Atheists in the pulpit; an oxymoron or an improvement?

[ScottA]

There was a study done some years ago showing how many atheists were attending seminary and going on to pastor Christian churches. I can't find it anymore, but did locate one showing that 17% of pastors in Denmark, or Sweden were atheists. The thing I found intriguing wasn't just that they found the job spiritually or financially rewarding, but that so many of their congregation accepted them. This isn't the case everywhere. In some cases, a congregation can dwindle by two thirds as in a well known case up in Toronto Canada.

It seems to be catching on with the progressive Christians. I spent some time monitoring a progressive website after reading a few of Jack Spong's latest books. His writing would lead most conservative or fundamentalist Christians to believe he's an avowed atheist, and yet he's quite tame in comparison to most.

Thirty years ago I would have thought this to be one of the most ridiculous ideas imaginable, but today it not only doesn't surprise me, I applaud atheists and Christians alike for accepting people regardless of these arbitrary labels.

The New Testament seems to be full of examples of heretics, unbelievers, etc. who Jesus not only accepts, but spotlights them for their supreme faith, and love. Perhaps if Jesus were alive today, he would present the Parable of the Good atheist to convict and turn the stubborn-hearted from their ways.

If the message is essentially the same, I don't really see a problem. I also think that the atheist's ability to get beyond the superficial aspects of Christianity, i.e. the long dead doctrines that seem to only sap the life from a church, and get to the message puts them at a distinct advantage. Ultimately, it's just a pointless label.

What do you think?

Should atheists be allowed to pastor churches?

Why This Atheist Is Going to Seminary | IFYC

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/24/atheist-pastor-canada-gretta-vospe...

Atheists in the Pulpit: Clergy Who Are Non-Believers

Progressing Spirit

A phony is a phony, regardless. The church is indeed full of them by every label.

As for allowing atheists to pastor [Christian] churches, no, the dead do not make good pastors. Find a pulse, or pass.

 

[ScottA]

Both the theist and the atheist alike. They are both relying upon what the texts state as well as what they were taught in seminary or whatever school of theology they attended. Guess what? They can both take the exact same test and pass it.

The "text" is not the test.

The theist does not rely "upon what the texts state." They rely on the Spirit who inspired and ordained it. The atheist does not.

 

[brakelite]

Should atheists be allowed to pastor churches?

no.

 

[shnarkle]

no.

Thanks for such an in depth and comprehensive response to my question. Evidently, the reasons for your reply aren't worth mentioning. Thanks for not wasting our time.

 

[brakelite]

What reasons can one offer for objecting to an atheist pastor that are not already obvious to everyone? The whole idea is ludicrous. God says not to mix the holy with the profane... Not to marry an unbeliever...n not to be of the world
And churches accept unbelieving shepherds to lead their flock... Where?

 

[brakelite]

To green pastures they don't believe are there? To feed the flock the word of a God they don't believe exists? Encourage their congregation to surrender their lives to a fairy tale? And you want me to elucidate the reasons why this should not be?

 

[shnarkle]

What reasons can one offer for objecting to an atheist pastor that are not already obvious to everyone? The whole idea is ludicrous.

Correction: your ideas are ludicrous. I'm not talking about ideas. I'm talking about people created in God's image who are actually proclaiming the gospel message.

God says not to mix the holy with the profane...

And you are somehow assuming that an atheist is profane? Why? They're created in the same image of God that you are, are they not? These are people who have attended and graduated from seminaries, and are legitimately being placed in churches that need pastors. Their congregations accept them, and some even thrive better than those led by pastors that supposedly believe the gospel as well.

Not to marry an unbeliever...n not to be of the world

Here's where you're really wrong. Most Christians are of the world. They are immersed in not only this world, but the gods of this world, including their own ideas of the biblical God. An atheist has this one distinct advantage over the mainstream believer in that they have no need to imagine who or what God is like. In this they are the only ones who actually follow God's commandment to refrain from imagining what God is like. They get it. You probably never will. Instead, your knee jerk reaction is to pass judgment upon those you know only by a superficial label. What a pathetic shame.

And churches accept unbelieving shepherds to lead their flock... Where?

Strawman argument, and Begging the Question. You're simply assuming that one must adhere to your agreed upon doctrines in order to be a believer. Again, one need only point out that your ideas of God are only your ideas. God is not your imagined idea, and despite your protestations to the contrary, you can't talk about anything other than your own ideas of God. There is no referent for God. That fact doesn't preclude an atheist from being a believer, it ought to move them to the front of the line instead. The sad fact is that they're the only one in that line because everyone else is an idolater.

 

[shnarkle]

To green pastures they don't believe are there? To feed the flock the word of a God they don't believe exists? Encourage their congregation to surrender their lives to a fairy tale? And you want me to elucidate the reasons why this should not be?

More straw and false witness from the peanut gallery.

 

[brakelite]

@shnarkle regardless of your bluster, the answer is still no. And you are wrong about all Christians having no idea who God is. That is as ludicrous as your approval of atheist pastors.

Again, one need only point out that your ideas of God are only your ideas. God is not your imagined idea, and despite your protestations to the contrary, you can't talk about anything other than your own ideas of God. There is no referent for God.

KJV Jeremiah 9
The Lord Will Bring Justice
23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

 

[shnarkle]

you are wrong about all Christians having no idea who God is.

My main point was that they have nothing but ideas.

 

[amadeus]

My main point was that they have nothing but ideas.

Even if this thing of 'nothing but ideas' were true of many who carry the label, Christian, I can assure you it is NOT true of all. Remember what Jesus said here:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

"Few" means just that, perhaps even among the many who claim to be followers of Christ by their designation as Christian. Nevertheless this does not make your position on atheists in the pulpit correct. I guess you overlooked my previous post on this thread:

Atheists in the pulpit; an oxymoron or an improvement?

 

[brakelite]

My main point was that they have nothing but ideas.

And you would be wrong.
KJV John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I don't "know" an idea. And my knowledge of who God is and my relationship with Him is not based on what I think, but on what He has revealed of Himself to me. Now I cannot of course speak for everyone, but then neither can you.

 

[brakelite]

How does an atheist convince his congregants that one of the most essential truths a Christian must acknowledge is that Jesus could do nothing without the Father, and nor can we?

 

[shnarkle]

And you would be wrong.
KJV John 17
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I don't "know" an idea. And my knowledge of who God is and my relationship with Him is not based on what I think, but on what He has revealed of Himself to me. Now I cannot of course speak for everyone, but then neither can you.

Yeah, sure. We can all see the abundant love of Christ just overflowing in your posts. smh. You're not fooling anyone.

 

[shnarkle]

How does an atheist convince his congregants that one of the most essential truths a Christian must acknowledge is that Jesus could do nothing without the Father, and nor can we?

The same way anyone else would. Stop obsessing on superficial labels and you might begin to understand.

 

[shnarkle]

How does an atheist convince his congregants that one of the most essential truths a Christian must acknowledge is that Jesus could do nothing without the Father, and nor can we?

It is not a pastor's job to convince anyone of their own doctrines of dogmatic assumptions. That's for religious lawyers. Only God can convince anyone of the reality of his presence operating in their lives. Look at the fruit being produced to verify the reality. The doctrines are inconsequential to Christ as can be seen in the gospel narratives themselves e.g. The faith of the Centurion, the Heretical Samaritan, prostitutes and tax collectors parading into the kingdom ahead of those with prejudicial doctrines etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps if Jesus were alive today, he would present the Parable of the Good atheist

i think "Good Samaritan" covers that?

His writing would lead most conservative or fundamentalist Christians to believe he's an avowed atheist

"He states that he is a Christian because he believes that Jesus Christ fully expressed the presence of a God of compassion and selfless love and that this is the meaning of the early Christian proclamation, "Jesus is Lord" (Spong, 1994 and Spong, 1991)"

doesnt sound very atheist to me?

 

[brakelite]

It is not a pastor's job to convince anyone of their own doctrines of dogmatic assumptions. That's for religious lawyers. Only God can convince anyone of the reality of his presence operating in their lives. Look at the fruit being produced to verify the reality. The doctrines are inconsequential to Christ as can be seen in the gospel narratives themselves e.g. The faith of the Centurion, the Heretical Samaritan, prostitutes and tax collectors parading into the kingdom ahead of those with prejudicial doctrines etc.

Jesus said... Without me ye can do nothing.

• I am not turning that into a doctrine. It's a fact of life.
• It is not a dogmatic assumption, as if there are exceptions ...as if there are people who can grow fruit separated from the Vine.
• Such a declaration from Christ is not inconsequential.
• Name one prostitute, tax collector, sinner, who has or will make it into the kingdom in their own strength.
• Now name me one atheist pastor who will with conviction and without hypocricy preach a sermon based on the grace of God.

 

[shnarkle]

Jesus said... Without me ye can do nothing.

• I am not turning that into a doctrine. It's a fact of life.

And yet atheists are doing something, therefore they are not doing it apart from Christ.

• It is not a dogmatic assumption, as if there are exceptions ...as if there are people who can grow fruit separated from the Vine.

• 
  
• So the fruit produced in these congregationS can't be separated from the Vine.
• 
  

• [*]Such a declaration from Christ is not inconsequential.
  [*]Name one prostitute, tax collector, sinner, who has or will make it into the kingdom in their own strength.

Why? I'm not making any claims that they can.

• Now name me one atheist pastor who will with conviction and without hypocricy preach a sermon based on the grace of God.

Did you click on the links provided? There are literally hundreds of them who preach with considerably more conviction than the so-called "theists". Perhaps you might want to familiarize yourself with their work so you can see how ridiculous your arguments from ignorance really are.

 

[brakelite]

And yet atheists are doing something, therefore they are not doing it apart from Christ.

• 
  
• So the fruit produced in these congregationS can't be separated from the Vine.

Why? I'm not making any claims that they can.
Did you click on the links provided? There are literally hundreds of them who preach with considerably more conviction than the so-called "theists". Perhaps you might want to familiarize yourself with their work so you can see how ridiculous your arguments from ignorance really are.

Right. So all of a sudden scripture is turned on its head and unconverted unbelieving servants of sin (because that is all they are outside of Christ) are now capable of understanding or comprehending spiritual truth, and to share that understanding with others. And if in your opinion they are doing better than professing Christians, that says more to the backslidden sleeping state of the church than to the exalted state of atheists... Particularly so if those same atheist pastors are seminary graduates.