Are You For or Against The Death Penalty?

[junobet]

Death as punishment and death as murder are two entirely different things.

According to both Christ and Paul it's not for us to punish anybody. Christians are in the game of forgiveness and rehabilitation. Remember: "Vengeance is mine says the Lord ... "

 

[junobet]

Agreed but it should be proven that they're a hundred percent guilty first. And I guess people can repent as well.

Only God can know 100% whether somebody is guilty or not. It's human hybris to assume otherwise.

"The death penalty carries the inherent risk of executing an innocent person. Since 1973, more than 170 people who had been wrongly convicted and sentenced to death in the U.S. have been exonerated." (Innocence | Death Penalty Information Center.)

 

[April_Rose]

And,.. I'm done here.

 

[Cristo Rei]

I do believe that anybody who reads the OT should already know that God isn't opposed by the death penalty,.. but I wanted to know everybody's thoughts and opinions about it.

Ohh now here is a really serious question that divides peoples opinions, just look at the poll so far... Im surprised that u posted this a while ago now and that the thread didn't explode...

Im against the death penalty because man cannot be trusted to decide who lives or dies...

@April_Rose u might know how expensive lawyers are right? $500p/h, $1,500p/h, even more...
So what if somebody is wrongfully accused of something, u know it happens...
Then if that person can afford a legal council then he will get his justice and walk free...

But what happens if a person hasn't got a spare 50k lying around for a defense team??? U know what i mean
We get an innocent person being punished for something he didn't do...

I have other lines of reasoning as well but i will let this one sink in...
There is justice for those who can afford it. But for the majority that can't, its an automatic trip to your local correctional facility... Or death

 

[Ziggy]

What really is good to know, is that, we're not required to judge them.

So there's this guy, his name is Moses. He has a tent out in the middle of nowhere and thousands of people he has to listen to.
God says, Hey Moses when the people have a problem bring it to me and I'll tell you what to do. In the meantime, I'm gonna get comfy on my mercy seat inside the tent, while you watch the door.
So the people come and go, day and night, night and day.. and Moses listens, goes to the mercy seat where God is sitting, and God says Judge it this way or that.
Now one day Moses' father in law stops by with his wife and kids, and figures he'll give him a bit of advice.
He tells Moses. Hey Moses, this job is too heavy for you. Find yourself some guys that seem pretty fair and honest and set them up as judges to deal with the small stuff. You only have to bother God with the big stuff. Sound good?
Moses thinks, yeah, maybe your right.
So Moses goes and sets up all these judges, except their not God, and they don't have righteous judgement. They judge like men, because they are,
After awhile things aren't so pleasant in the camp so God just moves out and let's them deal with it.
Needless to say, things got a bit out of control. Everybody was stoning everybody..fights broke out, wars broke out, and they all got scatteresd to the wind.

Now Paul says it like this:
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So these people in Moses' camp. They didn't go to Moses and say, Hey, these Amorites over here, they are real bad guys. What are you going to do about it?
Moses tells them, God will take care of them, you worry about what's going on in the camp.
And if someone in the camp is not doing what they supposed to be doing, then let ole Satan deal with him.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So some think only the death penalty was in the OT but the truth is, Justice is Justice.
But because God is the one doing the judging of others, we don't have to really concern ourselves about them. God will have them sent to the gallows, or the chair, or maybe even sit in time out for awhile. That's what the world's judges are for. You do worldly crimes, you face worldly judges.
We need to look after each other on the inside. And if we see someone heading down the wrong road.. put up a stop sign, and get em turned round.
That's the christian thing to do..

HUGS

 

[Cristo Rei]

So my first argument says that justice only serves the rich.

Now... What are courts and jails for?
The original objective of the justice system and jails was to protect the members of society against a dangerous person...
The death sentence isn't required to do that, so then what is the objective of the death sentence? It appears to have no other benefit but to fulfill the innate desire for revenge. It comes from a place of anger, hate, pride and resentment.

If your aim is justice then justice is already served when a criminal is jailed...
If your aim is to punish the criminal then its a fail cos dying is the easy way out... Being locked up, prevented from seeing your loved ones, solitary confinement, steel bars and concrete cells... Man, now that is real torment, real punishment. Killing the criminal only punished his family...
So the thirst for revenge unduly punishes the innocent members of his family...

This is really one of those moral issues that divide us and the argument can often dissolve into making derogatory statements and personal attacks...
Interestingly conservative people support capital punishment whereas liberals mostly don't...
Thats why im neither and am able to be flexible without becoming entrenched in one side or the other...

 

[quietthinker]

Death as punishment and death as murder are two entirely different things.

really? ....I'd be interested to hear your explanation.

 

[WaterSong]

How do we kill people by law to show killing people illegally is immoral?

I'm against the DP. It costs much more to process someone under a sentence of death than it does to keep them in prison for life without parole.
Further, the DP is final. The innocent person sentenced to death is a murder victim if the sentence is carried out.
Whereas such a one has a chance to be exonerated if they're sentenced to live in prison until that time.
Meanwhile, those who are guilty of the most heinous crimes and sentenced to LwoP exist in the closest thing to earthly hell as possible. Murderers are always under stress in prison because everyone knows their crime. And they'll be tested and even assaulted depending on whom they preyed upon in order to be sentenced.
They'll have to fight to stay alive every single day. That's fair.

 

[Triumph1300]

The innocent person sentenced to death is a murder victim if the sentence is carried out.

That's true.
But what about the person who is GUILTY and what does the Bible say about that guilty person?

 

[WaterSong]

That's true.
But what about the person who is GUILTY and what does the Bible say about that guilty person?

As I said, the guilty live to spend their life living through a sentence of life without parole in the closest thing to hell on earth, prison.

 

[Triumph1300]

So some think only the death penalty was in the OT but the truth is, Justice is Justice.

Right.....I believe it's also in the New Testament.

 

[Triumph1300]

As I said, the guilty live to spend their life living through a sentence of life without parole in the closest thing to hell on earth, prison.

Right.
But that's not the point.
The point is "what does the Bible say".

 

[WaterSong]

Right.
But that's not the point.
The point is "what does the Bible say".

The death penalty put our savior on the cross.

And my observations are embraced by the point Jesus made against the DP. John 8

 

[Triumph1300]

Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law even to the keeping of the "least of these commandments" (Mat. 5:17-19). He blasted the Pharisees for giving their own ideas precedence over God's commands:

• "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

 

[Ziggy]

Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law even to the keeping of the "least of these commandments" (Mat. 5:17-19). He blasted the Pharisees for giving their own ideas precedence over God's commands:

• "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying... `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say..." Mat. 15:3-4

Everybody likes to rewrite history.. but you can't change what God said.
And Jesus is the Word of God. If he kept his Father's commandments, well...
I don't know why people are so opposed to law and order.
You see it on the streets and in the churches..
it's amazing..
HUGS

 

[Sabertooth]

According to both Christ and Paul it's not for us to punish anybody.

According to Paul,
"For [God's appointed authority*] is God’s minister to you for good.
But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain;
for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." Romans 13:4 NKJV

Personal vengeance remains wrong, but judicial vengeance is ordained by God.

Within our own legal system, I believe that the death penalty should only be applied if there is a higher standard of proof (like DNA found in the murdered victim, the act caught on video, etc.).

*In our society, that would be the police & legal system.

 

[junobet]

According to Paul,
"For [God's appointed authority*] is God’s minister to you for good.
But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain;
for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." Romans 13:4 NKJV

Personal vengeance remains wrong, but judicial vengeance is ordained by God.

Within our own legal system, I believe that the death penalty should only be applied if there is a higher standard of proof (like DNA found in the murdered victim, the act caught on video, etc.).

*In our society, that would be the police & legal system.

What Romans 13:1-7 tells us is that Paul was not a revolutionary who wanted to overthrow the government. When it comes down to it, in the US the governing authority is you, the people. It’s in your hand if your country and your judicial system are governed according to Christian virtues such as charity, mercy and forgiveness as summed up in Romans 13:8-10, or if you want to continue to hate your enemies and only love your friends as the even the heathens do.

 

[farouk]

What Romans 13:1-7 tells us is that Paul was not a revolutionary who wanted to overthrow the government. When it comes down to it, in the US the governing authority is you, the people. It’s in your hand if your country and your judicial system are governed according to Christian virtues such as charity, mercy and forgiveness as summed up in Romans 13:8-10, or if you want to continue to hate your enemies and only love your friends as the even the heathens do.

@junobet So what do you think of the death penalty as applied at the Nuremburg War Trials?

(You're in Germany, right?)

 

[junobet]

@junobet So what do you think of the death penalty as applied at the Nuremburg War Trials?

(You're in Germany, right?)

If it had been for me I would not even have executed Hitler, had he stood trial. All human beings are made in the image of God, even the ones whose souls have lost the way.

 

[farouk]

If it had been for me I would not even have executed Hitler, had he stood trial. All human beings are made in the image of God, even those whose souls have lost the way.

Thank-you anyway for your response.