Atheists in the pulpit; an oxymoron or an improvement?

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shnarkle

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Right. So all of a sudden scripture is turned on its head and unconverted unbelieving servants of sin (because that is all they are outside of Christ)

Fallacy of Begging the Question. You're simply assuming that because they hold this title of "atheist", they can't proclaim the gospel. It simply doesn't follow.

are now capable of understanding or comprehending spiritual truth, and to share that understanding with others.

Again, you're simply assuming no one can proclaim the gospel, tend to a congregation with love and compassion, etc. if they hold the title of "atheist". It's bizarre how someone who claims to be a Christians could be so judgmental about someone they no absolutely nothing about other than a superficial title.

And if in your opinion they are doing better than professing Christians, that says more to the backslidden sleeping state of the church than to the exalted state of atheists...

Perhaps, but then again, it may just be a matter of your own ignorance, not to mention your own latent prejudices. Jesus pointed out the same problem with his own disciples when they informed him of their encounters with those they didn't know who were doing God's work. Wesley pointed out that they were bigots, and these are people who were taught by Christ himself.

Particularly so if those same atheist pastors are seminary graduates.

They most certainly are seminary graduates. The thing that is most ironic about all of this is that seminaries are now teaching the fact that narratives like the gospels were originally developed within the Jewish liturgy itself. This has been common knowledge among seminary graduates for quite some times now, but most never point this out to their congregations because they're more concerned with church attendance than telling the truth. Atheists don't seem to have this problem. They appreciate the fact that the truth truly will set you free.

Everyone else has decided to place their faith in a historical account, that is now known to be anything but historical.
 
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brakelite

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. You're simply assuming that because they hold this title of "atheist", they can't proclaim the gospel. It simply doesn't follow.

if they hold the title of "atheist".
Is more than just a title. It's a mindset. They, by definition, do not believe God exists. To place such in a leadership position in an organisation predicated on relationship with the God they do not believe exists, is like I said in an earlier post... Ludicrous.
And it reveals that the colleges, seminaries, universities, the churches that accept them, and you, have a very limited understanding of the gospel, what it means to the individual, but more importantly, what it means to God. The only people who can effectually preach the gospel are those who can see the big picture in the conflict between Christ and Satan... How someone can do that while denying their existence is... Sorry, struggling for words. Not wanting to repeat myself. Impossible?
 

shnarkle

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Is more than just a title. It's a mindset. They, by definition, do not believe God exists. To place such in a leadership position in an organisation predicated on relationship with the God they do not believe exists,

No, they don't believe in the god you imagine. They don't believe in the god you objectively worship because they see that God is a term that signifies transcendence, and transcendence cannot be anything. Transcendence is beyond anything that can be articulated, or even thought. 'his ways are above our ways'. They are simply looking at the fact that they can't begin to imagine who or what God is really like. They come to this conclusion from what the biblical authors point out themselves. Unlike their traditional brethren, they are in no danger of ever becoming idolaters.

And it reveals that the colleges, seminaries, universities, the churches that accept them, and you, have a very limited understanding of the gospel,

Perhaps, but then pointing out the splinters in your neighbor's eyes only spotlights the beam in your own.


what it means to the individual, but more importantly, what it means to God. The only people who can effectually preach the gospel are those who can see the big picture in the conflict between Christ and Satan... How someone can do that while denying their existence is... Sorry, struggling for words. Not wanting to repeat myself. Impossible?

I would submit to you that they see the big picture. They see traditional Christianity dying on the vine due to an inability to meet people where they are. Christianity has become lost in a dying solipsism. I've pointed this out before, but it's worth repeating. The bible is full of examples of how God reaches out to the dead and dying. He isn't afraid to touch lepers. He doesn't avoid debating those who are familiar with God's laws. He socializes with tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. Paul uses the writings of pagan poets to proclaim the gospel message.

Traditional Christianity insists that any and all terms be used according to their limited understanding as well as their limiting view of reality. This bears no resemblance to the gospel message at all. When Christ is present in the good news, he's able to talk to the unbeliever on their own terms. This is where the atheist is able to go where the traditional Christian will never go. They can talk to the skeptic, the agnostic, and the atheist on their own terms and present the gospel message in a way they can receive it.

Another example would be Jordan Peterson who has taken much scorn and contempt from traditional Christians for claiming he's a Christian, but not according to their satisfaction. He has done more to revive interest in the bible among atheists, agnostics, skeptics and even traditional Christians than probably the last hundred years of Christianity combined. He's single handedly opened up the scriptures to people who used to look upon them with disdain and ridicule.

With God all things are possible even revealing the gospel to atheists.
 
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brakelite

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No, they don't believe in the god you imagine. They don't believe in the god you objectively worship because they see that God is a term that signifies transcendence, and transcendence cannot be anything. Transcendence is beyond anything that can be articulated, or even thought. 'his ways are above our ways'. They are simply looking at the fact that they can't begin to imagine who or what God is really like. They come to this conclusion from what the biblical authors point out themselves. Unlike their traditional brethren, they are in no danger of ever becoming idolaters.



Perhaps, but then pointing out the splinters in your neighbor's eyes only spotlights the beam in your own.




I would submit to you that they see the big picture. They see traditional Christianity dying on the vine due to an inability to meet people where they are. Christianity has become lost in a dying solipsism. I've pointed this out before, but it's worth repeating. The bible is full of examples of how God reaches out to the dead and dying. He isn't afraid to touch lepers. He doesn't avoid debating those who are familiar with God's laws. He socializes with tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. Paul uses the writings of pagan poets to proclaim the gospel message.

Traditional Christianity insists that any and all terms be used according to their limited understanding as well as their limiting view of reality. This bears no resemblance to the gospel message at all. When Christ is present in the good news, he's able to talk to the unbeliever on their own terms. This is where the atheist is able to go where the traditional Christian will never go. They can talk to the skeptic, the agnostic, and the atheist on their own terms and present the gospel message in a way they can receive it.

Another example would be Jordan Peterson who has taken much scorn and contempt from traditional Christians for claiming he's a Christian, but not according to their satisfaction. He has done more to revive interest in the bible among atheists, agnostics, skeptics and even traditional Christians than probably the last hundred years of Christianity combined. He's single handedly opened up the scriptures to people who used to look upon them with disdain and ridicule.

With God all things are possible even revealing the gospel to atheists.
I also like Jordan Peterson. And of course God can reveal the gospel to atheists. But the concept that God will place unconverted atheists in a position of leadership obey His people I cannot accept.
I see a great deal of opinionated philosophy here particularly in relation to...
No, they don't believe in the god you imagine.
... Your opinion and dogmatic assumption that the God of Christianity cannot be known. I wholeheartedly disagree with you. And while in part I do agree that atheists cannot accept and believe in the God that is taught by much of Christianity...I don't believe in that God either. The God I believe in... And I mean by that trust in.. Rely upon... Depend upon... Love and cherish... Is not a God of the imagination, but the God of revelation. And if there is any mindset within me that had an incorrect notion regarding His character (I make no judgements upon His nature... Trinity included) He will correct them as He had done in the past.
The entire controversy between Christ and Satan is over who is worthy to be crowned King . The rebellion instilled in mankind a wrong conceit of God and the last 6000 years had been a theatre of God's plan to reveal who He truly is... Partly iunmasking Satan's lies. Who is on the throne? A Lamb is if he had been slain.
 

shnarkle

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But the concept that God will place unconverted atheists in a position of leadership obey His people I cannot accept.

I'm not referring to "the concept", nor to unconverted atheists. I'm referring to people who realize that "God" is a term that has no referent in the created world. They see that Paul has pointed out the origin of all that exists cannot logically exist in the created world. They see that this term is synonymous with transcendence, and can only be approached through Christ. There is no essential difference. They simply understand the faith that you still view as a mystery.

... Your opinion and dogmatic assumption that the God of Christianity cannot be known.

Paul corrects himself in Galatians by saying "we know God or rather are known of God..." because he understands that an omniscient God, by definition, cannot be known without creating a contradiction. Paul also refutes your claim of "the God of Christianity". Romans 3:29 This is why Christianity is dying. It's become a religion limited to such a narrow view of the world that it is no longer relevant to the rest of the world. This isn't what Jesus came to do. He came to proclaim the good news to Israel, but their rejection opened it up to the rest of the world; not just Christians.



And if there is any mindset within me that had an incorrect notion regarding His character (I make no judgements upon His nature... Trinity included) He will correct them as He had done in the past. [/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but only when you're ready. Notice again, you're referring to a "notion" which is a concept, and God is not a concept, nor can God be conceptualized in the first place.

The entire controversy between Christ and Satan is over who is worthy to be crowned King . The rebellion instilled in mankind a wrong conceit of God and the last 6000 years had been a theatre of God's plan to reveal who He truly is... Partly iunmasking Satan's lies. Who is on the throne? A Lamb is if he had been slain.

Here again, this is all figurative speech, and "sound and fury signifying nothing" to those who don't know what you're talking about. The traveling evangelists come knocking on people's doors asking them if they're "washed in the blood", and wonder why people slam their doors in their faces. The atheist is able to distill this coded language down to something that is easily understandable. So instead of crowning monarchs, or slaying lambs, the atheist sees only Christ alive in all humanity.

They see the evil inclination personified in the Satan. So Christ isn't literally talking to an entity. The author is personifying Christ's own ego which he conquers in the wilderness. There is no effective difference between these interpretations. The atheist is able to see that when Christ says to Peter, "Get behind me Satan", he's spotlighting Peter's selfish motives rather than what was just revealed to him from God.

Jeremiah makes the same point when he says, "The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" Above all things? How can the heart be deceitful above all things if Satan is the father of lies? They are one and the same. You truly are your own worst enemy, but Christianity has externalized the evil inclination, and in the process we are able to ignore our own faults, or simply blame Satan for our problems.

So instead of looking at superficial labels, our bible informs us to look at the fruit being produced. We needn't accuse others of being unconverted, or holding to false doctrines. We need only look at the fruit they're producing to the glory of God.
 
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brakelite

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I'm not referring to "the concept", nor to unconverted atheists. I'm referring to people who realize that "God" is a term that has no referent in the created world. They see that Paul has pointed out the origin of all that exists cannot logically exist in the created world. They see that this term is synonymous with transcendence, and can only be approached through Christ. There is no essential difference. They simply understand the faith that you still view as a mystery.
I have no issue with the above. I agree that God, the Creator, must transcend creation, and while creation may witness to a creator, we need to avoid the trap of pantheism.
Yes, the only concrete way of approaching any understanding of God is through Christ. And that is what I have been getting at, perhaps in not so many words. But God can be known for that was at the very least, a part of the purpose for sending His Son... To reveal the Father is it not?
Paul corrects himself in Galatians by saying "we know God or rather are known of God..." because he understands that an omniscient God, by definition, cannot be known without creating a contradiction. Paul also refutes your claim of "the God of Christianity". Romans 3:29
I referenced the "God of Christianity" because we are talking about the Father of Christ.
If Paul is saying God is unknown, or utterly unknowable, he is contradicting himself.
KJV Acts 17
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

If, as Paul attests, God can be sought after and found, then He can be known.

Notice again, you're referring to a "notion" which is a concept, and God is not a concept,
It would be a notion if my understanding was error. If God subsequently revealed Himself as He truly is, it would cease to be a notion.
Here again, this is all figurative speech, and "sound and fury signifying nothing" to those who don't know what you're talking about.
I suspect I am not taking to someone who doesn't understand... And you are going to some lengths to convince me that seminary trained atheist pastors understand also.

They see the evil inclination personified in the Satan. So Christ isn't literally talking to an entity. The author is personifying Christ's own ego which he conquers in the wilderness. There is no effective difference between these interpretations. The atheist is able to see that when Christ says to Peter, "Get behind me Satan", he's spotlighting Peter's selfish motives rather than what was just revealed to him from
But you are not taking to someone who believes Satan is merely a personification of evil... And nor are you taking to someone who blames him for the sins and crimes he has committed. That's not to deny that some do.
 

shnarkle

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I have no issue with the above. I agree that God, the Creator, must transcend creation, and while creation may witness to a creator, we need to avoid the trap of pantheism.
Yes, the only concrete way of approaching any understanding of God is through Christ. And that is what I have been getting at, perhaps in not so many words. But God can be known for that was at the very least, a part of the purpose for sending His Son... To reveal the Father is it not?

You're assuming that the revelation of the father can be known; it can't be known. The revelation of the father is in, with, and through Christ who is the mediator or medium by which we are known of God. Again, Paul corrects himself when he says "after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God," Gal.4:9

If Paul is saying God is unknown, or utterly unknowable, he is contradicting himself.
KJV Acts 17
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Note that it is the UNKNOWN God, but just as importantly, what about the unknown God are they ignorant of?

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

It is in becoming aware of God's presence in, with, and through Christ that we are known of God. This is a subjective awareness, not an objective one. We don't point to any objective place in the created world and claim to know that as God. God cannot be objectively known, but only in being known of God is God revealed.

If, as Paul attests, God can be sought after and found, then He can be known.

Non Sequitur. We don't find God, he finds us. We discover that we are his prized possessions. We discover that in him, we live and move and have our being; our life is not our own. There is no such thing as private property in Christ. Our separate lives are obliterated in Christ. There is literally no one to know God. What we see is God reflected in everyone we meet, but reflections are not what they reflect. A mirror reflecting God is still just a mirror.


It would be a notion if my understanding was error. If God subsequently revealed Himself as He truly is, it would cease to be a notion.

No, a notion is a conception or belief about something. Regardless of whether or not it is accurate or not, it is still just a notion, and God cannot be a notion. Again, you're simply Begging the Question by saying "if". God can only be revealed in, with, and through Christ. The problem you don't seem to want to address is the fact that Christ isn't God. Christ is the only way to God. Christ is the way, the truth, and the life, but God is the origin of all, and transcends all. It is only in, with, and through Christ that we can transcend this world, and return to God. This doesn't then mean we will know God because transcendence transcends all knowledge. How do we know this? Because that's the definition of transcendence. It's a Given. You can't transcend knowledge and then know anything.

I suspect I am not taking to someone who doesn't understand... And you are going to some lengths to convince me that seminary trained atheist pastors understand also.

Yes, and no. What a number of pastors, atheist and theist alike; is that they understand that they cannot understand the mind of God. A God that cannot be imagined is incomprehensible. Only the idolater can understand their gods.

But you are not taking to someone who believes Satan is merely a personification of evil...

Good, glad to know you can see that Satan is not an actual person. Too many people make that assumption, and the glaring reason is our own refusal to accept the gospel message which is to enter into eternal life through the gift of repentance and self sacrifice.
 
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brakelite

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what about the unknown God are they ignorant of?
I would say they were ignorant of His character... But as Paul pointed out they were ignorant of His bring the Creator.

The problem you don't seem to want to address is the fact that Christ isn't God.
I settled that matter in my mind several years ago... Christ is the Son of God... And inherited all the natural qualities, and divine attributes of His Father, set them aside to become a man and live as a man in faith and dependance on His Father and His God.
 

shnarkle

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I would say they were ignorant of His character... But as Paul pointed out they were ignorant of His bring the Creator.


I settled that matter in my mind several years ago... Christ is the Son of God... And inherited all the natural qualities, and divine attributes of His Father, set them aside to become a man and live as a man in faith and dependance on His Father and His God.

I hear what you're saying, and agree with the sentiment. The problem is that language is incapable of presenting the truth. All we can do is refer to what simply doesn't exist. God isn't something that can be possessed. It's only a matter of speaking, and we can only articulate ideas, concepts, thoughts, etc. These are nothing more than symbols, and even when we give meaning to these symbols, the symbols are being substituted for meaning, but the meaning isn't what it refers to. It is only attributed to what it refers to.

So we talk of rocks, but these ideas of rocks are not actually rocks. We are simply identifying rocks with identifiable characteristics. The problems are manifold. You may identify a rock by size while others identify a rock by substance. Others may identify rocks by their ability to withstand crushing forces. They will say that a clod of dirt is not a rock.

The problem is impossible to resolve when there is no referent. When dealing with God, the only referent is "the word" itself. This is what John is spotlighting in his introduction. It is the only way to begin anything, even creation.

All of creation is potentially in God. It is omni-potential, but it cannot begin to exist in God because God is the origin of existence. Therefore all of creation must come from God, and through existence or being.

Again, we can attribute existence or being TO God, but attributes are not identical to what they are attributed to. I may be tall, but I am not tallness. I may have all sorts of things attributed to me, but I am not any of those things themselves. It is the same with things like existence or being which is attributed to God, but quite blatantly isn't God.

The atheist understands this, which is to say that he understands that God cannot be understood. Theists are beginning to understand this fact as well. It reveals that we don't have to have the same exact definition of God anymore. It reveals that we need to look at the defining characteristics of those who are actually followers and that is by looking at the fruit produced.

So instead of claiming we're looking at an apple tree, we look at the fruit produced. More importantly, we do the same thing Paul did by pointing to a pagan deity; we relate to the image of Christ in our fellow man regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof. We need atheist pastors, not only to broaden our horizons as believers, but to talk to fellow atheists on their own level. Using terminology they can understand and relate to.

When we see our fellow man is lost, giving them directions in a foreign language will be of no use to them whatsoever. After Pentecost, we see the church speaking to people not only in their native tongues, but in the exact same dialect, and this is no less necessary when it comes to the atheist, agnostic, skeptic, homosexual, transgendered, etc.

Doctrines, dogmas, laws, can never save them so they cannot be used effectively to draw anyone to Christ. The gospel message is what draws people to Christ regardless of where these people are when they first hear it.

We don't have to forget where we came from, especially when dealing with people who are in the same place now. We can talk to them on their level, or as Paul says, "I speak as a man". He speaks in human terms that are understandable to fallen humanity.

This is what is so tragic about modern day Christianity. Christians don't want to speak to fallen humanity from anywhere other than a position of solipsistic superiority.
 
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brakelite

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I hear what you're saying, and agree with the sentiment. The problem is that language is incapable of presenting the truth. All we can do is refer to what simply doesn't exist. God isn't something that can be possessed. It's only a matter of speaking, and we can only articulate ideas, concepts, thoughts, etc. These are nothing more than symbols, and even when we give meaning to these symbols, the symbols are being substituted for meaning, but the meaning isn't what it refers to. It is only attributed to what it refers to.

So we talk of rocks, but these ideas of rocks are not actually rocks. We are simply identifying rocks with identifiable characteristics. The problems are manifold. You may identify a rock by size while others identify a rock by substance. Others may identify rocks by their ability to withstand crushing forces. They will say that a clod of dirt is not a rock.

The problem is impossible to resolve when there is no referent. When dealing with God, the only referent is "the word" itself. This is what John is spotlighting in his introduction. It is the only way to begin anything, even creation.

All of creation is potentially in God. It is omni-potential, but it cannot begin to exist in God because God is the origin of existence. Therefore all of creation must come from God, and through existence or being.

Again, we can attribute existence or being TO God, but attributes are not identical to what they are attributed to. I may be tall, but I am not tallness. I may have all sorts of things attributed to me, but I am not any of those things themselves. It is the same with things like existence or being which is attributed to God, but quite blatantly isn't God.

The atheist understands this, which is to say that he understands that God cannot be understood. Theists are beginning to understand this fact as well. It reveals that we don't have to have the same exact definition of God anymore. It reveals that we need to look at the defining characteristics of those who are actually followers and that is by looking at the fruit produced.

So instead of claiming we're looking at an apple tree, we look at the fruit produced. More importantly, we do the same thing Paul did by pointing to a pagan deity; we relate to the image of Christ in our fellow man regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof. We need atheist pastors, not only to broaden our horizons as believers, but to talk to fellow atheists on their own level. Using terminology they can understand and relate to.

When we see our fellow man is lost, giving them directions in a foreign language will be of no use to them whatsoever. After Pentecost, we see the church speaking to people not only in their native tongues, but in the exact same dialect, and this is no less necessary when it comes to the atheist, agnostic, skeptic, homosexual, transgendered, etc.

Doctrines, dogmas, laws, can never save them so they cannot be used effectively to draw anyone to Christ. The gospel message is what draws people to Christ regardless of where these people are when they first hear it.

We don't have to forget where we came from, especially when dealing with people who are in the same place now. We can talk to them on their level, or as Paul says, "I speak as a man". He speaks in human terms that are understandable to fallen humanity.

This is what is so tragic about modern day Christianity. Christians don't want to speak to fallen humanity from anywhere other than a position of solipsistic superiority.
I think modern Christians would benefit greatly of they understood theodicy. Not as a philosophical argument, but as a practical theodicy by which we vindicate God's methods of dealing with evil and unbelief by taking upon ourselves His righteousness and becoming Him in the flesh through our attitudes and relations to the world. Revelation says we overcome by the word of our testimony. Overcome what? The lies and slander of the enemy regarding God's character... As our testimony, as like a sworn statement before the court... The truth therefore regarding how God has dealt with us in our lives, through mercy, compassion, love, faithfulness, grace and goodness... We then walk in His steps doing the orchids same things for others. Those people you mentioned, the atheist, the sinner etc. Etc, who have no idea as to the character of God, will learn it only from us as we express that character in our lives.
 

shnarkle

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the atheist, the sinner etc. Etc, who have no idea as to the character of God, will learn it only from us as we express that character in our lives.

All sinners learn the character of God from God, and God alone. It is expressed in those who produce fruit systemically. Paul says that he becomes a Jew to save the Jew, and a gentile to save the gentiles. He would just as easily have become an atheist to save atheists. This is the mind of Christ being expressed through Paul. Christ comes in the likeness of the atheist to save the atheist. Christ even comes as a Christian to save Christians from their insane doctrines as well. Christ comes in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh. This includes atheists, agnostics, skeptics, etc. Heretical beliefs do not preclude one from salvation. They're irrelevant to the gospel message. Again, Christ points to the heretical Samaritan as the example to follow.
 

Windmillcharge

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Perhaps. I think of it more in terms of the love of God overwhelming the new creature in Christ. In other words, it's not so much the object of one's love, but the fact that is must find an object to love, and that is ultimately found in Christ; it is the love of Christ manifesting in, with, and through Christ into the objective world.

The Love of God is overwheleming, but it is focused on Jesus. The new Christian is not left woldly searching but is able to home in on Jesus.
 

Windmillcharge

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In other words, there is no essential difference between the atheist, the pagan, or the Christian. We are all one in Christ. Doctrines are a way to understand the world around us, but eventually they must be discarded for forms that fit the wider horizon that a life in Christ requires. This is required because Christ enters into, or returns to that transcendent nature. We must enter into it as well, if we're in him.

As amadus has said, there is no difference between the non christian in all his forms, but there is a major difference between the Christian and the non christian.
Namely Jesus.
The pagan and the atheist does not worship or seek to follow Jesus.
 

shnarkle

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The Love of God is overwheleming, but it is focused on Jesus. The new Christian is not left woldly searching but is able to home in on Jesus.

No, it is focused IN Christ. If you're focused on Jesus, you're automatically outside and separated from him; at least that's how you perceive it. It's a false perception. You're looking at Christ objectively rather than the subjective indwelling of the holy Spirit. Christ says he must objectively leave that the Advocate my subjectively come to indwell in them. This is depicted with his arrival on Pentecost. The Spirit descends upon them and they're filled with these gifts of the Spirit which are then manifest from within them.

We see something similar when we read of Christ breathing on them, or their hearts (again within them) burn with revelation.