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DrBubbaLove

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Can you provide at least one verse where an Old Testament prophet, Jesus, or any of the apostles appealed to "tradition" as the basis for doctrine or authority?
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
 

forgivenWretch

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Catholics and Orthodox Christians are the only true Christians. We are the only Churches who follow the teachings of Christ. God forgives us through men. Why do you have a problem with this. It is in the Bible.
Saying something is and proving it so are two completely different things, and so far you have done nothing but voice your personal assumptions, without any proof whatsoever.
 

biblicalthought

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Quote:Originally Posted by biblicalthought Can you provide at least one verse where an Old Testament prophet, Jesus, or any of the apostles appealed to "tradition" as the basis for doctrine or authority? 2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Perhaps you could answer why you believe that this verse answers the initial question asked. I ask because the Apostle Paul does not seem to be appealing to "tradition" as the basis for doctrine or authority.
 

DrBubbaLove

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Originally Posted by biblicalthought Can you provide at least one verse where an Old Testament prophet, Jesus, or any of the apostles appealed to "tradition" as the basis for doctrine or authority?
2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. Perhaps you could answer why you believe that this verse answers the initial question asked. I ask because the Apostle Paul does not seem to be appealing to "tradition" as the basis for doctrine or authority.What is Paul appealing to then? What is he asking Timothy to teach? It is not scripture.And what would the men who Timothy teaches these things to be apealing to when they defended the teaching of this to others? By whose authority would they be teaching these things to others?
 

His By Grace

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Ryan, I appreciate the good spirit with which you have handled yourself on this thread. I do believe you want to clear up any misconceptions people have about the Catholic church. I know that I have come to better understand the faith as I have read through some things. It really bothers me when folks on here post with such attacking tones and accuse others of things that I don't see to be true at all. Just because someone may have had a bad experience with the Catholic church doesn't mean all Catholics are bad people. It certainly doesn't mean that all Catholics are lost and going to hell. Why should we sit in judgement of our brothers and sisters in Christ when we haven't walked one day in their shoes? Chances are, had we been raised that way, we would cling to those very same "traditions" as we held on to Christ. Who is showing more of Christ in response? The person being rude or the person with the fruits of the Spirit-patience, love, kindness,etc.? Scripture tells us that love covers a multitude of sins. Our badge as a Christian is supposed to be love. It's the hardest thing to show; especially when disagreeing on an issue, but that is the person showing the most strength. biblical thoughts, I think Dr. B. is trying to say that Paul was telling Timothy to rely on the things he had heard about Paul-the testimony of his life/upbringing in tradition as a Pharisee/salvation on the Damascus Road, which was not a part of scripture in Timothy's day, as all of the New Testament was not yet written. I guess that's what you meant, Dr.B.L.
smile.gif
 

DrBubbaLove

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Isn't Paul's letter to Timothy Scripture?
Paul's letter certainly is considered so now and am sure Timothy thought the letter special. Obviously since we have the letter today, others thought it special too.But Paul did not ask Timothy to teach others what Paul wrote, so am not sure what your point is. He said remember the things you heard me say, pass it on to faithful men that will also pass it on. He cannot be talking only about the things in this letter.So as we do not have those things in a letter to eventually call scripture, what would these later faithful men that Timothy passed these things on to call it whent they referenced by whose authority they taught those things?
 

SealedEternal

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It is true that All Christians are Catholic. A "universal" Church cannot by definitions exclude Christians, otherwise it is not universal.
The word "church" in scripture is “ekklesia” comes from two Greek words: Ek means out and Kaleo means call, and this is the verb form. When we put the two together and write the noun form of it, it is Ekklesia and means called out ones. Therefore the "church refers only to the individuals who Christ has called out and not to any institution. The term has been deceptively translated and redefined by man made religious institutions that attempted to usurp Christ's authority as the head of His body, and to put people under the bondage of these false religious institutions.The "Universal church" was established by the Roman Emporers to unite the Roman empire in the fourth century by giving a "christian" veneer to the traditional pagan mystery religions. The Emperor Contantine took all of the pagan deities and renamed them as saints, and the pagan holy days gave Biblical titles. He was both a pagan and professing Christian his whole life, and was trying to create a unified hybrid of both. The pagan's never objected to changes in names, because their religions were always esoteric anyway, while the professing Christians agreed to continue in the pagan rituals because they now had been given a Christian veneer. Therefore a one world or "universal" so-called "church had been established which incorporated the two popular religions of the day, professing Christianity and paganism which was really Satanism.Anyone can go to the Vatican and the Old Cathedrals today and you'll find a plethora of statues of pagan god's who have been renamed as "saints" by the Roman religion.The statue of "Peter" who Catholics have kissed the toes off of at St Peter's Cathedral is the pagan god "Jupiter". The sun discs you see behind the heads of the so-called "saints" in all of the paintings and statues are an obvious giveaway of who they originally represented, which were the pantheon of pagan gods. Also the sun symbol and sign of baal on the architecture and vestments irrefutably proves my case. The large obelisk in St Peter's square is a phallic symbol which represents the "shaft of baal" who is also Nimrod or Osiris, and was brought from ancient Egypt. Just look in your Bible concordance about what God thinks of that filthy symbol.The sun god represented by paganism is meant to symbolize "Lucifer" whose name means "the light bearer" in Latin, and is the real "god" of the pagan Mystery religions. The symbols of Lucifer or baal are found throughout the so-called Universal Church to this day which is proof of its true origin. The real Church on the other hand is the "called out ones" of Jesus Christ and not the members of any religious institution.SealedEternal
 

DrBubbaLove

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Thanks SealedEternal,Appreciate that this is your view of the Church and the history of Christianity. Naturally, I do not share it. My comment you were responding to was directed at an alledged fellow Catholic who had made a false statement about Christians that are not united with the Church. Would be happy to post with you about your allegations, but this does not appear to be a thread started for that purpose. If you're really interested maybe we should start another thread.
 

biblicalthought

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Quote:Originally Posted by biblicalthought Isn't Paul's letter to Timothy Scripture? Paul's letter certainly is considered so now and am sure Timothy thought the letter special. Obviously since we have the letter today, others thought it special too.But Paul did not ask Timothy to teach others what Paul wrote, so am not sure what your point is. He said remember the things you heard me say, pass it on to faithful men that will also pass it on. He cannot be talking only about the things in this letter.So as we do not have those things in a letter to eventually call scripture, what would these later faithful men that Timothy passed these things on to call it whent they referenced by whose authority they taught those things?
Are you asserting that Paul was Timothy's authority? The initial question was whether or not you could provide a verse where "tradition" in the RC sense was ever appealed to as the basis of doctrine or authority.
 

DrBubbaLove

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Let me ask it another way.What would the men Timothy taught (and the men they taught..and so on) call the things which are not written in scripture that Paul told Timothy to teach them?
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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(forgivenWretch;35643)
This is the biggest bunch of bull I have ever heard. May God have mercy on your souls.John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.Amazing how so many people call God a liar! Must be Satan's pets!
My thoughts exactly forgivenwretch bull! Who do we think we are judging another faith? Right? Wrong? Indifferent? Well I am here to say that I have attended Catholic Mass and they are people just like us honest down to earth folks who are just trying to cope with a world gone mad! What do we think that just because some one elses beliefs are not of our own that they are wrong on their doctrines and theory. Human kind is in no position to judge any ones faith let alone say its wrong to believe this or that. One day we will all stand before the throne of Christ for our own judgement and then and only then can we say for certain we have been judged justly.
 

waynemlj

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Hi Letsgofishing, I have spent over 55 years in the Catholic Church, so I know it from the inside out. I stopped attending that denomination a dozen years ago because I could no longer endure their mixture of truth and falsehoods.Some thoughts for you about your Catholic denomination:(First I want to be careful to say that the Catholic Church worships God through His virgin-born Son, Jesus Christ, who they carefully teach was not born of a human father but of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus lived a sinless life in complete obedience to the Father, preach that He was the Messiah who died on the cross for the sins of all who would believe in Him, and that he was raised from the dead). That part is fine! That is all biblical teaching!However, because they have misinterpreted that Peter was made head of the church, they have had a long string of very human popes who have mixed in "The Traditions of Men" (dogmas) along with the truth, and the priests spend a lot of their pulpit time teaching those church dogmas.1) Mary was conceived without sin. No, she was not! She was born from a human father. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. Also read Romans 3;11-18 "None is righteous, no, not one, . . . " They preach a falsehood!2) Mary was ever virgin. In Matthew 1:20 God told Joseph in a dream, "Joseph, Son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit." Again in Matt. 1:24-25 ". . . he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.' Joseph and Mary afterward had 4 sons and several daughters. One of the brothers of Jesus is James who wrote the book of James. Mary ever virgin? Another lie.3) Mary was assumed into heaven (did not die). There is nothing in the Bible on that topic anywhere. Another lie!4) Part of the Mass prayers includes praying for the dead. Completely unbiblical!5) Catholics everywhere are taught to pray to Mary and the saints. The Bible tells us to pray to God alone. Another falsehood.6) The Catholic Church teaches that souls must spend some unspecified time in Purgatory to be purified from their sins in order to be readied for entrance into Heaven. That contradicts the complete, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ and His atonement for sinners through His death on the cross. (Hebrews 10:12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God." And (Heb. 10:14), "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Obviously, Christ's sacrifice is the complete atonement for all who believe in Him. There is no such thing as Purgatory (otherwise Christ's work on the cross is nullified)! This falsehood is abominable to God!There are many other errors included in the Mass prayers if you listen carefully and compare them with true Bible teaching. Jesus warned the Pharisees in Matt. 4-9, "For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' "You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:" 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' " That makes void the word of God!Ask your parish priest to answer to these things and see what he says. waynemlj
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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Does judging the Catholic religion help any? Is the faith your attending now all right and no wrong? Is it perfect? Is anyone perfect? No.
 

His By Grace

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Two is right. I don't disagree with you on all of your points about the Catholic church. These things bother me too, but what value does it bring to this site? You may be thinking that they aren't saved at all. Well, some aren't if they haven't trusted in Christ as their Savior by a profession of faith. This is all scriptural. Yes, I am bothered by the things that are non-scriptural that others cling to, but only if it will lead them to hell. That is the dividing difference. So, if you are Catholic, of Baptist, or Lutheran, or whatever, you need to look at the things the Bible says you need to do to be saved. If the church says something different, then that's where traditions of men will get you into trouble. The Word of God, His Bible, is always the final authority.
 

DrBubbaLove

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Ask your parish priest to answer to these things and see what he says. waynemlj
You have not asked a question or suggested one we could ask a Priest. You simply made claims about some of our beliefs (that they are un-biblical) and mis-characterized others. Understand you lived a long time in the Church, have only been Catholic a few years myself after a lifetime of Southern Baptist. None the less, some of the things you claim do not at all resemble what is taught or practiced by Catholics. So am not sure how to defend something or why I would ask a Priest something I know not to be true. Will admit that there are Catholics who are not very well grounded in their faith and do not appreciate or understand all the teachings. They certainly could not explain it to anyone else. But from my experience that is just as true in other places and is not unique to Catholics. Having taught ninth graders as a Catechist, can tell you that many do not have a clue because either their parents do not teach them and they are certainly not getting at public schools. When I did have a student that attended a Catholic school or where a parent took the time, those students could teach the class. Catholics do not have Sunday School. So if the parents do not make it a priority and the child does not go to a good Catholic school, then a very short one hour a week class for maybe nine months out of six years total is all the education the average Catholic child receives. And the teachers of those one hour weekly classes are volunteers from the local Parish (if the Parish is able to offer those classes at all). So the quality and value of that training varies greatly and certainly does not approach the volume of the typical Sunday School (Sunday and Wednesday nights) that many Protestants benefit from. Bottom line, it is very possible for many to be Catholic and have only a nonminal understanding of what that even means, let alone be able to explain doctrine.Saying a particular person believed something to be true because of their Church membership and demonstrating that their Church actually teaches it are not always the same thing.
 

Letsgofishing

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(waynemlj;36013)
Hi Letsgofishing, I have spent over 55 years in the Catholic Church, so I know it from the inside out. I stopped attending that denomination a dozen years ago because I could no longer endure their mixture of truth and falsehoods.Some thoughts for you about your Catholic denomination:(First I want to be careful to say that the Catholic Church worships God through His virgin-born Son, Jesus Christ, who they carefully teach was not born of a human father but of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus lived a sinless life in complete obedience to the Father, preach that He was the Messiah who died on the cross for the sins of all who would believe in Him, and that he was raised from the dead). That part is fine! That is all biblical teaching!However, because they have misinterpreted that Peter was made head of the church, they have had a long string of very human popes who have mixed in "The Traditions of Men" (dogmas) along with the truth, and the priests spend a lot of their pulpit time teaching those church dogmas.1) Mary was conceived without sin. No, she was not! She was born from a human father. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. Also read Romans 3;11-18 "None is righteous, no, not one, . . . " They preach a falsehood!2) Mary was ever virgin. In Matthew 1:20 God told Joseph in a dream, "Joseph, Son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit." Again in Matt. 1:24-25 ". . . he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.' Joseph and Mary afterward had 4 sons and several daughters. One of the brothers of Jesus is James who wrote the book of James. Mary ever virgin? Another lie.3) Mary was assumed into heaven (did not die). There is nothing in the Bible on that topic anywhere. Another lie!4) Part of the Mass prayers includes praying for the dead. Completely unbiblical!5) Catholics everywhere are taught to pray to Mary and the saints. The Bible tells us to pray to God alone. Another falsehood.6) The Catholic Church teaches that souls must spend some unspecified time in Purgatory to be purified from their sins in order to be readied for entrance into Heaven. That contradicts the complete, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ and His atonement for sinners through His death on the cross. (Hebrews 10:12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God." And (Heb. 10:14), "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Obviously, Christ's sacrifice is the complete atonement for all who believe in Him. There is no such thing as Purgatory (otherwise Christ's work on the cross is nullified)! This falsehood is abominable to God!There are many other errors included in the Mass prayers if you listen carefully and compare them with true Bible teaching. Jesus warned the Pharisees in Matt. 4-9, "For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' "You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:" 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' " That makes void the word of God!Ask your parish priest to answer to these things and see what he says. waynemlj
Hey I just want to make this clear, I am not preaching to you, I am not enforcing my believes upon you, AND I AM CERTAINLY NOT SAYING THAT MY BELIEFS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS!!! I am just trying to help you understand my believes which are so misunderstood1. Mary being born without sin*- I have actually never believed this but it does have some biblical proof. The first is in genesis 3:15 15I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."Now the catholic church believes "the woman" in this passage is Mary and for her and satan to have enmity Mary must be free from sin.The second Luke 1:2828And the angel came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [[endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women So Obviously Mary was set apart. The catholic church believes she was set apart from sin, because that is the only way she could gain that emnity 2. Was Mary a virgin- Brothers in arabic did not only mean blood siblings, but also cousins, uncles, close friends ect. Therefore when the bible says brother or sister it is not nessecarily mean siblings3. The assumption of Mary while not not seen in the bible had once been a belief of all christians before the reformation. Therefore it is supported by tradition. I don't believe this either, but I see it as a harmless belief.4. Prayers for the dead are completley biblical. Check out 2 Tim 1:16-1The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains; but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me-- the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day--and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus. Saint Paul in this passage is praying for his departed friend Onesiphorus. 5. You are completley right, we are only allowed to pray to God alone. Which is why we don't pray to the saints. We ask them to pray for us. which is completley biblical6. Please chech out this link to learn more about purgatory, its to complicated of a believe for me to describe here.http://www.christianityboard.com/purgatory-t5223.htmlThanks for the questions.
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(waynemlj;36013)
Hi Letsgofishing, I have spent over 55 years in the Catholic Church, so I know it from the inside out. I stopped attending that denomination a dozen years ago because I could no longer endure their mixture of truth and falsehoods.Some thoughts for you about your Catholic denomination:(First I want to be careful to say that the Catholic Church worships God through His virgin-born Son, Jesus Christ, who they carefully teach was not born of a human father but of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus lived a sinless life in complete obedience to the Father, preach that He was the Messiah who died on the cross for the sins of all who would believe in Him, and that he was raised from the dead). That part is fine! That is all biblical teaching!However, because they have misinterpreted that Peter was made head of the church, they have had a long string of very human popes who have mixed in "The Traditions of Men" (dogmas) along with the truth, and the priests spend a lot of their pulpit time teaching those church dogmas.1) Mary was conceived without sin. No, she was not! She was born from a human father. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. Also read Romans 3;11-18 "None is righteous, no, not one, . . . " They preach a falsehood!2) Mary was ever virgin. In Matthew 1:20 God told Joseph in a dream, "Joseph, Son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit." Again in Matt. 1:24-25 ". . . he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.' Joseph and Mary afterward had 4 sons and several daughters. One of the brothers of Jesus is James who wrote the book of James. Mary ever virgin? Another lie.3) Mary was assumed into heaven (did not die). There is nothing in the Bible on that topic anywhere. Another lie!4) Part of the Mass prayers includes praying for the dead. Completely unbiblical!5) Catholics everywhere are taught to pray to Mary and the saints. The Bible tells us to pray to God alone. Another falsehood.6) The Catholic Church teaches that souls must spend some unspecified time in Purgatory to be purified from their sins in order to be readied for entrance into Heaven. That contradicts the complete, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ and His atonement for sinners through His death on the cross. (Hebrews 10:12) But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God." And (Heb. 10:14), "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Obviously, Christ's sacrifice is the complete atonement for all who believe in Him. There is no such thing as Purgatory (otherwise Christ's work on the cross is nullified)! This falsehood is abominable to God!There are many other errors included in the Mass prayers if you listen carefully and compare them with true Bible teaching. Jesus warned the Pharisees in Matt. 4-9, "For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' "You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:" 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' " That makes void the word of God!Ask your parish priest to answer to these things and see what he says. waynemlj
Amen!(Two;36015)
Does judging the Catholic religion help any? Is the faith your attending now all right and no wrong? Is it perfect? Is anyone perfect? No.
No, but how can a person truly love one another if they don't give out Truth. So telling the Truth is not even close to be called "judging"(Letsgofishing;36034)
Hey I just want to make this clear, I am not preaching to you, I am not enforcing my believes upon you, AND I AM CERTAINLY NOT SAYING THAT MY BELIEFS ARE BETTER THAN YOURS!!! I am just trying to help you understand my believes which are so misunderstood1. Mary being born without sin*- I have actually never believed this but it does have some biblical proof. The first is in genesis 3:15 15I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."Now the catholic church believes "the woman" in this passage is Mary and for her and satan to have enmity Mary must be free from sin.The second Luke 1:2828And the angel came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [[endued with grace]! The Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women So Obviously Mary was set apart. The catholic church believes she was set apart from sin, because that is the only way she could gain that emnity 2. Was Mary a virgin- Brothers in arabic did not only mean blood siblings, but also cousins, uncles, close friends ect. Therefore when the bible says brother or sister it is not nessecarily mean siblings3. The assumption of Mary while not not seen in the bible had once been a belief of all christians before the reformation. Therefore it is supported by tradition. I don't believe this either, but I see it as a harmless belief.4. Prayers for the dead are completley biblical. Check out 2 Tim 1:16-1The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains; but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me and found me-- the Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord on that day--and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus. Saint Paul in this passage is praying for his departed friend Onesiphorus. 5. You are completley right, we are only allowed to pray to God alone. Which is why we don't pray to the saints. We ask them to pray for us. which is completley biblical6. Please chech out this link to learn more about purgatory, its to complicated of a believe for me to describe here.http://www.christianityboard.com/purgatory-t5223.htmlThanks for the questions.
The person of these words in Genesis 3:15 "her seed" is no way referring to Mary. It is referring to Eve. *sigh*JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

Jerusalem Junkie

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Still judging either way you look at it. Trying to find faults is judging anyway you look at it. What I want to know is what is it with the RCC? I suppose next thing the RCC will be the antichrist or will cause WWIII or something.
 

DrBubbaLove

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(thesuperjag;36039)
The person of these words in Genesis 3:15 "her seed" is no way referring to Mary. It is referring to Eve. *sigh*
Guess I missed the part in Genesis where Eve's offspring crushed Satan's head.
 
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