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Atheist objections to evidence for God's existence

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by OzSpen, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. SelfInducedHeadache

    SelfInducedHeadache New Member

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    Hi, I've scanned most of this thread so far and found one point which, I think, hasn't been discussed yet. What does make your claims of the supernatural have other religions, cults or just simply believes don't? Most Christians in this thread assert their believe as correct and formulate their prove with help of the bible or other religious experiences. Now if the use of the supernatural is valid, then what makes the Norse gods, the Egyptian gods, the Greek gods, the Buddha, the Dalai Lama, all ancient myths, e.g. Epic of Gilgamesh, and modern myths, e.g. UFOs, invalid? You claim you know the truth and other to be ignorant, but the Christian idea rejects the all other ideas. Polytheism is more open.


    No matter how "great" and "true" your god is, it is your opinion that it is like this. NO amount of personal experience can overshadow other personal experience. In this thread I've could only scrape some usable proof for Christianity together and none of this proof could exclude other gods, demons who faked the entire monotheism in order to sabotage some real god, civilisations of higher technology and the simple possibility that were just here for no reason other than the universe is unravelling after it's laws.


    So please, reject or accept the concepts openly, but stop blasphemy hammer everything.


    sincerely,

    SelfInducedHeadache
     
  2. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    That's the problem with appealing to supernatural experiences. Someone else will inevitably come along and claim their own experiences that contradict yours, and there's no way to objectively tell who's right.

    It's an "anything goes" enterprise, which is why there have been countless beliefs about the supernatural throughout human history.
     
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  3. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Headache,

    You have some excellent points here. I'll pick up only a couple of them.

    1. I'd like you to compare the quality or dynamics of the Judeo-Christian miracles of creation, worldwide flood, and Daniel in the lions' den with those of the Greek gods, Buddha, Epic of Gilgamesh, and modern myths. There is a country mile of a difference between the biblical miracles and the others I mentioned. It's like comparing a Rolls Royce with a Model-T Ford.

    2. God demonstrated that He is LORD and the true God when he brought the Jewish people out of slavery in Egypt (remember the mighty miracles performed in front of Pharaoh and he wouldn't allow the Israelites to leave until the miracle of saving the first born sons of those who smeared blood over the door of the house (Exodus 11-12).

    3. God demonstrated that he is the one true God by parting the Red Sea (Ex 14), letting the Israelites through on dry ground and the destruction of Pharaoh and his army. This forever settled who God is.

    Exodus 14:9-18, 30-31 (NIV) states:
    This was a demonstration of the miraculous power of the Lord God Almighty. No contemporary myth, Norse god or Egyptian god has the power of the Judeo-Christian God. This was seen especially in the defeat of Pharaoh and the Egyptian army at the crossing of the Red Sea.

    Pharaoh & the gods of Egypt were not able to emulate the miracles of the one true God that allowed the Israelites to escape from Egyptian slavery.

    Ex 12:12 states: 'For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord'.

    So the Lord has already smashed the gods of Egypt and executed judgments on them. We have evidence that the miracles of the Lord God are superior to any other god.

    Oz
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
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  4. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    Just a play on words, but why does an atheist call himself or herself "a theist" when that individual doesn't believe in God. :D

    Just a bit of fun. :)
     
  5. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Just,

    There is one that supersedes them all and can be shown through historical science and that is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I have shown this in my articles:
    All 'supernatural experiences' can be investigated using the historical method. They do not have to be subjective experiences that have no way of objectively determining what is right.

    Oz
     
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  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Josho,

    Good to see you on the forum - another Aussie, Aussie, Aussie.

    My general experience with atheists and agnostics is their focus on the empirical method science of observation and repeatability.

    They are poor in understanding the criteria to use when doing historical investigation / historical science.

    Oz in Brissy
     
  7. SelfInducedHeadache

    SelfInducedHeadache New Member

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    I can't claim to know all religions, as I haven't had the time to study all the books, but I'll try to compare what I know.
    It must be pointed out that about 66 books were removed from the Christian canon, because of contradiction in the texts and believe. Other religions especially the older, whose believers were basically purged, were probably as complex and structured as the christianity. To bad most were murdered and broken, left for the coming generation to piece back together.

    I don't see what especially unique about mass murdering of the first born. It also doesn't prove the Christian god stronger than the Egyptian gods, just more willing to kill. The Egyptians also had an afterlife, so their physical death means nothing to their gods.

    This difference in power mostly stems from the fact that the idea of polytheism automatically divides the amount of power the gods have. But even so most religions do have moments of divine intervention, like when Zeus destroyed the Persian fleet twice or that the people of Pompeii were so lost, Vulcan had to interfere. Further comparing these cataclysmic powers would only end in nonsensical geek power scaling.

    Then there are all the moments were it seemed as the Christian god left his people, but most of this isexplained away by saying he allowed it for other reasons. This clause makes everything even more confusing :
    For example, the Azteks could only rule their kingdom through the power their god gave them, for offerings. Following this logic, the Azteks didn't lose because of the Christian god, but their own failure to appease their god, like the Babylonian exile the Jews suffered through their own degeneration. Or back to the inability of the Egyptians to emulate the wonders. Those magicians were just tricksters, but the Egyptian gods have already shown incredible wonders, the flood of the Nile, the immortality of the pharaoh. This one king, claiming to be pharaoh, just failed the gods in a similar way Solomon did to his god.

    by being lax enough to accept the bible, the same standarts allow every other religion to exist.


    SelfInducedHeadache
     
  8. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    So you are 50 years old and you see no evidence of God? A little sad.
    I have worked with them. Most want evidence. Think real hard and tell me where the best evidence will come from? You might be surprised.
     
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  9. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    You can call me dude. ;)

    I didn't find that material at all persuasive. To me, it amounted to little more than "it's true because the Bible says so and people believe it". One could apply your same arguments to the accounts of Mohammed ascending into heaven, or the Buddha mediating without food or water for years, or any number of written accounts of supernatural events.
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Headache,

    You don't have an open mind to honestly examine the evidence I provided. Your anti-Christian, pro-pagan presuppositions overwhelm your discussion.

    God performed miracles for the Israelites in Egypt that the Egyptian gods could not perform. Who was the one true God who did spectacular miracles before Pharaoh that the gods could not emulate?:confused:o_O

    Oz
     
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  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Dude,

    That is not how I presented the material. The truth is that the Old Testament and New Testament when subjected to the criteria of historical research come out with a golden shine.

    The reliability of the OT is seen in publications such as:
    Both of these professors, who were not novices and naive, concluded, using historical criteria, that the OT is a reliable set of documents.

    Evidence of the reliability of the OT came from a rather unusual source, the secular Huff Post:

    When I use biblical texts, I’m quoting from documents that are reliable and trustworthy, even on a purely historical basis. Take a read of this article from the secular, The Huffington Post, “2,500 Year Old Jewish Tablets Discovered in Iraq” (2015).

    [​IMG]
    (Image courtesy The Huffington Post Australia)

    What does this non-Christian source conclude about this discovery? “This discovery is a remarkable confirmation of the historical reliability of the Biblical text”.

    The Bible, both OT and NT, have been demonstrated to be trustworthy by historical criteria. I use those criteria and then go to these reliable documents to discover what they teach. My faith is not founded on faith that is a leap into the darkness. Its foundation is based on facts - historical facts.

    I have demonstrated how historical science does this with NT evidence for Jesus' resurrection in my article: Evidence for the afterlife.

    When you get serious with examining the OT and NT evidence, instead of your giving me some throw-away lines, then we have a basis for a rational discussion.

    Oz
     
  12. Paul Christensen

    Paul Christensen Well-Known Member

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    The basic reason, which they would avoid disclosing, is that they want to avoid any moral responsibility to God. They want to do anything they want, and it is convenient for them to say that God does not exist. Actually their atheism is a religion, because their belief system incorporates a belief that there is no God. They actually want to be their own gods.

    If we use the 1950s style of evangelism which supposes a Judeo-Christian world view and belief of the Scriptures we will be scuppered very quickly, because they will suck us into the vortex of endless debates, going round and round in circles until we end up chasing our own tails.

    The best way is to chip away at the God-given conscience,and show them that they are not good, and if there is a God He will be unhappy with them, and if there is a judgment they will be found guilty and end up in God's eternal prison without parole.

    Sharing the gospel with them requires a lot of patience and a very non judgmental attitude. The trouble is that a zealous Christian worker will attack their atheism and this will be trying to hit at the building instead of the foundation. Accusing them of avoiding moral responsibility will not help either.

    It is better to ask him whether he thinks he is a good person, and then apply the test of whether he has lied, stolen, blasphemed, or looked at a person with lust. If this is done with gentleness and with a bit of humour, this will relax him and he will say yes to these. Then you can say that you are not judging him, but by his own admission he is a liar, thief blasphemer and an adulterer at heart. You haven't told him this but he has said it himself. Then you can ask him if there is a God and if there is a day of judgment, would he be found guilty or not guilty, and if there is a hell, would he go there.

    We are not telling him to believe that there is a God, or that there is a hell, we are just getting him to think that if there is, what might happen to him. Usually that will make sense to him.
    Then you can tell him that this God has sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to take the penalty for his sin awa from him, like being in court for a speeding fine and someone has paid his fine for him therefore he can go free.

    Then you can ask him to think carefully about what you have said, thank him for listening to you, and let him walk away. No pressure from start to finish.
     
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  13. SelfInducedHeadache

    SelfInducedHeadache New Member

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    Oz,

    The same could be said about your pro-Christian and anti-pagan presuppositions. Your arguments always back your god. Which is totally ok, It's just that my actions towards other gods are as legal is yours. I know mine just seem more of a stretch, but that's, because most of pagan knowledge was purged from the earth by years of colonialist supremacy.


    I totally see, that, in exodus, the Israelite god overwhelmed the Egyptian gods. I just wanted to include the possible answer of an Egyptian, if their culture was continued, because the victory over a dead culture sais nothing. The problem with comparing gods, is that all gods the bible defeats are lost to time. We know these empires died, so the biblical perspective on them seems about right. But now there are new claims like the evergrowing Islam, The Heavenly Mandate of the Chinese. Sadly, the time of big wonders seems to be over, so we can’t neatly compare these religions. Yes, I demand a continuous stream of proof, this is how I think truth shall be established. If the situation can't be repeated, then it's not valid enough.


    Thing is, I don't take the exodus is a perfect accurate record, I believe that nothing this old can be perfectly accurate, like we don't even really know if the moon landing is real, so going further back comes at a cost of accuracy. But from my research it is known that there were groups of slaves, who rebelled and fled from Egypt and it is assumed they arrived in the general area of Cana. But at the same time, it is also perceived, that these slaves worshipped various gods. In the end everything is wibbly-wobbly. As the old testament seems to be first written down at king David’s reign, 500 years after the exodus. So, from a time perspective it's as accurate as homers works which also has a wiggle room of 500 years.


    SelfInducedHeadache
     
  14. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    True. All gods are easily, no question, defeated by the Creator. All the time, never fails.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ? ... the earth is FULL of pagan knowledge TODAY.... and yes, it is already defeated in Christ Jesus - no worries about that
     
  15. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Thus, then, your self induced head aches ?
    Really, all that exists is proof of the Creator. Relax, and see that - tell Him you have been hurt too much, you see too much falseness all around you - tell HIM what you think.....
     
  16. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone doubts the OT contains some accurate Jewish history. But that doesn't mean that therefore everything in it is historically accurate (that's the fallacy of composition). The Quran contains accurate middle eastern history as well, does that mean that therefore the accounts of Mohammed ascending into heaven are also accurate?

    The website you linked to even admits to faulty reasoning: "The point is that if late periods of history can be shown to be corroborated by unimpeachable secular sources, it follows a fortiori that earlier ones should at least be given presumptive benefit of the doubt."

    Should we apply that same reasoning to holy books from other religions?

    Same thing.

    Have you applied that same reasoning to other religions?

    You'll have to provide more than faulty logic and selective application before we can talk about rationality.
     
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  17. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    It's funny how when the Christians I know personally have said something like that to me and I respond by asking them what they think I need to stop doing, they're stumped. Then when I point out that I live the same lifestyle they do (and in some cases I live a "cleaner" one) they invariably change the subject.

    That's like saying "off" is a TV channel.

    You know what would actually help? If you spent less time listening to shysters like Ray Comfort tell you how to talk to non-Christians, and instead actually talked with non-Christians like a normal person. You might be surprised.

    I don't know if this is the case with you, but in my experiences there are some Christians (evangelicals mostly) who can only see people like me as unbelievers. They can't see me as a person with my own thoughts and life experiences, and instead see me as some caricature out of a Chick Tract, where I must worship satan, hate the gods, and live a lifestyle of evil and debauchery.

    I've always seen that as a defense mechanism, rooted in fear. They're afraid if they find out I'm just some normal guy living a normal lifestyle that isn't any worse than theirs, and someone with whom they can have very normal and pleasant conversations with, that just might cause them to let their guard down, and next thing you know I might start to sound reasonable! And that might lead to questions about some of the things they've believed and been taught, which just might lead to a crisis of faith.

    So it's far safer to keep projecting the negative imaginary caricature onto me. It creates distance and protects them from even the possibility of self-examination and potentially the worst thing of all........doubt.
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Dude,

    You didn't take notice of the content of the historical research on the OT that I gave you by Kenneth Kitchen and Walter Kaiser Jr that confirmed the historical reliability of the OT.

    I'm not convinced you want to give the OT and NT a fair hearing concerning historical trustworthiness.

    Oz
     
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  19. Justadude

    Justadude Well-Known Member

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    Again, I'm not disputing that the OT contains some accurate Jewish history. But that doesn't mean that therefore everything in the OT is historically accurate.

    Isn't that the fundamental argument you're making here?
     
  20. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Dude,

    I'm saying that the Kitchen & Kaiser Jr who checked out the historicity of the OT found it to be a reliable set of documents. These researchers did not find the OT to be historically accurate in some places.
    • So which is accurate historical info in the OT?
    • Which is inaccurate historical info in the OT?
    • Which tests do you apply to discern the accurate from the inaccurate?

    Oz
     
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