Are The Elect The Only Saved Souls?

[whirlwind]

John 6:44 No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Some teach that only the elect are to be saved and they use the above verse as confirmation of that Calvinistic doctrine. That is not what the verse is telling us. It is indeed about the very elect for the "man" in "no man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him," is the man child, the very elect, the saints. They are those sent in the last days and He raises them when He abides in them.

They no longer "dwell on earth" but walk the earth as they "dwell in heaven" for He dwells in them......

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.​

They, the man child, are those "called according to His purpose"...

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.​

Their purpose, for which they are called, is to be conformed to His image. What is His image, what was He sent to do for that is what the man child is to do? That is their purpose in being called. Not to be some select group chosen to live with Him while the rest of the world is thrown in the lake of fire. They are to be the firstborn, firstfruits among MANY BRETHREN.

John 6:45-47 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.' Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save He Which is of God, He hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me hath everlasting life.​

There are many that do and shall "believeth on" Him and they have....everlasting life. Are they all the very elect? No! Of those believers some are the "many called," and some are the "few chosen." The others are those that have been or will be taught. The very elect are those that hear and see...they are "taught of God." They "hear" His voice and "see," understand, what is written as His Spirit teaches them. What is their duty....to allow the Spirit to speak through them to bring others to Him so they too have "everlasting life." Those "firstfruits" are born in the last days (last [in the last days] shall be first [fruits]) They are the chosen few (very elect/man child) of the many called (elect/church).

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.​

There are the very elect, the elect and the righteous. He calls the very elect/man child for a purpose and that purpose is to teach His Word so that others, the not called, find His salvation.

 

[jiggyfly]

1Cr 15:22&23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[Stumpmaster]

1Cr 15:22&23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

John 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[jiggyfly]

John 5:28-29
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes but a greek word study will show that its not forever.

 

[Christina]

To belive only the Elect are saved is to deny the entire message of the Bible it means there is no free will
It also stands to reason that if only the predestined Elect are saved .. then everyone else is already damed to hell God never such any such thing He in fact wants us all to come to him, to love him.
However he is smart enough to know that love can not be forced it must be given freely. thus free will and the very reason we are all here. Above all he wants our love ..Love can not be predestined ... duty can but love can not, its given freely of the heart..
To chose wether to love and follow him or not ..
If this is all predestined then whats the point God could have just kept the good and destroyed the bad. He didnt out of love and thats what we are to return freely not out of predestination.

The Elect are the leaders the teachers We might think of the apostels as examples we needed them to lead the way so they were predestined ..it doesnt mean they were the only ones saved ...Yes God calls all his children each and everyone but whether one hears is his free choice .... All overcomers with the Elect will reign and rule with Christ ....

 

[Benoni]

Nice opinion not based on God's Word. There is no such thing as freewill or choice when it comes to salvation. If there is chapter and verse please.

To belive only the Elect are saved is to deny the entire message of the Bible it means there is no free will
It also stands to reason that if only the predestined Elect are saved .. then everyone else is already damed to hell God never such any such thing He in fact wants us all to come to him, to love him.
However he is smart enough to know that love can not be forced it must be given freely. thus free will and the very reason we are all here. Above all he wants our love ..Love can not be predestined ... duty can but love can not, its given freely of the heart..
To chose wether to love and follow him or not ..
If this is all predestined then whats the point God could have just kept the good and destroyed the bad. He didnt out of love and thats what we are to return freely not out of predestination.

The Elect are the leaders the teachers We might think of the apostels as examples we needed them to lead the way so they were predestined ..it doesnt mean they were the only ones saved ...Yes God calls all his children each and everyone but whether one hears is his free choice .... All overcomers with the Elect will reign and rule with Christ ....

 

[Christina]

Nice opinion not based on God's Word. There is no such thing as freewill or choice when it comes to salvation. If there is chapter and verse please.

It isnt just a nice opinon its knowing the plan of God knowing why we are here the spirit leads God teaches on many levels simply reading the surface text is only the begining give you verse sure I can do you have eyes and ears to understand them? ..
.
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted?

-note that Christ is speaking to His disciples here, not the world. So if his very chosen disiples could lose their saltness you dont think you can ....

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

-now we know that we are saved by grace and not works, but conduct of free will plays a part in our eternal destination.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
-notice it's not enough merely to know that he is Lord (or even to call him that), but we must "do" the will of God.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Notice it doesnt say they never loved him but that their love waxed cold ..This doesnt say God didnt chose them or he spit them out
no it says for what ever their own reasons were theor love waxed cold

What do you think you have to endure to make it to the end ? If you are predestined prechosen why to you think you should have to endure anything ..After all arent you already chosen ?.... No you must endure something first. These will be the overcomers

 

[Shelli]

It isnt just a nice opinon its knowing the plan of God knowing why we are here the spirit leads God teaches on many levels simply reading the surface text is only the begining give you verse sure I can do you have eyes and ears to understand them? ..
.
Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted?

-note that Christ is speaking to His disciples here, not the world. So if his very chosen disiples could lose their saltness you dont think you can ....

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

-now we know that we are saved by grace and not works, but conduct of free will plays a part in our eternal destination.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
-notice it's not enough merely to know that he is Lord (or even to call him that), but we must "do" the will of God.

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Notice it doesnt say they never loved him but that their love waxed cold ..This doesnt say God didnt chose them or he spit them out
no it says for what ever their own reasons were theor love waxed cold

What do you think you have to endure to make it to the end ? If you are predestined prechosen why to you think you should have to endure anything ..After all arent you already chosen ?.... No you must endure something first. These will be the overcomers

Note that in Matthew 5:13 Jesus was not talking to just His Disciples, but to "the people," as specified in 7:28. Note as well that Jesus mentions nothing there in His Sermon anything about the issue of predestination of the saved.

Please to not presume to explain God's Word until you have done more homework to find correctness. Stop saying what "we know" when in fact you don't "know."

 

[Christina]

Note that in Matthew 5:13 Jesus was not talking to just His Disciples, but to "the people," as specified in 7:28. Note as well that Jesus mentions nothing there in His Sermon anything about the issue of predestination of the saved.

Please to not presume to explain God's Word until you have done more homework to find correctness. Stop saying what "we know" when in fact you don't "know."

Awe but see as the body of Christ being baptised of the one spirit we do know You of course being of your father the devil
and not being of the body but a divider of the body would of course not understand this concept ..

again I say to everyone watch how this divider twists and tries to claim a knowledge of God to divide.
Gods scripture here is right but still this devil tries to find fault he can not stand for Gods word to speak for itself
He didnt say it so therefore he must find a fault ...Do you all see the the poison venom in the arrogance of this serpents tongue .....

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

"Those He Forknew, He also predestined to become sons of God"

Foreknew, definition is,, to know beforehand,,,, those who are nown before are predestined........

However,,,, I wonder why then,, If only certain people are predestined, then why "Preach the Gospel to every creature..."

Might as well be preaching to a wall if only a few have a chance to be saved. Also, I wonder too,, If only certain are saved while others are damned, then we wouldn't need to spread the Gospel.
God would reveal it to them.

Seems to me (and I'm not quoting all of the verses) That there may be some who are "chosen" from the getgo to believe, while others may have to be convinced.

"No one can come to me unless God draws them" (misquoted) Seems to me that, just because someone wants to believe, or just believes that they can't come to God on their own. God has to draw them to Him.

In otherwords, It's not that our faith or our belief is what saves and draws us to God. This means it's not our own works and desires that draw us and keep us. It's God, it's all God.

Satan believes, but is not drawn,,,,,,,

But, some people believe from birth, (what I percieve as chosen) others are athiest, deist, or agnostic for most of their lives,, then someone says something, or something happens, and they believe. But comming to the knowledge of an existing God is not enough for a "saving faith" God has to complete it.

Seems to me that we're not rulling out free will, however, we're rulling out our own will as a way of salvation.

 

[Benoni]

You give Satan far too much glory

Awe but see as the body of Christ being baptised of the one spirit we do know You of course being of your father the devil
and not being of the body but a divider of the body would of course not understand this concept ..

again I say to everyone watch how this divider twists and tries to claim a knowledge of God to divide.
Gods scripture here is right but still this devil tries to find fault he can not stand for Gods word to speak for itself
He didnt say it so therefore he must find a fault ...Do you all see the the poison venom in the arrogance of this serpents tongue .....

We have no freewill towards salvation, or sure we can choose small things, if you are rich enough you may be able to choose some pretty big things. We did not choose our parents, where we were born or color of skin and we cannot choose our own salvation.

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.".

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age ( note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

The whole thing reminds me of the verse which says, "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." When? When every heart is made willing! There is no connotation or undertone here of God forcing these to just mouth words. Instead there is the implication that it is done in a heartfelt, even worshipful attitude. They have been made willing. Many eternalists like to say that this verse simply means that God will force these knees to bow and these tongues to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Now these are the same people who say that because man has a "free will" God will not force him to accept Jesus Christ. But here they have God forcing men to worship Him . . . to the glory of God? My opinion is god does force us, us being his firstfruit; but that is because he made us so carnal; so we have no freewill or choice.

"Those He Forknew, He also predestined to become sons of God"

Foreknew, definition is,, to know beforehand,,,, those who are nown before are predestined........

However,,,, I wonder why then,, If only certain people are predestined, then why "Preach the Gospel to every creature..."

Might as well be preaching to a wall if only a few have a chance to be saved. Also, I wonder too,, If only certain are saved while others are damned, then we wouldn't need to spread the Gospel.
God would reveal it to them.

Seems to me (and I'm not quoting all of the verses) That there may be some who are "chosen" from the getgo to believe, while others may have to be convinced.

"No one can come to me unless God draws them" (misquoted) Seems to me that, just because someone wants to believe, or just believes that they can't come to God on their own. God has to draw them to Him.

In otherwords, It's not that our faith or our belief is what saves and draws us to God. This means it's not our own works and desires that draw us and keep us. It's God, it's all God.

Satan believes, but is not drawn,,,,,,,

But, some people believe from birth, (what I percieve as chosen) others are athiest, deist, or agnostic for most of their lives,, then someone says something, or something happens, and they believe. But comming to the knowledge of an existing God is not enough for a "saving faith" God has to complete it.

Seems to me that we're not rulling out free will, however, we're rulling out our own will as a way of salvation.

 

[Butch5]

To believe only the Elect are saved is to deny the entire message of the Bible it means there is no free will
It also stands to reason that if only the predestined Elect are saved .. then everyone else is already dammed to hell God never such any such thing He in fact wants us all to come to him, to love him.
However he is smart enough to know that love can not be forced it must be given freely. thus free will and the very reason we are all here. Above all he wants our love ..Love can not be predestined ... duty can but love can not, its given freely of the heart..
To chose whether to love and follow him or not ..
If this is all predestined then whats the point God could have just kept the good and destroyed the bad. He didn't out of love and that's what we are to return freely not out of predestination.

The Elect are the leaders the teachers We might think of the apostles as examples we needed them to lead the way so they were predestined ..it doesn't mean they were the only ones saved ...Yes God calls all his children each and everyone but whether one hears is his free choice .... All over comers with the Elect will reign and rule with Christ ....

Hi Christina,

I believe if we look at the Scriptures we will find that only the elect will be saved. However, we must define "the elect". It is not as the Calvinist says when he interprets John 6. John 6 refers to a specific time frame, namely Jesus earthly ministry. The Elect are all of those who choose to believe in Christ. The Calvinist also misinterprets Romans 8:29-30. He interprets this as God having determined before the foundation of the world who would be saved. The passage says no such thing, it does not even mention a time before the foundation of the world. That idea in imposed on the passage from Ephesians 1. If we look at the passage in context we see that those who are predestined are those of verse 28, those who love God. God had predetermined that anyone who loves Him will be conformed to the image of His Son. Verse 29 speaks of foreknowledge, many interpret this as God knowing in advance who he will choose. However, that is not what the grammar tells us. The Greek word is "Proginosko", it literally means "pro"= before and "ginosko"= know. It means to know before or before know. Paul used this same word in Acts 26,

Acts 26:3-5 ( KJV )
Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Surely we would not suggest that the Jews knew Paul from the foundation of the world. The word simply means to know before as the Jews knew Paul in the past. This is the same meaning it has in Romans 8:29. God had predetermined that those had known in the Past (past at the time Paul was writing), i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. would be conformed to the image of His Son. The word "proginosko" in this passage cannot mean that God arbitrarily chooses who He will save because Paul uses an example of history to provee his poiint. Notice verse 28.

Romans 8:28 ( KJV )
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The word translated here as "know" is not the Greek word "ginosko" it is "eido" and it means to see,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

εἴδω eidō Thayer Definition: 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d3a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see, i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

Paul's argument is that the Christians at Rome can see the evidence of what he is saying, they can see it by looking at their history. Paul says "we know (see) that all things work together for good to those who love God. They see it by looking at people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. This is what give them hope that God will do the same for them if they persevere. This understanding fits the context of the passage, the Calvinist interpretation does not. So, you are correct in stating that God does give man free will to love Him.

"Those He Forknew, He also predestined to become sons of God"

Foreknew, definition is,, to know beforehand,,,, those who are nown before are predestined........

However,,,, I wonder why then,, If only certain people are predestined, then why "Preach the Gospel to every creature..."

Might as well be preaching to a wall if only a few have a chance to be saved. Also, I wonder too,, If only certain are saved while others are damned, then we wouldn't need to spread the Gospel.
God would reveal it to them.

Seems to me (and I'm not quoting all of the verses) That there may be some who are "chosen" from the getgo to believe, while others may have to be convinced.

"No one can come to me unless God draws them" (misquoted) Seems to me that, just because someone wants to believe, or just believes that they can't come to God on their own. God has to draw them to Him.

In otherwords, It's not that our faith or our belief is what saves and draws us to God. This means it's not our own works and desires that draw us and keep us. It's God, it's all God.

Satan believes, but is not drawn,,,,,,,

But, some people believe from birth, (what I percieve as chosen) others are athiest, deist, or agnostic for most of their lives,, then someone says something, or something happens, and they believe. But comming to the knowledge of an existing God is not enough for a "saving faith" God has to complete it.

Seems to me that we're not rulling out free will, however, we're rulling out our own will as a way of salvation.

It is the definition of "proginosko" that is causing the confusion. Read the passage with the understand that Paul is speaking of those people that God knew in the past, people such as Abraham.

Here is a brief overview of my understanding of John 6 which I believe clearly explains why no one could come to Christ unless they were drawn.

I would like to explain John 6:37:45, it is not speaking of Calvinistic election.



John 6:37-45 ( KJV ) 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. When Jesus said this, salvation had not yet gone to the gentiles, Jesus himself said,


Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,


John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


No one today will see the Son. Now Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him.. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah,
For this to happen the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,

Jesus
Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Isaiah
Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Paul
Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul
Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,

John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And we see this happened,

Matthew 16:17 ( KJV ) 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast them out.
Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction could take place, after the cricifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel.which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.

 

[Shelli]

To belive only the Elect are saved is to deny the entire message of the Bible it means there is no free will
It also stands to reason that if only the predestined Elect are saved .. then everyone else is already damed to hell God never such any such thing He in fact wants us all to come to him, to love him.
However he is smart enough to know that love can not be forced it must be given freely. thus free will and the very reason we are all here. Above all he wants our love ..Love can not be predestined ... duty can but love can not, its given freely of the heart..
To chose wether to love and follow him or not ..
If this is all predestined then whats the point God could have just kept the good and destroyed the bad. He didnt out of love and thats what we are to return freely not out of predestination.

The Elect are the leaders the teachers We might think of the apostels as examples we needed them to lead the way so they were predestined ..it doesnt mean they were the only ones saved ...Yes God calls all his children each and everyone but whether one hears is his free choice .... All overcomers with the Elect will reign and rule with Christ ....

Precious Christina,

Can you share with us where in the Bible it says the "Elect are the teachers and leaders?" Thank you, and have a wonderful time with Jesus today.

 

[whirlwind]

Precious Christina,

Can you share with us where in the Bible it says the "Elect are the teachers and leaders?" Thank you, and have a wonderful time with Jesus today.

I'll be glad to share something with you Shelli. There are other places that answer your query but I choose the following, which speaks of the eternity....

In Ezekiel, in the chapters about the millennium and after He tells us where we will be...on what side of the river. In a vision an angel showed the future to Ezekiel. They came from the altar to the outer gate of the city, the holy city Jerusalem. Healing waters, waters to teach, are flowing from the altar of the Lamb.....


Ezekiel 47:3-5 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins. Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

The same river is mentioned in the chapter about eternity.....notice that "the nations" are there.​

Revelation 22:1-3 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve Him;​

47:6-7 And he said unto me, "Son of man, hast thou seen this?" Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river. Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

Our Saviour, the Word, is The Tree of Life. His elect, those He abides in, are His trees that teach His Word, His healing word. Notice that there is a division and that division cannot be crossed. Those on one side will not be of the holy city but...they ARE NOT destroyed. They will be healed...they will be TAUGHT.​

47:8-9 Then said he unto me, "These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live; and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither; for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

Waters are symbolic of not only the river of life but of people, the people that need healing....​

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.​

47:10-11 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

The fishers of course are those, like Peter, that fish for men, for the souls of men...the fish being "their kinds." The different nations? But, of those not all "shall be healed." They are past redemption.​

47:12 And by the river upon the bank therof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit therof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf therof for medicine."

For meat to learn of His Word. For medicine to heal souls. Again, the trees are His elect that are filled with His Spirit...filled with the "waters of the sanctuary."

They are His elect and they teach.​

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Hi Christina,

I believe if we look at the Scriptures we will find that only the elect will be saved. However, we must define "the elect". It is not as the Calvinist says when he interprets John 6. John 6 refers to a specific time frame, namely Jesus earthly ministry. The Elect are all of those who choose to believe in Christ. The Calvinist also misinterprets Romans 8:29-30. He interprets this as God having determined before the foundation of the world who would be saved. The passage says no such thing, it does not even mention a time before the foundation of the world. That idea in imposed on the passage from Ephesians 1. If we look at the passage in context we see that those who are predestined are those of verse 28, those who love God. God had predetermined that anyone who loves Him will be conformed to the image of His Son. Verse 29 speaks of foreknowledge, many interpret this as God knowing in advance who he will choose. However, that is not what the grammar tells us. The Greek word is "Proginosko", it literally means "pro"= before and "ginosko"= know. It means to know before or before know. Paul used this same word in Acts 26,

Acts 26:3-5 ( KJV )
Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Surely we would not suggest that the Jews knew Paul from the foundation of the world. The word simply means to know before as the Jews knew Paul in the past. This is the same meaning it has in Romans 8:29. God had predetermined that those had known in the Past (past at the time Paul was writing), i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. would be conformed to the image of His Son. The word "proginosko" in this passage cannot mean that God arbitrarily chooses who He will save because Paul uses an example of history to provee his poiint. Notice verse 28.

Romans 8:28 ( KJV )
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

The word translated here as "know" is not the Greek word "ginosko" it is "eido" and it means to see,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

εἴδω eidō Thayer Definition: 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d3a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see, i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

Paul's argument is that the Christians at Rome can see the evidence of what he is saying, they can see it by looking at their history. Paul says "we know (see) that all things work together for good to those who love God. They see it by looking at people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. This is what give them hope that God will do the same for them if they persevere. This understanding fits the context of the passage, the Calvinist interpretation does not. So, you are correct in stating that God does give man free will to love Him.



It is the definition of "proginosko" that is causing the confusion. Read the passage with the understand that Paul is speaking of those people that God knew in the past, people such as Abraham.

Here is a brief overview of my understanding of John 6 which I believe clearly explains why no one could come to Christ unless they were drawn.

I would like to explain John 6:37:45, it is not speaking of Calvinistic election.



John 6:37-45 ( KJV ) 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. When Jesus said this, salvation had not yet gone to the gentiles, Jesus himself said,


Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,


John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


No one today will see the Son. Now Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him.. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah,
For this to happen the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,

Jesus
Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Isaiah
Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Paul
Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul
Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.

1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,

John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And we see this happened,

Matthew 16:17 ( KJV ) 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast them out.
Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction could take place, after the cricifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,

John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel.which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38

Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.

That's absolutely brilliant! I never thought of it that way. But it does make more sense and seems to explain certain mysteries I had about the Jews salvation. Thanks!

 

[jiggyfly]

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense [judgment] came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act [the free gift came] to all men, resulting in justification of life.

1Cr 15:22&23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those [who are] Christ's at His coming.

1Cr 15:27&28 For "He has put all things under His feet." [fn] But when He says "all things are put under [Him]," [it is] evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Eph 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both [fn] which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.


Phl 2:9-11 Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:19-22 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.
This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

 

[Butch5]

That's absolutely brilliant! I never thought of it that way. But it does make more sense and seems to explain certain mysteries I had about the Jews salvation. Thanks!

Thanks, I wish it was mine. Youcan read more here.

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin10.html

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/Rom_8_28.pdf

http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/index.html