Are you a subject to a King?

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veteran

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Christ is King.

Not those people reigning over Europe. These people are not like Christ, they are of this world... I am not judging them. But they are not the Lord's authority. The Lord's authority on this earth is in his son Christ Jesus. His power and life is manifested through those who follow him. They will reign with Christ!

His kingdom is NOT of this world.

Yes, you ARE judging them, whether you admit it or not. You're judging them by the propaganda lies initiated by the "workers of iniquity" against the royal families of Europe, because they literally hate them, since God established them. If you well understood your Bible history, you'd understand what I'm talking about. Don't just believe what your pastors and ministers say about this from your local Church. Most of them are trained by the seminaries which have been infiltrated.

And since God is Who established them upon thrones, you argue with God regarding their right to rule over His people in Jesus Christ (including the believing Gentile).

A challenge for your Bible study brother; understand Gen.49:10 and 2 Samuel 7 as written. And then Ezekiel 17 & 21. God promised there would exist one of David's seed upon the throne to all generations, until Christ returns to take His Throne here on earth.
 

Prentis

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Yes, you ARE judging them, whether you admit it or not. You're judging them by the propaganda lies initiated by the "workers of iniquity" against the royal families of Europe, because they literally hate them, since God established them. If you well understood your Bible history, you'd understand what I'm talking about. Don't just believe what your pastors and ministers say about this from your local Church. Most of them are trained by the seminaries which have been infiltrated.

Actually, I am not taught by ministers and pastors that come from seminaries.

And since God is Who established them upon thrones, you argue with God regarding their right to rule over His people in Jesus Christ (including the believing Gentile).

Oh don't get me wrong; Im not saying we should take them off the throne. God has set them their. God also allows the devil to be the 'Prince of this world'. The fact God set them there doesn't make them Godly. But they don't rule with Christ. Some of them are not even Christian by confession and the rest aren't Christian by walk.

A challenge for your Bible study brother; understand Gen.49:10 and 2 Samuel 7 as written. And then Ezekiel 17 & 21. God promised there would exist one of David's seed upon the throne to all generations, until Christ returns to take His Throne here on earth.

Christ has risen to the throne of the Kingdom. The kingdom and the power is his. He is ruling right now, we just need that Kingdom he is ruling on to come into our lives.
 

veteran

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Actually, I am not taught by ministers and pastors that come from seminaries.

I know you're not a prophet, nor is understanding in God's Word a 'private' matter. Based on what you said previously already reveals to me you haven't yet understood about the idea of Divine rule that God set up per His Word. Allow me to show you what I'm talking about...

You said:
"I am not judging them. But they are not the Lord's authority. The Lord's authority on this earth is in his son Christ Jesus. His power and life is manifested through those who follow him."

Even though the kings are still under Christ's Authority, He still gave them authority on earth to rule over His people, even when those kings get a bit haughty. God's people have never had a perfect flesh king ruling on a throne over them on earth; if it were otherwise, we wouldn't need Christ Jesus as our KING.

God's power through His Son is manifested through the kings and queens He has setup over His people. That's why the one on the throne in England is also the earthly head of the Church in the land. (I would like to see the Queen of England use more of her God-given authority today, but God bless her, everybody needs a rest when they reach old age. Yet king David still did not fail to teach his son Solomon about righteousness in preparing to sit upon his throne.)

Oh don't get me wrong; Im not saying we should take them off the throne. God has set them their. God also allows the devil to be the 'Prince of this world'. The fact God set them there doesn't make them Godly. But they don't rule with Christ. Some of them are not even Christian by confession and the rest aren't Christian by walk

God is in control even over this world. He has not given alll... kingdoms on this earth for Satan to rule. Satan likes to think it's all his, but it ain't. You claim that the kings and queens over God's people don't rule with Christ. You don't know them enough to be able to make that claim. The main reason you'd probably make that kind of claim is from your listening to Christ's enemies who hate the idea of kings He sets upon earth.
 

RichardBurger

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Richard, your thinking is totally askew. Why don't you explain some of the verses that have been posted? You can't! Because your doctrine doesn't line up with them! For the sake of correctness, don't just take one Scripture and sit on it! Take the whole Word of God! Only then will you have no contradictions!

I see you wish to set yourself up as being the final authority on doctrine. Your saying my doctrine doesn't line up is just your opinion, and only means it does not line up with what you believe. Everything I post I post the scriptures that support it.

You accuse me of doing what you do, and that is hypocritical. You say I am to believe the word of God, like you do, and yet you will not believe that the book of James is written only to the Jews as it says it is. You re-write it to be to the Gentiles churches too so it fits into your doctrine. That means that you re-write the word of God.

Paul said the gospel he preached was hidden in God and revealed to him by Jesus. Paul also said that he was the FIRST to be saved under grace as a pateran for those that would be saved under the gospel given to him by Jesus. --- But you don't accept what he wrote because it does not fit in your doctrine.

I study the scriptures from a dispensational view in that God has dealt with mankind in different ways in different ages. That is certainly a fact in the scriptures but you just can't see it.

There is no way under the sun that I will go back to a man blended and harmonized gospel that has God saying what Man wants Him to say.
 

Prentis

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Yeah. His power really is manifested in those queens and kings of Europe. They are like... Like... Paul, and Peter, and John, and James.

Really?

God's people are to be like Jesus. They are to be the least of all. We are NOT of this world, of it's authorities and powers. That is not to say we don't submit ourselves to them in the way that is right. If these are God's great men, the gospel is powerless. Look at the evil going on in those countries.

Paul was the least of all, rejected by all. John spent much of the end of his live in prison. Peter was crucified upside down. Stephen was stoned.

The life that is availalbe in Christ Jesus is not about rule and reign in this life, dear brother. It's about becoming like Christ. He died that we might have life. And now we are to give our life that others may have his life.

Let the world take care of the world and let the dead burry the dead, but let us follow Christ! :)
 

Groundzero

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I see you wish to set yourself up as being the final authority on doctrine. Your saying my doctrine doesn't line up is just your opinion, and only means it does not line up with what you believe. Everything I post I post the scriptures that support it.

You accuse me of doing what you do, and that is hypocritical. You say I am to believe the word of God, like you do, and yet you will not believe that the book of James is written only to the Jews as it says it is. You re-write it to be to the Gentiles churches too so it fits into your doctrine. That means that you re-write the word of God.

Paul said the gospel he preached was hidden in God and revealed to him by Jesus. Paul also said that he was the FIRST to be saved under grace as a pateran for those that would be saved under the gospel given to him by Jesus. --- But you don't accept what he wrote because it does not fit in your doctrine.

I study the scriptures from a dispensational view in that God has dealt with mankind in different ways in different ages. That is certainly a fact in the scriptures but you just can't see it.

There is no way under the sun that I will go back to a man blended and harmonized gospel that has God saying what Man wants Him to say.

No comment.

Sure, the gospel Paul preached was revealed to him by Jesus, but it was NOT a different gospel to the one which Jesus told his disciples to preach, and it was NOT a different gospel to the one which Peter and the rest of the apostles preached!

In case you are wondering, there was a stage where I would have accepted the Trinity. I no longer do, because it doesn't matter how many people tell me it is a fact, I can't find any conclusive back-up in Scripture. The only doctrine I stand on is that which has effective back-up with Scripture.

Guess what? I believe in dispensations as well! But hello, as far as I am aware, the dispensation of grace did NOT start with Paul, it started when Jesus gave up the ghost and the VEIL of the Temple was TORN in half from TOP to bottom, signifying that no longer did man have to go through a high priest to find forgiveness of sins!

I know that holding me together right now is God, and he is my Father. But he isn't just my Father. He is also my king, and if I don't obey him, I will be rewarded accordingly.

Jesus: the King of kings and the Lord of lords, the Almighty God.
 

RichardBurger

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No comment.

Sure, the gospel Paul preached was revealed to him by Jesus, but it was NOT a different gospel to the one which Jesus told his disciples to preach, and it was NOT a different gospel to the one which Peter and the rest of the apostles preached!

In case you are wondering, there was a stage where I would have accepted the Trinity. I no longer do, because it doesn't matter how many people tell me it is a fact, I can't find any conclusive back-up in Scripture. The only doctrine I stand on is that which has effective back-up with Scripture.

Guess what? I believe in dispensations as well! But hello, as far as I am aware, the dispensation of grace did NOT start with Paul, it started when Jesus gave up the ghost and the VEIL of the Temple was TORN in half from TOP to bottom, signifying that no longer did man have to go through a high priest to find forgiveness of sins!

I know that holding me together right now is God, and he is my Father. But he isn't just my Father. He is also my king, and if I don't obey him, I will be rewarded accordingly.

Jesus: the King of kings and the Lord of lords, the Almighty God.

A lot of words that prove nothing. I have asked for anyone to show me where in the scriptures Jesus and the 12 rescinded the Law of Moses and no one has because it isn't in the scriptures. I have asked for someone to show me scriptures where Jesus and the 12 ever said we are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and no one has been able to do it because it isn't there.

Peter never said anything good about the cross in the book of Acts. He only taught the Jews that they had killed their Messiah and that they should accept Him as their Messiah and king. Some did, but not enought to bring Jesus back to setup the promised kingdom for the Jews (The Kingdom at Hand gospel).

If Jesus and the 12 preached the same gospel of grace that Paul did, then Paul's gospel wasn't given to him by Jesus on the road to Damascus, and it wasn't hidden in God and revealed to him, and he was not the first to be saved under it, then Paul did not write the truth. If you don't accept the fact that the gospel given to Paul by Jesus was hidden in God then you don't believe the word of God.

A person can not be saved by a blended gospel of the kingdom at hand for the Jews who were under the law and the gospel of grace given to Paul for us in this age. It's trying to get to heaven by believing a gospel written by man.
 

veteran

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Yeah. His power really is manifested in those queens and kings of Europe. They are like... Like... Paul, and Peter, and John, and James.

Really?

God's people are to be like Jesus. They are to be the least of all. We are NOT of this world, of it's authorities and powers. That is not to say we don't submit ourselves to them in the way that is right. If these are God's great men, the gospel is powerless. Look at the evil going on in those countries.

Paul was the least of all, rejected by all. John spent much of the end of his live in prison. Peter was crucified upside down. Stephen was stoned.

The life that is availalbe in Christ Jesus is not about rule and reign in this life, dear brother. It's about becoming like Christ. He died that we might have life. And now we are to give our life that others may have his life.

Let the world take care of the world and let the dead burry the dead, but let us follow Christ! :)

It's not about us deciding to be or not to be under the authority of rulers God sets up in power over us (see Romans 13). That's God's decision alone. Nor does this conflict with believing on Jesus Christ and following Him regarding the kings and queens God has setup over His Church (like in England).

God promised David there would never fail a man of Israel to sit upon his earthly throne. Many instead think God ended David's throne on earth during the days of Jeremiah the prophet. The Genesis 49:10 prophecy reveals David's earthly throne was to continue on earth unto all generations until Christ Jesus returns.

If you really knew Bible history per God's Word, you would understand this. But you reveal you don't know about it, but a consolation is that there are many believers on Christ in the same boat with you on this matter, including a lot of ministers and pastors over Christ's Church today that don't know this.

Since God has ordained David's throne to exist forever, and it still does exist on this earth today (but not in Jerusalem), then it means we cannot go changing what God has ordained. We cannot go trying to make Christ's Church fit some hippie spiritual commune type of society disconnected from the affairs of man. Our LORD did not choose every believer on His Son to be an Apostle like those whom He first chose at His first coming.

Since the beginning of The Gospel being preached to the western nations with those nations becoming Christian nations, that has involved an ordained king or queen in the West God setup as 'Defender Of The Faith'. That Defender Of The Faith is one of the titles of whoever sits upon the throne in Britain by divine right. The KJV translators knew this, for they used that title for King James in their Letter to King James that was included in the first edition 1611 KJV Bible. God still rules in the affairs of men on this earth. Rebellion by those rulers is a matter between they and Him.

When our Lord Jesus rebuked the scribes, Pharisees and priests of Israel, He was not going against the authority He setup for their positions, which is why He commanded what He did in Matt.23. They will have their reward.
 

Prentis

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So you are saying that the scribes and Pharisees will be rewarded in eternity? They are indeed God's people?

Honestly, veteran, I don't understand what you're saying.

Jesus called them sons of the Devil.

These kings cannot rule forever if this world comes to an end. Christ is ruling already now in the kingdom of God, and his rule will last forever. :)

Blessings...
 

veteran

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So you are saying that the scribes and Pharisees will be rewarded in eternity? They are indeed God's people?

No, that's some idea in your head you've come up with all by yourself.


Honestly, veteran, I don't understand what you're saying.

Jesus called them sons of the Devil.

Where did Jesus call kings sons of the Devil? Is that how you think of the idea of kings?


These kings cannot rule forever if this world comes to an end. Christ is ruling already now in the kingdom of God, and his rule will last forever. :)

Blessings...

Christ is to inherit David's throne that is on earth. As of right now Christ is sitting on the right hand of The Father's Throne in Heaven, as written.


Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(KJV)

Matt 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
(KJV)
 

Prentis

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Just so you understand where I was coming from :)

I asked if you thought the Scribes and Pharisees would receive a reward in eternity because you said this:
"When our Lord Jesus rebuked the scribes, Pharisees and priests of Israel, He was not going against the authority He setup for their positions, which is why He commanded what He did in Matt.23. They will have their reward."

I didn't just bring it out of nowhere. :)

My subsequent comment was about the Pharisees, not the kings, as I was asking you about the Pharisees.

I don't believe in any sense that the kings and queens of this age are holding Christ's seat for him. Otherwise there would be no need of a new earth, Christ would get this one! But that's not what is happening, there will be a new heaven and new earth, and Christ will reign over the new earth. The kings and queens of this world are not Christian.
 

Groundzero

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Just so you understand where I was coming from :)

I asked if you thought the Scribes and Pharisees would receive a reward in eternity because you said this:
"When our Lord Jesus rebuked the scribes, Pharisees and priests of Israel, He was not going against the authority He setup for their positions, which is why He commanded what He did in Matt.23. They will have their reward."

I didn't just bring it out of nowhere. :)

My subsequent comment was about the Pharisees, not the kings, as I was asking you about the Pharisees.

I don't believe in any sense that the kings and queens of this age are holding Christ's seat for him. Otherwise there would be no need of a new earth, Christ would get this one! But that's not what is happening, there will be a new heaven and new earth, and Christ will reign over the new earth. The kings and queens of this world are not Christian.

Prentis, I think what Veteran is trying to say is that those rulers he was talking about, have DELEGATED authority. Saul was king over Israel, and even though David was anointed king and Saul was clearly not following God anymore, David refused to lift his hand against one who had been anointed by the Lord.
 

Prentis

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Prentis, I think what Veteran is trying to say is that those rulers he was talking about, have DELEGATED authority. Saul was king over Israel, and even though David was anointed king and Saul was clearly not following God anymore, David refused to lift his hand against one who had been anointed by the Lord.

Hmm... According to what I understood that isn't even the matter, Groundzero.

No, I am not saying we should lift our sword against them. I never proposed something like that, my point to start with was exactly that they are NOT the Lord's anointed.

Christians are not christian by title or by belief, but by living faith. We preach a powerless Gospel when our gospel is only based on a belief system, and not a changed life.
 

Groundzero

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Hmm... According to what I understood that isn't even the matter, Groundzero.

No, I am not saying we should lift our sword against them. I never proposed something like that, my point to start with was exactly that they are NOT the Lord's anointed.

Christians are not christian by title or by belief, but by living faith. We preach a powerless Gospel when our gospel is only based on a belief system, and not a changed life.

I am not going to get into it! I have very strong opinions about politics, and let's just say that not many people share them! lol.
 

veteran

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Just so you understand where I was coming from :)

I asked if you thought the Scribes and Pharisees would receive a reward in eternity because you said this:
"When our Lord Jesus rebuked the scribes, Pharisees and priests of Israel, He was not going against the authority He setup for their positions, which is why He commanded what He did in Matt.23. They will have their reward."

I meant 'their' reward in the negative sense, not the positive. Those represent the 'tares' that crept in among Judah at Jerusalem. In Matt.13 Christ said the tares will be cast into the fire. But can a 'tare' turn from evil and come to Christ Jesus? Yes. Christ's Salvation is open to all peoples born in the flesh.


My subsequent comment was about the Pharisees, not the kings, as I was asking you about the Pharisees.

I don't believe in any sense that the kings and queens of this age are holding Christ's seat for him. Otherwise there would be no need of a new earth, Christ would get this one! But that's not what is happening, there will be a new heaven and new earth, and Christ will reign over the new earth. The kings and queens of this world are not Christian.

I wouldn't put it that way about David's earthly throne, like it's being 'held' for Christ. But it is written that it would exist upon this earth UNTIL Christ comes to claim it.

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
(KJV)

The idea of that "sceptre" is about the royal rule God committed to the tribe of Judah, specifically through David (and sons of Zarah for those who know about that). A sceptre rod is what a king holds as a symbol of their authority from God. That verse declares that sceptre is not to leave the tribe of Judah UNTIL "Shiloh" comes. Shiloh is a symbolic title for our Lord Jesus there, for Jesus is to Whom the gathering of the people will be (the time marker for fulfillment of this).

That Gen.49:10 prophecy is for the last days, as Jacob had gathered his sons to him to reveal what would happen to them in the last days per Gen.49:1. It was not meant for the time of Christ's first coming, because it should be obvious He did not 'gather' Israel to Him at that time. It's meant for the time of Christ's second coming. Thus, the earthly throne of David is to literally exist upon this earth with one of Judah sitting upon it until Christ's second coming to inherit it and the gathering to Him happens.

Ezek 21:26-27
26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
(KJV)

That goes along with the riddle God gave specifically to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) in Ezek.17. It's about David's throne being removed from king of Zedekiah in Jeremiah's day, and the crown being moved to someone else, with a total of 3 overturns until He comes Whose right it is (our Lord Jesus Christ).


Pointing out this prophecy from God's Word about David's earthly throne is not a popular subject. The orthodox Jews especially hate this being brought up from God's Word. It's a fact, even though many doctrines of men go directly against it.

The house of Judah rebelled against God, so God sent the king of Babylon upon them, and destroyed the king of Judah Zedekiah and all his son heirs. God did not destroy Zedekiah's daughters though, as the prophet Jeremiah was their kinsman redeemer and he took them into his care where he went after the destruction of Jerusalem. That ended the throne of David in Jerusalem. Since then, there has been no one of the house of David to sit upon a throne in Jerusalem. As a result, many have supposed our Lord Jesus now sits upon David's throne in Heaven, but that idea is against the prophecy in the above Scripture and also like the Matt.19 & 25 Scripture I posted.

In Matt.21, with our Lord's parable of the husbandmen, He said His vineyard would be taken away from the unbelieving Jews and instead given to a nation that would bring forth its fruits. Many have interpreted that "nation" as ONLY a general pointer to His Salvation for all believers, His Church. However, it includes more for those who've been given to understand this prophecy per the OT prophets, which is also where our Lord Jesus was pulling that from.

Isa 5:7
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah His pleasant plant: and He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(KJV)

Do you think our Lord Jesus remembered He said that about the "house of Israel" back in that Isaiah 5 chapter when He was giving the husbandmen-vineyard parable? I have no doubt that He was talking about the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) as the "vineyard" in the Matt.21 parable. The "nation" it would be given to represents His chosen servants sent to be over it, and involved the western Christian nations.

This goes along with the prophecy in Gen.48 that Joseph's son Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations". A deeper study of Bible history reveals the western Christian nations fulfilled that prophecy as His vineyard, because it's about the people who accepted The Gospel of Jesus Christ, those who were given care of The Gospel, and that were sent as ambassadors of Christ to take that Gospel to the nations. Just so happens, kings and queens were established upon thrones in those early western Christian nations, including those of eastern Europe, and one of their specific duties was to guard and protect Christ's Church. This is why God would move King James to give His people an English Bible translation they could read. King James, just as Queen Elizabeth II in 1953, were anointed with oil and coronated upon the Stone of Scone which first appeared in ancient Ireland. All of Ireland's kings and Scotland's kings and England's were coronated upon that Pillar Stone.
 

Prentis

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Veteran, I don't see how what you're saying works with what the apostles say of the new covenant.

Things like this:
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

What makes Europe so different from other continents/countries? They walk according to the power of the flesh. Armies. Etc. They are not a 'light to this world in any special way. You look at them, it's not Christ that you see.

We cannot follow after the flesh, and we cannot follow after the patern of this world if we are to represent Christ.
 

veteran

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Veteran, I don't see how what you're saying works with what the apostles say of the new covenant.

Things like this:
Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


You're misunderstanding that verse. You did notice it is not defining Christ's enemies of "flesh and blood"? The principalitites, powers, and rulers of darkness are about Satan's heavenly host and their influence. Remember king David was a man after God's own heart, yet still, David was a sinner. None of the kings and queens God has sent to defend His Church and His people have been perfect like our Lord Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact, no flesh believer on Christ has either. And that working Apostle Paul mentions there is not just for the time of the New Covenant; it's been that way from the beginning of this present world.



For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

Nor does that verse prove anything against the kings and queens God has sent to be over His Church and people. It's simply a warning for us, and them, to be careful in trusting our flesh. Paul covered lessons about having a fleshy mind of this world vs. being guided by The Spirit. That's what that verse is about, as it applies to us all equally. It definitely is not saying to disregard the authorities God has setup on this earth over us, like what Paul showed in Romans 13.



What makes Europe so different from other continents/countries? They walk according to the power of the flesh. Armies. Etc. They are not a 'light to this world in any special way. You look at them, it's not Christ that you see.

We cannot follow after the flesh, and we cannot follow after the patern of this world if we are to represent Christ.

They have the same trials of the flesh that all of those in Christ do, and then more trials we cannot realize. Their authority comes from God Himself, and that's really who you're arguing against, because a standing army is something that God has ordained for this present world. Imagine if Hitler had not been stopped because God's people had no army to protect themselves? You'd probably be high-stepping it right now! Same goes for the emperor of Japan, and the Communists armies.

I realize today's public schools are failing miserably in reminding young people of those histories. Still no excuse.
 

Prentis

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Tell me this, are the queens and kings of this world walking according to the Spirit?

This is most likely my last question. If your answer be yes, my debating in this thread is of no purpose. If your answer be no, I will be able to explain you my point.