Are you a subject to a King?

[RichardBurger]

The promise to Israel (the Jews) was, and is, that they will have a King, A King has subjec ts that he rules over.

Does the grace church have a King or are those in it adopted children of God and are co-heirs with Jesus?

Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Colossians 1:18
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
NKJV

 

[veteran]

If a Christian is under no king, then they are not a true Christian. Christ Jesus is our Lord and King, forever. And when He returns He is going to rule with a rod of iron. He's not coming meek as the Lamb slain this next time. Those who hate the idea of a king are the rebellious children of darkness.

 

[RichardBurger]

If a Christian is under no king, then they are not a true Christian. Christ Jesus is our Lord and King, forever. And when He returns He is going to rule with a rod of iron. He's not coming meek as the Lamb slain this next time. Those who hate the idea of a king are the rebellious children of darkness.

So I take it that you are not a joint heir with Christ.

Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I am a King but I still have Rulers to answer to.

 

[RichardBurger]

I am a King but I still have Rulers to answer to.

I answer to my Father in heaven. He is my Father and I am His son "in Christ."

If a Christian is under no king, then they are not a true Christian. Christ Jesus is our Lord and King, forever. And when He returns He is going to rule with a rod of iron. He's not coming meek as the Lamb slain this next time. Those who hate the idea of a king are the rebellious children of darkness.

What does the scripture say??

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I answer to my Father in heaven. He is my Father and I am His son "in Christ."

Got that right.

 

[veteran]

So I take it that you are not a joint heir with Christ.

Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Yes, I'm a joint-heir with Christ, IF I continue to remain faithful to Him to the end. I will also have a crown, and reign with Him.

But will I be The KING as He is? No, and you will not be either. Nor will there be a rebellion against Him a second time, like when Satan coveted God's Throne and Place in wanting to be GOD.

 

[RichardBurger]

Yes, I'm a joint-heir with Christ, IF I continue to remain faithful to Him to the end. I will also have a crown, and reign with Him.

But will I be The KING as He is? No, and you will not be either. Nor will there be a rebellion against Him a second time, like when Satan coveted God's Throne and Place in wanting to be GOD.

A very religious answer; if I continue. What must you do to continue?

Is it keeping your belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the finished work of God (Jesus) on the cross?

Religious people say it is keeping up good works and in doing so dimish the work of God (Jesus) on the cross. To them salvation is in what they do and not in what God has already done. So which are you saying a person has to continue in?

Is it in God's work on the cross or your works of doing good? One is based on law keeping and the other on God's power shown on the cross. I will continue my work of placing my faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross and will not let anyone tell me it isn't enough. I will be faithful to Jesus' work on the cross in which I have been saved and became a child of God.

 

[veteran]

A very religious answer; if I continue. What must you do to continue?

Is it keeping your belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the finished work of God (Jesus) on the cross?

Religious people say it is keeping up good works and in doing so dimish the work of God (Jesus) on the cross. To them salvation is in what they do and not in what God has already done. So which are you saying a person has to continue in?

Is it in God's work on the cross or your works of doing good? One is based on law keeping and the other on God's power shown on the cross. I will continue my work of placing my faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross and will not let anyone tell me it isn't enough. I will be faithful to Jesus' work on the cross in which I have been saved and became a child of God.

You would do well to keep in mind the importance of doing works meet for repentance too. You were not one of the malefactors crucified with our Lord Jesus that believed on Him, but didn't have time to prove his Faith through good works.

 

[Groundzero]

Richard, how about you answer this verse:



1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

How can we be NOT under a king?! If Jesus is the King of kings, that means NO ONE is equal with him! Answer it!

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard, how about you answer this verse:



1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

How can we be NOT under a king?! If Jesus is the King of kings, that means NO ONE is equal with him! Answer it!

No! You answer the scritures I posted. How can we be a child of God and still have a king over us? Do you want a hint? When Jesus returns and sets up the promised kingdonm of the Jews He will be a king over them. You really need to see your verse 6:16 for what it says, which is "Which """in his times""" he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. Surely you can see that this is in reference to the set up kingdom for the Jews. But He is our brother "in Christ." The scriptures say so.
Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

 

[BibleScribe]

Rulers are appointed by GOD. And if one parses what a "king" is or isn't, then they miss the authority which GOD has ordained. But if one thinks that just because he/she is a Christian, that there is no other authority, then I'd suggest paying your taxes to the church and see where that gets you.

Ref. Romans 13:1-6



BibleScribe

 

[Templar81]

I don't see why I can't be a Christian and a subject of Queen Elizabeth II, after all you guys all recognise Obama as a ruler don't you even if you don't like him?

 

[Groundzero]

No! You answer the scritures I posted. How can we be a child of God and still have a king over us? Do you want a hint? When Jesus returns and sets up the promised kingdonm of the Jews He will be a king over them. You really need to see your verse 6:16 for what it says, which is "Which """in his times""" he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. Surely you can see that this is in reference to the set up kingdom for the Jews. But He is our brother "in Christ." The scriptures say so.
Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Fine. I'll answer your Scripture. Heir doesn't mean that you get everything! Just because you inherit something doesn't mean you actually get everything that person had! We have the Holy Spirit inside us that makes us the children of God, and therefore, we will inherit the kingdom of God. Joint-heirs with Christ perhaps will be in better light if we look at these other Scriptures as well! Jesus Christ is the“First-born among many brethren” (Rom_8:29), and as “Heir of all things” (Heb_1:2). Just because we are joint-heirs through adoption doesn't mean we are on the same level. Sure he is our brother in that he was flesh, but where does it say in Scripture that he is our equal!? Nowhere. Jesus Christ is superior to us, because inside him is God! There was no individually-thinking spirit like us, the Spirit inside him was the Father of Eternity! Never will we be equal to Jesus!


Your explanation reeks. How can one be the King of kings and the Lord of lords if it's only over one nation?! That's just a nice excuse. You seem to forget that the Lamb who alone prevailed to open the seal in Revelations is Jesus, and he has KING of kings and Lord of lords written on him there as well! I guess that perhaps that is just over the Jews!? Get real!


Once again I ask, how may one be King of kings and Lord of lords, unless he is the only One? This question alone should silence your 'doctrine' as these verses (Rev_17:14, 1Ti_6:15, Rev_19:16) are totally incompatible with what you are teaching, and your explanation for them is, what can I say, pitiful?

If your doctrine cannot line up with all the Scriptures and teachings of the Bible, there are two alternatives:


1. YOUR DOCTRINE is WRONG


2. THE BIBLE is WRONG (in that case, God help us!)

 

[veteran]

No! You answer the scritures I posted. How can we be a child of God and still have a king over us? Do you want a hint? When Jesus returns and sets up the promised kingdonm of the Jews He will be a king over them. You really need to see your verse 6:16 for what it says, which is "Which """in his times""" he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. Surely you can see that this is in reference to the set up kingdom for the Jews. But He is our brother "in Christ." The scriptures say so.
Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

That kind of interpretation of those Scriptures borders on Gnosticism. There's a HUGE difference in the concept of us being "sons of God" vs. The Only Begotten Son of God, and joint-heirs with Christ vs. trying to be equal to Christ Jesus The KING.

2nd century Gnosticism tried to teach that we 'each' have the potential to become our 'own' Christ. They even believed Jesus of Nazareth was but a man no different at all than us, that He was not God, and that He simply 'attuned' to a force like The Christ Spirit in order to become Christ, and that we each can do it too!!

The way that we become 'joint heirs' with Christ is by His ordaining and choosing us to reign with Him, not to mean being equal to Him, but simply being given responsibilities in His future Kingdom. The angels that rebelled which appeared before God's throne with Satan in the Book of Job were called "sons of God" too, because that title is associated with God created children in the Heavenly realm. Christ said in the resurrection we will be as the angels of God in Heaven, which is why we are now also called "sons of God", pointing to the future Heavenly manifestation of Christ's Kingdom. It has nothing to do with some idea of a literal co-equality with Christ Jesus. It has to do with our future personal relationship with our Lord Jesus in His Kingdom.

This WHY Christ's Title is King of kings and Lord of lords. The translators were right in capitalizing Christ's Role in that title as "King" being over "kings" (lower case).

The spirit of confusion is obviously very active with some today, for Christ as our King is a matter within Scripture that is very plain.

 

[RichardBurger]

Fine. I'll answer your Scripture. Heir doesn't mean that you get everything! Just because you inherit something doesn't mean you actually get everything that person had! We have the Holy Spirit inside us that makes us the children of God, and therefore, we will inherit the kingdom of God. Joint-heirs with Christ perhaps will be in better light if we look at these other Scriptures as well! Jesus Christ is the“First-born among many brethren” (Rom_8:29), and as “Heir of all things” (Heb_1:2). Just because we are joint-heirs through adoption doesn't mean we are on the same level. Sure he is our brother in that he was flesh, but where does it say in Scripture that he is our equal!? Nowhere. Jesus Christ is superior to us, because inside him is God! There was no individually-thinking spirit like us, the Spirit inside him was the Father of Eternity! Never will we be equal to Jesus!


Your explanation reeks. How can one be the King of kings and the Lord of lords if it's only over one nation?! That's just a nice excuse. You seem to forget that the Lamb who alone prevailed to open the seal in Revelations is Jesus, and he has KING of kings and Lord of lords written on him there as well! I guess that perhaps that is just over the Jews!? Get real!


Once again I ask, how may one be King of kings and Lord of lords, unless he is the only One? This question alone should silence your 'doctrine' as these verses (Rev_17:14, 1Ti_6:15, Rev_19:16) are totally incompatible with what you are teaching, and your explanation for them is, what can I say, pitiful?

If your doctrine cannot line up with all the Scriptures and teachings of the Bible, there are two alternatives:


1. YOUR DOCTRINE is WRONG


2. THE BIBLE is WRONG (in that case, God help us!)

Since you are adament that I am wrong and you say all the things you did about waht I believe then there is not any reason to reply to you. However, you posted "Jesus Christ is the“First-born among many brethren” In my opinion "brethern" indicates brothers, not subjects.

That kind of interpretation of those Scriptures borders on Gnosticism. There's a HUGE difference in the concept of us being "sons of God" vs. The Only Begotten Son of God, and joint-heirs with Christ vs. trying to be equal to Christ Jesus The KING.

2nd century Gnosticism tried to teach that we 'each' have the potential to become our 'own' Christ. They even believed Jesus of Nazareth was but a man no different at all than us, that He was not God, and that He simply 'attuned' to a force like The Christ Spirit in order to become Christ, and that we each can do it too!!

The way that we become 'joint heirs' with Christ is by His ordaining and choosing us to reign with Him, not to mean being equal to Him, but simply being given responsibilities in His future Kingdom. The angels that rebelled which appeared before God's throne with Satan in the Book of Job were called "sons of God" too, because that title is associated with God created children in the Heavenly realm. Christ said in the resurrection we will be as the angels of God in Heaven, which is why we are now also called "sons of God", pointing to the future Heavenly manifestation of Christ's Kingdom. It has nothing to do with some idea of a literal co-equality with Christ Jesus. It has to do with our future personal relationship with our Lord Jesus in His Kingdom.

This WHY Christ's Title is King of kings and Lord of lords. The translators were right in capitalizing Christ's Role in that title as "King" being over "kings" (lower case).

The spirit of confusion is obviously very active with some today, for Christ as our King is a matter within Scripture that is very plain.

I did not """interpretate""" anything. I posted what the scriptures said.

Christ is the King of the Jews and will reign on this earth over the 12 tribes of Israel. The scriptures do not tell those under grace that Christ will rule over them. It says they are joint heirs with Christ.

Just because I said that """"according to the scriptures"""" we are brothers of Jesus Christ you want to say I am trying to be equal to Jesus. For your ingformation I am not tying to make myself anything. The scriptures tell me who I am.

 

[Groundzero]

Since you are adament that I am wrong and you say all the things you did about waht I believe then there is not any reason to reply to you. However, you posted "Jesus Christ is the“First-born among many brethren” In my opinion "brethern" indicates brothers, not subjects.



I did not """interpretate""" anything. I posted what the scriptures said.

Christ is the King of the Jews and will reign on this earth over the 12 tribes of Israel. The scriptures do not tell those under grace that Christ will rule over them. It says they are joint heirs with Christ.

Just because I said that """"according to the scriptures"""" we are brothers of Jesus Christ you want to say I am trying to be equal to Jesus. For your ingformation I am not tying to make myself anything. The scriptures tell me who I am.

Of course I am adamant you are wrong! Your doctrine is blatantly denied in Scripture! As to brethren, Jesus Christ is our brother in regards to his humanity! But as to his deity, he is our Creator! Of course, you probably won't accept this explanation, but will choose to ignore it. So be it. Your doctrine still won't stand because it does not have the undivided strength of the Scripture behind it! It therefore is WRONG!



There is ONE Lord! (Eph. 4:4) That Lord is Jesus! (1Co_8:6), and that Lord is ALMIGHTY! Where is the equality between Jesus and us?! We cannot all be almighty, there can only be ONE All Mighty! Rev_16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.


There is A KING of kings. (1Ti_6:15 ) There is no King equal to him nor above him! Guess what that King's name is? Jesus!


Jesus created us. We cannot be equal to the Creator, it is confusion!!! Joh_1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


Your doctrine might line up with SOME verses, but not ALL! If you have an illogical mind, your doctrine is perfect, but I don't think you do!!!!


You said that you are not trying to make yourself equal with Jesus. True, but what you have stated, by saying we don't have a king over us, is saying just that! If we don't have any king over us, then we are either on the same status with Jesus, or he is lowered to our level! God forbid! Jesus is not just a king, He is THE KING of kings and he is the ONE LORD of lords! Glory to his name!

 

[RichardBurger]

Of course I am adamant you are wrong! Your doctrine is blatantly denied in Scripture! As to brethren, Jesus Christ is our brother in regards to his humanity! But as to his deity, he is our Creator! Of course, you probably won't accept this explanation, but will choose to ignore it. So be it. Your doctrine still won't stand because it does not have the undivided strength of the Scripture behind it! It therefore is WRONG!



There is ONE Lord! (Eph. 4:4) That Lord is Jesus! (1Co_8:6), and that Lord is ALMIGHTY! Where is the equality between Jesus and us?! We cannot all be almighty, there can only be ONE All Mighty! Rev_16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.


There is A KING of kings. (1Ti_6:15 ) There is no King equal to him nor above him! Guess what that King's name is? Jesus!


Jesus created us. We cannot be equal to the Creator, it is confusion!!! Joh_1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


Your doctrine might line up with SOME verses, but not ALL! If you have an illogical mind, your doctrine is perfect, but I don't think you do!!!!


You said that you are not trying to make yourself equal with Jesus. True, but what you have stated, by saying we don't have a king over us, is saying just that! If we don't have any king over us, then we are either on the same status with Jesus, or he is lowered to our level! God forbid! Jesus is not just a king, He is THE KING of kings and he is the ONE LORD of lords! Glory to his name!

I have never said I am equal to God or Jesus. That is in your mind only because you don't like what I wrote. I quoted scripture that said we are co-heirs with Christ and you, in your religious zeal, don't like it at all. Well the scriptures are still there in your Bible.

Again, according to the scriptures Jesus is our "High Priest." Doesn't sound like a king does it?

According to Paul we are parts of His (Jesus') body, He is the head and we are the parts that make up His body.

Our relationship with Jesus is not as subjects of a king. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and those under grace are adopted "in Christ" sons of God. As sons we call God our Father. But you like the word king better. Okay then, He is your king.

Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

 

[RichardBurger]

You would do well to keep in mind the importance of doing works meet for repentance too. You were not one of the malefactors crucified with our Lord Jesus that believed on Him, but didn't have time to prove his Faith through good works.

Straight out of the Book of James. A book that was written to the Jews who were under the Law of Moses. For your information I am not a Jew. Nor is the Law of Moses (works) in effect under grace.

So you are saying we must do works "meet" for repentance. --- As I see it those "in Christ" have already repented when they acknowledge that they are hopelessly lost in their sinful flesh and need Jesus' shed blood to cleanse them. And they also know that situation never ends until death of the flesh. But the self-righteous do not really see any need to repent. After all aren't they being transformed into sinless flesh?

 

[Groundzero]

I have never said I am equal to God or Jesus. That is in your mind only because you don't like what I wrote. I quoted scripture that said we are co-heirs with Christ and you, in your religious zeal, don't like it at all. Well the scriptures are still there in your Bible.

Again, according to the scriptures Jesus is our "High Priest." Doesn't sound like a king does it?

Our relationship with Jesus is not as subjects of a king. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and those under grace are adopted "in Christ" sons of God. As sons we call God our Father. But you like the word king better. Okay then, He is your king.

Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV

Ok, I back away from this conversation. You didn't answer any of those three points I put forward, you refuse to accept the fact that your doctrine is blatantly contradicted again and again, and you won't even accept explanations, even though they line up perfectly with Scripture! Your quip about the High Priest does not hinder anything. The reason why God came to earth in the flesh was to intercede for a human race doomed to hell! Jesus Christ must be our high priest, because he alone is sinless! You haven't answered the fact that he is ALSO the CREATOR, THE KING OF KINGS, THE LORD OF LORDS, and the ALL MIGHTY!



There is a day coming where EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS, that JESUS is LORD! That includes you, whether you like it or not, you will find out that Jesus is ruler over you.



Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.




Oh, and guess what? Yep, the Scriptures are still there in my Bible, and they point to Jesus. They proclaim him as the one who is coming back as the King of kings!