, Isaac, Jacob etc), was orchestrated by God for us to understand that the Birthright does not come by flesh inheritance, but only by Faith. Not from Moses, but from Jesus, who as risen from the dead, is the Firstborn Son of God.

    First group 144000 is O.T. Israel.

    The "second group" are those of the "greater inheritance" which is those who are born of the Seed of Abraham AFTER the cross, the "great multitude without number". (Those born of Christ in the Gospel). The N.T. Israel without number.

    All those since the cross, of the "Faith of Abraham" are the "great multitude without number".

    They are all redeemed in Christ, the "Seed" of Abraham, by which we are all "Fathered".

    It is the simple fulfillment of the prophecy of the Blessing of the Great Covenant, as specifically promised. Over and over it is mentioned in the prophets, here is one example;

    (Deu 33:17) His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

    There it is in a nutshell :)

    "All Israel being saved" :)

    Only Israel is "saved". Jesus isn't sent to non-Israel;

    Matt 15:214
    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    If you are in Christ, you are Israel.
    Peace,
    Whitestone
     
  6. us2are1

    us2are1 Son Of Man

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    The forgiveness, grace and adoption by God of His saint's from every nation tribe and tongue makes them virgins and holy sons of God following the Lamb whereever He goes and for those who can understand it and accept it, Who can annul it?

    As for the great multitude? You will notice they still need to be led and shepherded. because there were to many lies for them to find the true way. It will take the great tribulation and the wrath of God to bring them out of their insanity.

    Rev 7
    16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; [background=rgb(246, 246, 152)]17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."[/background]
     
  7. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey Whitestone...can I ask a question to clarify?
    Are you saying here that no gentiles at all (after Christ) will be saved, since we are not "Israel"...or are you saying that all who have faith in Christ (since his death) are in fact true "Israel"?
    Thanks!
     
  8. whitestone

    whitestone New Member

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    Hi Rach :)

    Thank you for your question, and for actually being nice :) I don't get that much on this website so thank you for that.
    No, the Lord sure doesn't say anything like that.
    Nor does He say you are "not Israel" nor did I say that.
    ALL who have faith in Christ, whether prior to or since His death, are "All Israel Saved".
    Through His Saints, Jesus has been gathering Israel together in One Body (church) for 2000 years now. Through the Gospel preached by His followers is the only way He has done it, is doing it, and will continue doing it until the end when no one is left to call. At that time, "all Israel is saved".
    Aka, "the Hope of Israel".
    We who are of Israel worship our King, the King of Israel, Jesus.

    The N.T. message is the salvation to Israel, long awaited for, the "Kingdom of God".
    We who receive this message of our King are His Nation Israel forever :)
    Remember, Jesus is ONLY sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    If you have responded to His call, you are Israel.
    Simple :)

    Here is how we begin to learn what the N.T. (New Covenant to Israel) is all about;

    (Luk 1:16) And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
    (Luk 1:54) He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
    (Luk 1:68) Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    (Luk 2:32) A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
    (Joh 1:31) And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
    Jesus was manifest to Israel when He walked the earth. Then His disciples carry on the evangelizing of Israel through baptism;
    (Act 2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    (Act 2:36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
    (Act 5:31) Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
    (Act 10:36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
    (Act 10:36) The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
    (Rom 9:27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
    (Rom 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    (Eph 2:12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    (Gal 6:16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
    (Heb 8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    (Heb 8:10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    (Rev 7:4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    (Rev 21:12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

    If you've ever read the book of James and received any of that Disciples teachings, you are receiving that which is intended for you as the opening verse says;

    (Jas 1:1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    You have to go clear back to the O.T. and read of when the tribes of Israel were "scattered abroad" as James is referencing. After the scattering into the "nations"(gentiles), they were referred to as the "dispersed". It was always a wonder to the 2 remaining tribes of the "Jews" (Judah and Levi), of how the other tribes scattered would be re-gathered as reflected in their query here;

    (Joh 7:35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

    Of course, we who answer that call out of the nations (gentiles) ARE the re-gathering promised to the dispersed of Israel. This is the only way we can understand how Salvation is only to Israel :)

    O how far are His thoughts above us! This is such an awesome revelation of understanding through scriptural exegesis and the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, and I am quite pleased to share it with you Rach, in the Love of Christ Jesus our Lord :)

    Blessings in Israel!
    Whitestone
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The Romans 11 Scripture is indeed... about Salvation to both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, but Paul's quote from Isaiah about all Israel being saved was in context of the unbelievers of the 'seed' being turned to Christ in final. That specific topic began with these verses...


    Rom 11:23-25
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    (KJV)


    The "Israel" Paul was talking about there is not the spiritual Israel concept he was covering back in Romans 9, which is about believing Gentiles becoming spiritual Israelites through Christ Jesus. Paul is talking about the literal seed of Israel here in Rom.11. Not just that point only, but Paul is WARNING GENTILE BELIEVERS against being wise in their own conceits about literal Israel's graffing in again.

    It is then... that Paul lays out that all Israel shall be saved as per Scripture in the OT prophets...

    Rom 11:26-27
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
    (KJV)


    There are many OT Scriptures Paul did not specifically quote about that future time which are included with what he was teaching; we cannot just leave them out...

    Ezek 36:24-32
    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments, and do them.
    28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God.
    29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
    30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
    31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
    32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
    (KJV)

    God is able to do what He says. Let no man say otherwise.



    Jer 50:19-20
    19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead.
    20 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.
    (KJV)

    Amos 9:8-15
    8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
    9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
    10 All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
    11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
    12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by My name, saith the LORD That doeth this.
    13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
    14 And I will bring again the captivity of My people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
    15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.
    (KJV)


    After that, only those of the seed of Israel that still refuse to believe on Jesus Christ after Christ's Milennium reign, will be cut off from eternal Life. And that's the proper Biblically context of applying the "all Israel shall be saved" idea Paul preached in Romans 11.
     
  10. Stan

    Stan New Member

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    Whitestone, I can, with 100% certainty, trace ALL my comments with you to your initial ad hominem attacks against me and any others who disagree with you. No matter how much you cloak them in spiritualese, the intent is obvious and very condescending, which is very amusing based on your stand that you don't SIN. The evidence on this site is quite to the contrary my friend.
    Remember God's law...you will reap what you sow.
     
  11. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hi Whitestone...thanks for your reply and clearing that up for me....I completely agree!

    I must confess that I haven't read the beginning of this topic, but my comment in regards to the title....ah..yeah the 144,000 are Christian! Doesn't matter if they're "Jewish" or not...to be saved they will have to come to faith in Jesus. So, yup, they're Christian!!
     
  12. whitestone

    whitestone New Member

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    Don't believe a word of this stuff here Rach. This isn't of God. Remember,

    (Rom 3:4)

    God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    The entire message of veteran here is to destroy what Paul says is fulfilled to Israel in Christ.

    He and stan and brother dave and many others here divorce themselves from the House of Israel and the salvation of Christ. Don't let yourself fall into their hell.

    Peace,
    Whitestone
     
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    One should take notice that you have failed to provide any Scripture evidence at all that counters my coverage of Rom.11 in that previous post. Instead, you have taken up the devil's advocate roll, which destroys any credibility you might have had.

    Now, for those interested, the reason why... God is going to gather all of the seed of Israel when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, LIKE APOSTLE PAUL said starting at Romans 11:25, is because of what Paul ALSO SAID about the seed of Israel here...

    Rom 11:28-29
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    (KJV)


    When GOD Himself makes one His elect servant, NO MAN can change that.

    But it's easy to see that SOME here, like whitestone, thinks man can annul God's election of the seed of Israel.
     
  14. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey Veteran. Again I'm only coming in at the end of this conversation, so please forgive me if I'm overlooking something you've already said....but are you saying that you believe that national Israel will again 'grafted' back into the body of Christ?
     
  15. Stan

    Stan New Member

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    Yes Rach, I believe that as well. Paul teaches that in Romans 11...it is a very good book to read, in order to understand our position in Christ and that of God's chosen people.
     
  16. JosyWales

    JosyWales New Member

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    You guys realize that the sealing shown in Revelation concerning the 144,000 is first mentioned in Eze 9 dont you:

    I wonder if any of you have even seen this, much less what it means:

    Eze 9:2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them [was] clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

    Eze 9:3 ¶ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;

    Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

    (Remember :

    Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

    Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads)


    Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

    Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.

    Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

    You folks might be really suprised when you see what is really going to happen.

    The Seven Angels of Revelation are real people. The 144,000 are real people. I believe that the man clothed in linen is Michael, who will be born into the world to fight the beast and herald in the second coming of Christ. The Mark will be the true baptism of the Holy Spirit (after the manner described in Acts) that will place a mark 'in their forheads' which will be given to those who deserve it by Michael and will save them from the onslaught that will follow (this is how the true believers will be saved, not flying up into the sky like some teach).

    The original 144,000 will be of Jewish descent but they will be followers of Jesus (having recieved the same baptism that He recieved during His time on earth and who He promised those who REALLY believe in Him will also get) and after them the rest of the world will follow, with those who 'weep for the iniquities of the world" being given the same treatment (of being marked) to save them from the wrath of the Angels (who are actually real men sent from god as per the above scripture) that God has promised will be unleashed upon the Earth.
     
  17. Jon-Marc

    Jon-Marc New Member

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    Since they will be witnessing for Christ during the tribulation, I would say that they are Christians. Many will come to Christ during the tribulation as people realize that what they had heard all their lives was actually true after all when the bride of Christ (the church) is removed (and many others including babies) just prior to the tribulation since the tribulation is God's wrath upon the world and not upon the bride of Christ.
     
  18. Stan

    Stan New Member

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    The 144,000 will not be witnessing to any Gentiles. ONLY to God's chosen, the Israelites.
     
  19. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Actually I do believe that Romans 9 & 11 point towards a regathering of national Jews back to God (through Christ, of course!). I just wanted to know if that was what Veteran was saying or not, as I wasn't clear!
    I do believe that the Church is also 'true Israel', but that before the end God will open the eyes of many national Jews and let them see Jesus for who He really is.
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Yes, those who turn to Christ Jesus and believe. That is ALWAYS a requirement.

    Problem is, many have missed what Christ's future "thousand years" reign is for. See Ezekiel 44 and point to those that stand in judgment there during that future time. Note how the Levites are included in contrast to the Zadok (the Just).

    Christ's Church is... God's true Israel today. That's why Paul used the "commonwealth of Israel" label in Eph.2. But there are many other Biblical reasons than just that.

    Only by thorough study of both the Old Testament Books and New Testament Books together, will one come to understand what I'm talking about. The reason why many reject the prophecies about literal Israel in the OT that have no... history of coming to pass, is because of how many believe God 'permamently' rejected the unbelieving seed of Israel. This is why they often misuse Rom.9 about spiritual Israel while rejecting what's foretold about the rest of the seed that still refuse today (i.e., Rom.11:25 forward).

    At the end of Rom.11, Paul specifically covered the 'reason' why Israel "in part" has been blinded by God. It was so The Gospel could ALSO go to the Gentiles, making Christ's Salvation for everyone who believes, and not just for the small remnant of the seed of Israel of Rom.11:1-5. So even until Christ's future "thousand years" reign is over, no man can say they have all been lost yet, especially... since God is Who blinded them for His Salvation purposes for us Gentiles who have believed.

    Until their blindness from God is removed, we are not justified in saying they are lost to Christ Jesus. We can clearly see that blindness is still today upon the majority of them (even minus the "crept in unawares" among Judah that aren't even of the seed of Israel).

    It's the "tares" of Matt.13 which has caused, and is causing most of their blindness. We know the "tares" will not be removed from among the true wheat unti summer harvest time. That's why the future "thousand years" is necessary.

    That's a Dispensationalist idea, not actually written in God's Word.
     
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