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Atheist objections to evidence for God's existence

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by OzSpen, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    First I'm not trying to prove that gods exist. I'm using scripture to show to people like you that using a buildings complexity in comparison to the complexity of the universe proves that The True God exists. Also with all that, I'm a agnostic mumbo and the fallacy of composition mumbo all that shows me is you can't answer the question reasonably. So I tell you what, you believe that buildings magically appeared into existence and so did the universe, and I will continue to believe that since buildings can't magically appear into existence but instead need intelligent beings to cause them to be in existence I will agree with scripture that the physical universe proves that a intelligent being exists since it takes an intelligent being to bring the physical universe into existence just as it requires intelligent beings to bring a building into existence. It's not a fallacy to compare the complexity of a building with the complexity of the universe and realize or know God exists. It's sound reasoning. Scientists in there research on the universe and life itself shows design everywhere. Where there is design everywhere like that people like you want me to believe that when such design is everywhere it's impossible that there's a designer. That's not going to happen. So my statement that I made that I'm so sad that people don't believe in God when there's evidence all around that prove he exists, stands.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
  2. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    dude,

    This is God's assessment of your logical fallacy of ridicule of God's existence:

    18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is for ever praised. Amen (Rom 1:18-25 NIV).​

    No matter how much you scoff at Christians for the evidence they give you from creation, they are doing what God instructed them to do.

    You will stand before God's judgment without excuse. The kinds of excuses you are giving us on this forum will not stand up when you face him. The Judge will judge you as guilty.
    upload_2020-4-13_8-39-16.jpeg
    Oz
     
  3. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    Whenever someone has to resort to solipsism to make their case, that's an immediate red flag to me that their case isn't very good.
     
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  4. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think quoting scripture would be compelling to a non-Christian?

    Except the argument is a logical fallacy.

    What question?

    So in addition to using logical fallacies to make your case you also use straw man arguments. That should tell you something.

    Yes it is. Your argument is:

    Buildings are complex;
    buildings are designed;
    the universe is complex;
    therefore the universe is designed;
    therefore God exists.

    That's a textbook example of the fallacy of composition.

    Just because you say so, right?
     
  5. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    Again, I don't understand why you think quoting the Bible would be meaningful to a non-Christian. If a Mormon quoted the Book of Mormon to you, would you find that persuasive? No? Now you know how I feel about quotes from the Bible.
     
  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    dude,

    I quote from the Bible because I'm quoting from an historical document that has been demonstrated to be trustworthy. I've given the documentation of such historical science above but you're not listening or taking notice. The Book of Mormon has not been demonstrated to be a reliable historical document.

    To understand the reliability of the Bible, it is exposed to the same tests as for any other historical document, including the historical validity of the writings of or about Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Homer and Emperor Nero.

    If I'm investigating the early history of Australia, I can apply the same historical criteria to the journals of Captain James Cook in 1770 and Manning Clark's 6 vols., A History of Australia.

    I demonstrate the Bible is a reliable document and then go to the Bible to discover what it says about Jesus' life on earth, the crucifixion and the resurrection.

    Oz
     
  7. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    dude,

    One minute after your last breath you'll wish you had taken my conversation with you seriously.

    Oz
     
  8. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    Except you didn't quote it on a matter of history, or even from the same book (OT) that we agreed contains some accurate history. So it seems your argument is, the OT contains some accurate history therefore the NT is accurate in spiritual matters. Do you see the problem there?

    Why can't the Mormons use the same faulty logic as you? Why can't they say their book extends from the OT, and since the OT contains some accurate history, therefore the Book of Mormon is accurate as well?

    Except you've not demonstrated anything. All you've done is claim it to be so.

    If a Muslim told you the same thing, would his threat affect you? No? Now you understand how I feel about your threat.
     
  9. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    You are ducking and weaving again - and inventing some of what I did not say.:rolleyes:
     
  10. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    If your point wasn't, because the OT contains some accurate history therefore the NT is accurate in spiritual matters, what was your point in quoting Romans to me?
     
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    What “evidence”?

    If you are going to bring up “first cause” or “irreducible complexity”, then those are not evidence, those are logical arguments. There are atheist “logical arguments” to counter them. In any case, logical arguments only indicate that something is POSSIBLE not that it is really true. So what evidence can you present?

    Show me the body of Jesus still alive and that would certainly prove the truth of his resurrection and go a long way towards PROVING his being God (since he would be 2000 years old). ;)

    [Note: I am not an atheist, but I play one on TV ... actually I am a former atheist, so I know how to play for the opposition and simply claiming that atheists refuse to “accept the evidence” is not honest.]
     
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  12. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Historians accept that three or more contemporary accounts are valid evidence for a historical person or event. In the gospels we have four eyewitness accounts, some of which atheist historians accept as being penned within a few years of the event.

    There are detailed accounts of investigations into the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, Lee Strobel's the Case for Christ, springs to mind. He talked to leading experts about it and as an atheist was forced by the evidence to reconsider his beliefs.

    The refusal of atheists to do the same, or to produced detailed reasonable explanations for the crucifixion can reasonable be put down to there unwillingness to examine the facts.
     
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  13. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone prove we are educated to live in a virtual reality?
     
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    When did the women go to the tomb?
    How many angels were there?
    (The eye witness accounts do not agree on the observable facts.)

    It is certainly convenient that the body that will live forever suddenly disappeared so nobody else can see for themselves this “evidence”.

    Clearly “something” happened and, just as clearly, the early martyrs believed what they said. However “something” also happened at the oracle a Delphi so “god” must be one of many. The question is the credibility of 2000 year old texts with a long history of copyist errors and the extraordinary claims of Christianity. I think atheists are perfectly reasonable to question the veracity of such a biased self-serving source.

    That is why we are saved by grace, through faith and that not of ourselves. The empirical evidence really stinks.
     
  15. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    If three witnesses are all that's needed to verify a claim of a supernatural event, then there are "verified claims" all over today's world! There are all sorts of stories of many people claiming to have witnessed miraculous events, like extended periods of meditation, levitation, healing....you name it.

    Of course the standard Christian apologetic response to those things is that the people can't be trusted and are either lying in service to their false religion, or are uneducated and delusional. It never occurs to the Christian that the same arguments could be applied to their own stories.
     
  16. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    "If three witnesses are all that's needed to verify a claim of a supernatural event, <-- The bible never even claims this nor speaks about "supernatural events" needing to be verified...

    ...then there are "verified claims" all over today's world! There are all sorts of stories of many people claiming to have witnessed miraculous events, like extended periods of meditation, levitation, healing....you name it."

    Oh you bet there are many things of this sort happening in this world. I can tell you this much though, much of it is not from the Spirit of God. There are other spirits out there you know and they love to play with humans, as puppets. Their job is to make us believe a lie...always a lie.
     
  17. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    The "three witnesses = verified" thing was from @Windmillcharge and that's why I applied it to other religious claims.

    I'm familiar with the framework whereby things that are consistent with Christianity are "from the Spirit of God" and things that aren't are "from other spirits". To be honest, that's always struck me as rather self-serving and just a bit lazy. Why not evaluate each thing on its own merits and go from there?
     
  18. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    "I'm familiar with the framework whereby things that are consistent with Christianity are "from the Spirit of God" and things that aren't are "from other spirits". To be honest, that's always struck me as rather self-serving and just a bit lazy. Why not evaluate each thing on its own merits and see where it leads?"

    Hi Justadude (do love that name, oh yes...and your outfit!) :D
    I've been in that world, Ouija boards, cards read, seers; almost went to Lily-dale once with friends, for fun. Glad I never did go...had a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach about it anyhow. The Ouija board? Did this for the first time when I was around 11 or 12 and all I can say about that night is that, I can not remember anything but a lingering bad taste in my mouth. So, the Spirit I respond to is only God's as, if it is not of God's then it is not good as all things of God's are good. JMO
    :)


     
  19. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    LOL..thanks! The pic in my avatar is Rodney Dangerfield from one of my favorite movies, Caddyshack.

    I've been there too. I've had friends, and friends of friends, who were really into those sorts of things. They ended up resenting me and eventually kicked me out of their friend group because I kept debunking their spirit-world stuff.

    The ouija board was one of the easiest to debunk. These guys swore that they were talking to spirits who would answer questions and predict things. I watched them do it a few times and then one night I had them switch seats around the board, put on blindfolds, and the guy writing down the letters and numbers had to do so without saying anything out loud.

    Guess what happened? Every time after that all they got was complete gibberish!

    They got soooooooo angry with me and all I could do was laugh. :D
     
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  20. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Ha, guess they couldn't even conjure up a spirit when cheating! Of course they got mad at you, you blew them out the water, hahaha!
    lol. Caddyshack, very funny movie! Lol.
     
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