St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Sorry, not sure who you were referring to.
LOL
I don't even understand the joke and I still thought your post was funny.
At what age are we to condemn people of other religions to hell?
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I don't even understand the joke and I still thought your post was funny.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Of course. So, if we understand our accountability for our moral decisions outside of the Heaven-or-Hell decision (which makes people afraid and warps the hell out their thinking), the saner we'll be.
Which is a segue to what I was trying to get to...
Lambano
Well-Known Member
So, if the Born-Again are not part of the Sheep-and-Goat judgement, who are the Nations (Greek "ethnon", Hebrew "goyim")? The not "Born-Again" are all that's left.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Sure.
Free Will is not free of consequence.
It can take a while to learn this, and for some........ by the time they do, their life is ruined.
The cost of freedom is consequence.
Someone said..."if you are not prepared to do the time, then dont do the crime".
And the "time" can be, 20 or 30 yrs of misery in life, simply because of one dumb free will choice.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Being "born again" is based on the Cross.
ON the Cross, Jesus is being Judged for the sin of the world. or...."God hath made Jesus to be sin for us". ... "Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin".
John 3:16-17
Whose?
"the world"......that is all the people...everyone.
So.....If a person has received this forgiveness, then they are "saved".
God does not judge them later, after they die, because Jesus has already been judged for them, on the Cross on Earth.
On the Cross, Jesus said.."it is FiNISHED"........and what is finished ? The Judgment due a person for their sin, after they died.
Jesus took this for us on earth.
= THE CROSS of Christ.
This is why the born again meet God after they die, as FATHER, instead of eternal Judge.
There are some "judgments' in eternity, but there is no eternal punishment for someone who is born again, because Jesus has been punished already on the Cross, for our Sin.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well then rephrase it i the way you desire to mean it. I know what Gods wrath is biblically. If you are looking for something different, please tell me so.
Teh Lake of Fire is not Gods Wrath.
But for everyone who is not born again or is an unbeliever the Bible only says this:
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
So all theose people worshipping false gods you spoke of earlier- Gods wrath is upon them.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Here is a copy and paste of my question in post #59
'Isn't 'us' separated from God quite different to God separated from us? I guess that begs the question what is wrath, in particular, God's wrath?
Do you think the scripture might explain it?'
Paul explains God Wrath in Romans 1:18-31.....here you have the texts below with my highlighting and commentary.
Please read the text thoughtfully.
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is (present tense) being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.
_______________________________________________________________
God giving them over is Paul's explanation of God's Wrath. In other words, God stops striving with them and allows the consequences of their choices to bear its natural fruit. We see in vs 29 -31 what that fruit is.
God's Wrath is not an arbitrary punishment inflicted but rather the results of God no longer standing to prevent the consequences of the peoples deliberate choices.
....and so it will be at the end of the Age where the deliberate choice to distance oneself from the source of life will have the inevitable consequence, ie no life aka death.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
This is the story of humankind ending as a tragedy.
What was the point?
That God's glory would be manifest in unbridled fury against his own creation?
Will he take no responsibility for what He has created? Was that NOT a deliberate choice?
The sort of choice that you say should come with "inevitable consequence."
"God can do as he chooses", you might reply. But wouldn't that make Him a cosmic tyrant?
That's not the God that I know. I will defend his character against such madness.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I should add, mans deliberate sustained choice......just like Lucifer, a deliberate sustained choice......as in Jesus' accusers emphatic attitude of 'we will not have this man rule over us'.......to the point of killing their Creator.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We can paint the picture of God's "enemies" as black as we want, But sin is a singular thing.
I know that humans grade on a curve; not sure that God operates that way.
I keep coming back to what God expects from us concerning our enemies.
The sin of revenge clouds our thinking concerning this. IMHO
Jesus taught us that to love our enemies is godly behavior. See Matthew 5:43-48
Does God hold Himself to a lower standard than he holds us to?
If so, his ways cannot be higher than our ways. And we know that isn't true.
God's love is above and beyond anything imaginable, but...
I imagine that every enemy will be reconciled to God.
Lucifer may be the last in the long list, beginning with humankind
and ending with the authorities in the spiritual realm.
The last enemy being death.
How could there be eternal death after that?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
every enemy is reconciled but not every enemy wants reconciliation....some would rather die than live.....most would rather die than live.
'Wide is the road that leads to destruction and many travel on it.....narrow is the road that leads to life and few find it'...Jesus
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I do not believe us being separated is different from god being separated.
Yes Gods' wrath is being revealed here against those who suppress teh truth.
It is also present in all unbelievers!
John 3:36
King James Version
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.If you look at both carefully, there are important and strategic differences in how the wrath is present.
also these are not what the bible calls THE wrath which is Gods Judgment poured out in the 70th week of Daniel aka the tribulation.
And you are wrong that the unbeliever goes into non-existence, aka death.
Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Anyone can say they would "rather die than live." A gun to the head reveals the truth.
Apologies for such a grizzly example. But I think such boasting (rather die than live) is a lot of hot air.
And the wide and narrow roads cannot be in reference to our destination in the afterlife, unless...
God is playing a high-stakes game of hide-and-seek with our souls. "... few there be that find it..." ???
"Oh, you were so close. (sigh) Too bad. Now you will burn for eternity.
Better luck next time... Oh wait, there is no next time. Ha, ha, ha..."
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I think we start to condemn others to hell when we are 2 or 3. That seems to be when we start doing other wrong things.This is the best answer I've yet seen.
Much love!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Me neither, now that you mention it . . . But I've done other things . . .
Much love!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
An example; A&E thought and felt separated from God, they feared and hid. God on the other hand was proactive, he knew what the score was yet he went looking for them and provided them better clothes and promises....God was not separated from them.
Another example; Jesus, who lives in light and love and joy and the adoration of billions of heavenly beings divested himself of all this glory and condescended to have his backside wiped as a helpless infant; to be badgered all his life as to who his Father was; to be maligned and hated, abandoned and murdered because he showed humanity his Father in a way none of the Prophets did. He identified with flesh and blood .....and the kicker is, that for eternity....that needs to be put in our pipe and smoked so to speak. That puts 'sacrifice' in a whole different light. You can be assured he was not separated from us but that we separated him......yes, we are separated from God, not God from us.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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