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Atheist objections to evidence for God's existence

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by OzSpen, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Joseph,

    How can he tell 'Him' this when he doesn't accept He exists? That would be like speaking to the sky, knowing that no response was possible.

    Oz
     
  2. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    They believe in a young universe, young earth, humans created out of dust, and a global flood a few thousand years ago?
    See above.
     
  3. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Keep seeking.
    The testimony of others throughout the last few centuries, who once did not believe,

    was that they could see all around them was false, nothing to hope in, nothing to trust in, in family, religion, government, or anything....

    yet they had a hope, or a desire, that someone, somewhere, was real, and cared,

    and they went outside and looked up in the sky, and said "God, Creator? Are you there? I need help. I don't know if you are there, but I need help, and if you are there, I will do what you want, if you let me know... I don't know how to find you,

    so you will have to make yourself known .... no one else can help me.... so if you're there, I need you, ..... let me know...


    and , within a moment, or a week, a month, God opened their mind, as He did the disciples, and God let them know.... freely...
     
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  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Dude,

    Please provide the documentation from Kitchen and Kaiser Jr that that is what they believe.

    Oz
     
  5. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    If they are followers of Jesus, honoring God the Creator, as with all Ekklesia, that is what they believe 'by default'/ automatic. (willingly, by choice, free will, rejoicing in Christ Jesus, abiding in Him as His Word abides in them)
     
  6. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking you if that's what they believe. Is it?
     
  7. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    You go and check. You are being lazy at this point, not wanting to investigate the evidence.
     
  8. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    What? You cited those guys and as soon as I ask you a question about them you refuse to answer and instead reply this way? How is that at all helpful?
     
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  9. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    So I checked on Kitchen and found this review at creation.com: https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j20_2/j20_2_20-23.pdf

    Specific to the questions of young-earth creationism and the flood, the review says:

    "Regarding the Flood, Kitchen declines to comment on its extent..." and "It is clear though that Kitchen does not believe it altered the earth’s surface to any great extent given that he tries in vain to locate the missing rivers of Eden, the Gihon and Pishon. Indeed, he accepts the old-earth timescales of millions of years (p. 430)."

    I found that interesting, especially in light of how creation.com sees it: "This should not be surprising given that Kitchen is writing within the British evangelical context and tradition, the members of which have long given up biblical authority in matters of history in favour of longage compromises, with disastrous consequences."

    So according to that Christian website, Kitchen doesn't accept Biblical authority in matters of history.

    Your thoughts?
     
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  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Headache,

    I'm asking you to examine the OT and NT on reliability or unreliability of historical evidence. We use the same criteria as ancient historians. If these documents are demonstrated to be reliable, then you go to them to discover whatever subject you are pursuing.

    If they are not trustworthy, we should do what the Apostle Paul concluded:

    You claim: 'In the end everything is wibbly-wobbly. As the old testament seems to be first written down at king David’s reign, 500 years after the exodus. So, from a time perspective it's as accurate as homers works which also has a wiggle room of 500 years'.

    From where did you get those ideas? Your presuppositions?

    The Old Testament was written in various times of human history. 'The sacred scriptures of the Jewish faith, written at different times between about 1200 and 165 BC'.

    As for Homer's writings, he wrote two epics, The Iliad and The Odyssey. When Homer wrote these epics is difficult to articulate because 'part of the problem is that Homer lived before a chronological dating system was in place. The Olympic Games of classical Greece marked an epoch, with 776 BC as a starting point by which to measure out four-year periods for the event. In short, it is difficult to give someone a birth date when he was born before there was a calendar' (Biography.com: Homer). This scholarly estimates are he lived and wrote between c. 800 BC– c. 701 BC.

    So, your statement: 'From a time perspective it's as accurate as homers (sic) works which also have a wiggle room of 500 years'.

    It's time for you to get into accurate historical investigation of the OT and NT, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Oz
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    I'm asking for you to do the research on the reliability of OT and NT. I gave you Kenneth Kitchen's research as a starter and mentioned Walter Kaiser Jr.

    So far, you've not mentioned a word about reading these two sources. You could obtain them through your local library.
     
  12. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    Okay. Thanks for references.
     
  13. SelfInducedHeadache

    SelfInducedHeadache New Member

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    Yeah, I could have written it more clearly, but with wiggle room I've mean the time between the events happening and the writting down. Homer speaks of events that happenned 400 years earlier+his own unclear birthdate. So around 400-500years passed before the events were writen down. As for the old testament, I calculated for the exodus, because you quoted from it, which happend around 1400BC and was fully in the torah around 600BC, but there were also parts that were written down before, which I thought were around 1000BC, King Davids time. For Dates I used wikiped.

    Now for the study of the OT and the NT, it'll take some time, as I also want to study various other textes, like the vedas. As for their accuracy Justadude already said the it the best way:
    easters for everyone,
    SelfInducedHeadache
     
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  14. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    You know what makes me feel so sad for those who don't believe God exists. The fact they have all kinds of evidence around them, the physical universe including planet Earth that proves he does exists. Now you may listen to many scientists saying basically that the universe created itself or brought itself into being, but you know what those same scientists would say if you asked them if the Empire State Building built itself. They would say, of course not. So I would ask them which is more complex, the universe or the Empire State Building. I think most would agree that the universe is far more complex than any building. So why would I believe the universe brought itself into existence when a building any building can't bring itself into existence. Just as it takes someone of intelligence to bring a building any building into existence it would take someone of intelligence to bring the physical universe into existence. You can ignor the Bible all you want but what I said is basically what I have learned in God's word the Bible at Romans chapter 1 verses 18 thru 21.
     
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  15. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    If evolution is true, then we don't have any evidence that we actually exist, and are not just the figment of our own chaotic imagination brought about by sheer chance. A logical mind has to be designed that way by a designer. Without a designer, there is no such thing as logic. So someone without a logical mind wouldn't even know what the question is, let alone the answer to it.
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Barney,

    We know so much more about the universe, thanks to the advances in astronomy and space missions. Take a look at this evidence that I have placed in a lesson I'm preparing for Religious Instruction in State schools:

    Think of the second heaven and the majesty of God’s amazing work.
    'Mini-Me' Solar System
    [​IMG]

    This artist's conception shows the relative size of a hypothetical brown dwarf-planetary system compared to our own solar system. A brown dwarf is a cool or "failed" star, which lacks the mass to ignite and shine like our Sun. NASA's Spitzer Space Telescope set its infrared eyes on an extraordinarily low-mass brown dwarf called OTS 44 and found a swirling disk of planet-building dust. At only 15 times the mass of Jupiter, OTS 44 is the smallest known brown dwarf to host a planet-forming, or protoplanetary, disk.

    This image is located at: 'Mini-Me' Solar System

    Oz
     
  17. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Headache,

    You can't even write this sentence in clear and correct English: <<Yeah, I could have written it more clearly, but with wiggle room I've (sic) mean the time between the events happening and the writting (sic) down ????>>

    And you want me to believe your research after this kind of illogical sentence and your going to Wikipedia for evidence of the dates of the Exodus.

    I don't see you as a serious contender for honestly wanting answers from Scripture.

    Oz
     
  18. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    This is one of the reasons why I'm agnostic. The arguments theists make for the existence of gods are typically no better than, "That building is complex and designed, the universe is also complex, therefore it was also designed, therefore God".

    That's nothing more than the fallacy of composition.
     
  19. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    That's one of the weirdest anti-evolution arguments I've ever seen. If populations evolve, then there's no such thing as reality? o_O

    Surely you can do better than that.
     
  20. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you don't know, as an agnostic, whether there is such a thing as reality, then how do you know that the world you live in is actually real?
     
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