To believe only the Elect are saved is to deny the entire message of the Bible it means there is no free will
It also stands to reason that if only the predestined Elect are saved .. then everyone else is already dammed to hell God never such any such thing He in fact wants us all to come to him, to love him.
However he is smart enough to know that love can not be forced it must be given freely. thus free will and the very reason we are all here. Above all he wants our love ..Love can not be predestined ... duty can but love can not, its given freely of the heart..
To chose whether to love and follow him or not ..
If this is all predestined then whats the point God could have just kept the good and destroyed the bad. He didn't out of love and that's what we are to return freely not out of predestination.
The Elect are the leaders the teachers We might think of the apostles as examples we needed them to lead the way so they were predestined ..it doesn't mean they were the only ones saved ...Yes God calls all his children each and everyone but whether one hears is his free choice .... All over comers with the Elect will reign and rule with Christ ....
Hi Christina,
I believe if we look at the Scriptures we will find that only the elect will be saved. However, we must define "the elect". It is not as the Calvinist says when he interprets John 6. John 6 refers to a specific time frame, namely Jesus earthly ministry. The Elect are all of those who choose to believe in Christ. The Calvinist also misinterprets Romans 8:29-30. He interprets this as God having determined before the foundation of the world who would be saved. The passage says no such thing, it does not even mention a time before the foundation of the world. That idea in imposed on the passage from Ephesians 1. If we look at the passage in context we see that those who are predestined are those of verse 28, those who love God. God had predetermined that anyone who loves Him will be conformed to the image of His Son. Verse 29 speaks of foreknowledge, many interpret this as God knowing in advance who he will choose. However, that is not what the grammar tells us. The Greek word is "Proginosko", it literally means "pro"= before and "ginosko"= know. It means to know before or before know. Paul used this same word in Acts 26,
Acts 26:3-5 ( KJV )
Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Surely we would not suggest that the Jews knew Paul from the foundation of the world. The word simply means to know before as the Jews knew Paul in the past. This is the same meaning it has in Romans 8:29. God had predetermined that those had known in the Past (past at the time Paul was writing), i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. would be conformed to the image of His Son. The word "proginosko" in this passage cannot mean that God arbitrarily chooses who He will save because Paul uses an example of history to provee his poiint. Notice verse 28.
Romans 8:28 ( KJV )
And we
know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
The word translated here as "know" is not the Greek word "ginosko" it is "eido" and it means to see,
Thayer’s Greek Definitions
εἴδω eidō Thayer Definition: 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d3a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see, i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
Paul's argument is that the Christians at Rome can see the evidence of what he is saying, they can see it by looking at their history. Paul says "we know (see) that all things work together for good to those who love God. They see it by looking at people like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. This is what give them hope that God will do the same for them if they persevere. This understanding fits the context of the passage, the Calvinist interpretation does not. So, you are correct in stating that God does give man free will to love Him.
"Those He Forknew, He also predestined to become sons of God"
Foreknew, definition is,, to know beforehand,,,, those who are nown before are predestined........
However,,,, I wonder why then,, If only certain people are predestined, then why "Preach the Gospel to every creature..."
Might as well be preaching to a wall if only a few have a chance to be saved. Also, I wonder too,, If only certain are saved while others are damned, then we wouldn't need to spread the Gospel.
God would reveal it to them.
Seems to me (and I'm not quoting all of the verses) That there may be some who are "chosen" from the getgo to believe, while others may have to be convinced.
"No one can come to me unless God draws them" (misquoted) Seems to me that, just because someone wants to believe, or just believes that they can't come to God on their own. God has to draw them to Him.
In otherwords, It's not that our faith or our belief is what saves and draws us to God. This means it's not our own works and desires that draw us and keep us. It's God, it's all God.
Satan believes, but is not drawn,,,,,,,
But, some people believe from birth, (what I percieve as chosen) others are athiest, deist, or agnostic for most of their lives,, then someone says something, or something happens, and they believe. But comming to the knowledge of an existing God is not enough for a "saving faith" God has to complete it.
Seems to me that we're not rulling out free will, however, we're rulling out our own will as a way of salvation.
It is the definition of "proginosko" that is causing the confusion. Read the passage with the understand that Paul is speaking of those people that God knew in the past, people such as Abraham.
Here is a brief overview of my understanding of John 6 which I believe clearly explains why no one could come to Christ unless they were drawn.
I would like to explain John 6:37:45, it is not speaking of Calvinistic election.
John 6:37-45 ( KJV ) 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
First let's set the scene, God was setting the scene for the crucifiction, Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Jews. When Jesus said this, salvation had not yet gone to the gentiles, Jesus himself said,
Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV ) 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
So these verses only concern the Jews of Jesus day, also notice what Jesus said in verse 40,
John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No one today will see the Son. Now Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him.. God was setting up the crucifiction and for that to take place the Jews would have to reject the Messiah,
For this to happen the Jews would have to reject the Messiah, so God blinded Israel,
Jesus
Mark 4:11-12 ( KJV ) 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Isaiah
Isaiah 6:9-10 ( KJV ) 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Paul
Romans 11:25 ( KJV ) 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Paul
Romans 11:8 ( KJV ) 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Now had they understood, they would not have crucified the Lord.
1 Corinthians 2:8 ( KJV ) 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
So since Israel was blinded NO ONE could come to Christ unless they were drawn by the Father, this is shown is verse 45,
John 6:45 ( KJV ) 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
And we see this happened,
Matthew 16:17 ( KJV ) 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
So prior to the crucifiction all those who were drawn by the father come to Christ and he will in no way cast them out.
Now as I said earlier this all took place so that the crucifiction could take place, after the cricifiction the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles, which is shown by Jesus statement in John 12,
John 12:32 ( KJV ) 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So we see that after the crucifiction the gospel has gone out to ALL men, now everyone has the opportunity to receive the Gospel.which is evidenced by Acts 2:36-38
Acts 2:36-38 ( KJV ) 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
These same people who just a little while ago were crying out for Christ to be crucified were now cut to the heart and asked Peter what they needed to do to be saved.
