Babylon

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Rockerduck

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What in the world do you mean ended? I've already given a post with scriptures upholding my interpretation. Where are yours? I bet you didn't even read them because you think you speak from authority. You don't! :csm
The Holy Spirit said it ended. Simple. Believe it or not. All we are waiting for is Jesus' return. The Apostle John explains it just fine in the book of the Revelation. It reads like a book to me. Everything you need to know is in the book of Revelation, and if you can, research you can verify it.
 

Jerry Huerta

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The Holy Spirit said it ended. Simple. Believe it or not. All we are waiting for is Jesus' return. The Apostle John explains it just fine in the book of the Revelation. It reads like a book to me. Everything you need to know is in the book of Revelation, and if you can, research you can verify it.
What ended? I can't believe something that isn't defined. Yeah, we're waiting for Christ to return, and? If you can't explain yourself, don't expect others to read your mind. That's silly.

As I said, I cited scripture and history to assert my interpretation. I'm not in the habit in letting anyone dismiss my work based strictly on their supposed authority, which is hubris. :csm
 

Rockerduck

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What ended? I can't believe something that isn't defined. Yeah, we're waiting for Christ to return, and? If you can't explain yourself, don't expect others to read your mind. That's silly.

As I said, I cited scripture and history to assert my interpretation. I'm not in the habit in letting anyone dismiss my work based strictly on their supposed authority, which is hubris. :csm
ok, who are the 2 witness's. It right there in chapter 11.
 

Davy

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We know from scripture that the beast from the earth is the false prophet,

Revelation 19
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. KJV

Revelation 13 reveals the beast that rises from the earth performs miracles before the beast that rises from the sea, which makes the beast from the earth the and the beast from the sea the two satanic antagonists that are cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19, above. And we know it’s the beast that WAS AND IS NOT that makes war with Christ at his return from Revelation 17,

Revelation 17
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Yes, the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 is that same "beast" of Revelation 17:8, and the seventh beast of Rev.17:10, and the eighth beast of Rev.17:11. That "another beast" that comes up out of the earth is also who many scholars consider as the "false prophet" of Rev.16:13, even though the Scripture does not emphatically tell us that "another beast" is the same as the "false prophet."


So, we know the eighth head/king is also the beast that rises from the sea through all these cross-references. Therefore, the beast from the sea IS the head/king that WAS, AND IS NOT, AND YET IS in Revelation 17,

NOPE. You added the 'sea' idea to the Rev.17 Scripture about the 'kings' where it is not written there. Can't do that.

The 'kingdom' beast is mentioned in the Rev.17:3 verse as a separate idea from the beast kings. This is the difficulty many face with trying to understand about the two separate beasts shown in Revelation. Many forget that there are two separate and different 'beast' ideas given, one being the kingdom beast idea, and the other being the beast king idea.


Revelation 17
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Again, this is also confirmed in Chapter 13,

Revelation 13
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

That above is correct, the Rev.17 beast king is about the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 that comes up out of the 'earth'. That's what Rev.17:8 & 11 is about, that beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (out of the earth). It is about Satan himself as that final beast king, for Rev.9:11 showed us it is Satan that is the angel and 'king' over the bottomless pit.

The passage makes it crystal clear the beast from the sea is the head/king that is wounded and healed. It can’t be the sixth head/king or the seventh head/king that is wounded and healed, but has to be one of the fallen five in Chapter 17 that is healed. Each of the heads/kings that had fallen WAS, AND IS NOT from John’s PERSPECTIVE, which make the risen eighth head/king one of the five that were fallen and the only one that is healed from John’s PERSPECTIVE.

NOPE. Rev.13:1 is about the 'kingdom' beast that ascends out of the 'sea'. That is NOT the beast king idea. It is one of the seven heads of the beast kingdom that suffers the "deadly wound", as we are told in the Rev.13:12, the "first beast" being that Rev.13:1 kingdom beast out of the sea.


Rev.13:1 = first beast, a KINGDOM, of seven heads, ten horns, and ten crowns, comes up out of the sea. Antichrist's ruling structure over the whole earth.

Rev.13:11 = second beast, a KING, an entity comes up out of the earth.


There are many things that FUTURISM distorts and one of them is that John’s PERSPECTIVE is the first century, insomuch as the judgment of Babylon can’t be in the first century, during the time of the Roman emperors,

I am not... a Futurist, so if you're trying to assume that I am, you have failed miserably.

I am keeping to the written Bible Scripture, and that is NOT Futurism, nor Historicism, nor Preterism, nor any ism. And I never referred to Rome as the Revelation Babylon, and definitely not the USA or European Union either.

End time Babylon will be JERUSALEM in an idol worship state, which is not in effect yet today, because that will only occur when the coming false-Messiah (beast king) shows up there. So I wish people would quit trying to find the end time Babylon on earth today as if it is already manifested when it is not yet. Those who keep looking for it on earth today reveal they don't understand the actual Bible prophecy about it. And it's easy for someone to just falsely claim... this person or that person, or this city or that city is it, out of their own personal bias, and thus totally leaving the written Bible Scripture.
 

Davy

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Here’s a clue. The Historicists that thoughtlessly retained the beasts’ amill stance never grasped amill thoughtlessly supports just two groups when Christ returns. Amill can only exit by upholding there are just two groups when Christ returns. They failed to grasp the significance that Christ separates the bride from the goats when he sends his angels to gather her to himself in the clouds, which reveals there are three groups when Christ returns according to Matthew 25 and other passages in both Old and New Testaments. The third group is the nations that the saints and Christ rule over when he returns, which agrees with the historical evidence that Premillennialism was restored to its former prominence when the power of the beast, the papacy, was broken. :csm

Not correct. The group of Matthew 25 that Christ puts on His right hand are His SHEEP. Who are His SHEEP per God's Word? His Church.

So Jewish fabrications just won't work with that Matt.25 Scripture.
 

Rockerduck

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All I read is what it wasn't not what it really meant. I don't care to be gaslighted. :csm
Not a lot in Revelation that can be verified by scripture. The 4 horses can't be verified, but they came already. The witnesses are currently here for the last 2000 yrs., and the Euphrates River is dried up, and a creek now.
 

Jerry Huerta

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Yes, the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 is that same "beast" of Revelation 17:8, and the seventh beast of Rev.17:10, and the eighth beast of Rev.17:11. That "another beast" that comes up out of the earth is also who many scholars consider as the "false prophet" of Rev.16:13, even though the Scripture does not emphatically tell us that "another beast" is the same as the "false prophet."
You are terrible in expressing what you want to say. That obviously come from the fact you fail to rightly divide the scriptures.

Again, Revelation 19:20 says, “the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,” were cast into the lake of fire. (KJV) This description comes directly from Revelation 13 about the beast from the earth,

Revelation 13
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 13:14 tells us that the beast from the earth is the false prophet, and Revelation 17 tell us the beast that is cast into the lake of fire with him is the one that rises from the abyss,

Revelation 17
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings…
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

It says “these” make war with the lamb, which identifies the beast that rises from the abyss as the beast that is cast into the lake of fire with the false prophet.

You’re trying to deny the connection with the beasts in Revelation 13, with kings in Revelation 17. Let me use the ESV version, which is superior in making the connection,

Revelation 17
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;
10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. ESV

You admitted that the kings are “kingdoms” starting with Egypt, which is wrong, but it’s an admission of how the kings are to be interpreted. But then inconsistently try to interpret the last ones as individuals. Furthermore, if they start with Egypt you have to explain how the last individual WAS before the Roman Emperor Domitian, which you still haven’t done, taking into account Satan WAS before all the kings, which doesn’t help.

The point is that the superior translation of the passage proves the heads, mountains and kings are appositives, the renaming of the beasts in Revelation and Daniel. The beasts are renamed as heads, mountains and kings. Mountains are used to illustrate kingdoms in scripture. Daniel does this when he renames the beasts in Chapters 7 and 8. The bear in 7 is renamed the Ram in 8.

You are inconsistent. If the kings start as kingdoms they remain kingdoms for the purpose of proper interpretation. This is also affirmed in Chapter 13 where it says one of the heads is wounded,

Revelation 13
3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.

No doubt the heads are also beasts according to the verse above, and that one is wounded, which the Chapter goes not to state it is the beast that rises from the sea that is the head that is wounded,

Revelation 13
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

The “first beast” is the one that rises from the sea, and the passage tells it’s the “head” that is wounded. Revelation 17 gives us more information on the wounded head,

Revelation 17
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The beast is the eighth WHAT? It is one of the heads that is wounded according to Revelation 13 verse 3 and verse 12! The beasts are symbolized as heads, mountains, and kingdoms according to all the texts presented. And the eighth one is also revealed as one of the five that are fallen, insomuch as each of the fallen WAS, AND IS NOT, from the perspective that John sees the sixth head/kingdom IS. The seven beasts, heads, mountains and kingdom are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, the papacy, American and the image America makes, according to Daniel and Revelaiton.

Now again, HOW CAN JOHN’S PERSPECTIVE BE THE FIRST CENTURY?

How can the FUTURE whore Babylon be seated on the scarlet beast at the time of the ROMAN EMPEROR DOMITIAN?

How is it that the FUTURE antichrist WAS before the ROMAN EMPEROR DOMITIAN?

How can the FUTURE antichrist be SATAN, when he was before all of the kings, not just the ROMAN EMPEROR DOMITIAN?

How can Revelation 13 relate the healed antichrist given 42 months in contradiction to the evidence it is only given one hours when healed in Chapter 17?

When you can answer these questions with a rational explanation and without senseless ad hoc explanations you might convince me that FUTURISM is true, but until you do, I’m confident that Historicism can answer them with a ration explanation, which makes FUTURISM a false doctrine. :csm
 
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Jerry Huerta

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Not correct. The group of Matthew 25 that Christ puts on His right hand are His SHEEP. Who are His SHEEP per God's Word? His Church.

So Jewish fabrications just won't work with that Matt.25 Scripture.
The bride was separated from the goats when she is caught up with Christ according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Why do you have Christ joining the bride with the goats again when he returns? :csm
 

Jerry Huerta

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Not a lot in Revelation that can be verified by scripture. The 4 horses can't be verified, but they came already. The witnesses are currently here for the last 2000 yrs., and the Euphrates River is dried up, and a creek now.
No, your dreams can't be verified by scripture, more the like. :csm
 
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Marilyn C

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Here’s a clue. The Historicists that thoughtlessly retained the beasts’ amill stance never grasped amill thoughtlessly supports just two groups when Christ returns. Amill can only exit by upholding there are just two groups when Christ returns. They failed to grasp the significance that Christ separates the bride from the goats when he sends his angels to gather her to himself in the clouds, which reveals there are three groups when Christ returns according to Matthew 25 and other passages in both Old and New Testaments. The third group is the nations that the saints and Christ rule over when he returns, which agrees with the historical evidence that Premillennialism was restored to its former prominence when the power of the beast, the papacy, was broken. :csm
Hi Jerry,

Well, first the `bride` is Israel,` (Isa. 54: 5 & 6. Hos. 2: 19 & 20) (BTW do you like being called a female, a bride? nonsense.) We are the Body. There is no male or female, but the New Man has both characteristics.

We, the Body of Christ do not come back with the Lord. We are on the Lord`s own throne ruling with Him. He sets up His rule through Israel over the nations of the world in the millennium and returns to heaven. We rule, judge fallen angels and the world System from there. (1 Cor. 2 & 3)

The angels that are sent gather the people of Israel that have scattered throughout the trib. and bring them back to Israel.
 

Marilyn C

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Hi Marilyn. You make some good points, but the Historicist’s hermeneutic provides a greater interpretation. To begin, the evidence that Babylon is a harlot, is defined in Ezekiel and Jeremiah,

Ezekiel 16
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations…
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Jeremiah 3:
1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Only God’s covenant people can play the harlot role, insomuch as the beasts, heathen or “nations” by nature cannot fall from moral rectitude.

Furthermore, the merchants of the earth are made rich by the intercourse with the kings of the earth, and the luxurious living of the harlot,

Revelation 18
3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living." ESV

You might want to check out Ryan Reeves on YouTube in his The Importance of the Reformation video where he reveals the difference between the Magisterial faction of the Reformation, as opposed to the Radical. The former held intercourse with the kings of the earth which ultimately led to the enrichment of the church and the merchants through the secularization of society, while the latter were opposed to said ramification. Reeves makes the distinction, but I’ve gone further in my work to verify the Magisterial faction led to the enrichment of themselves, the merchants and to proliferation of daughters, the denominations of Protestantism.

Again, the UN cannot fall from moral rectitude and the merchants of the earth found their wealth when the Magisterial Protestants held intercourse with the kings of the earth long before the UN was even conceived.
Ao Jerry, are you saying that Jerusalem is over all the religions of the earth. Interesting when all the world is coming against Israel and soon will. (Zech. 12: 9)

The WCC (World Council of Churches) can and have fallen. They bow to the UN`s earth religion.

And the wealth of the world is in the East, whereas the West is in great debt.