Backwards in destruction:

[VictoryinJesus]

This is a revisiting of Hebrews 10:38-39. And the word “shrink” regardless of one’s belief on whether one can be saved and then loose that salvation in Christ …a couple verses are used to support the loss of being born of God. Right or wrong, I’m skeptical of if these verses truly speak of losing or “a taking back” of what has been given of God.

Shrink: pulling back, withdrawing (shrink from), (active) to draw down or to (let down) which makes me think of the sheet let down from four corners with all the creeping things on it and Peter told to eat. We know how that goes in: do not call unclean that which God has made clean. Shrink means to be timid which Timothy was. Or to cower which they all cowered behind shut doors fearing the Jews coming for them; when Christ walked through those shit doors and breathed on them saying “peace”! “Lower” is also to shrink, but also one that repeats often in the word, even the prophets crying over going backwards…

“to go backwards” consider the dial set backwards in the OT and what happens there. Then there is Galatians where he was eating with the gentiles, until being afraid of [the] circumcision he “was drawing back” going backwards to destruction instead of forward unto edification. there is a verse somewhere but I can’t find it now on being afraid to be circumcised with and by Christ, a mention of avoidance of that circumcising of the heart.

shrinks back to destruction. Instead of going on, or continues on to edification…what does it mean to shrink back to destruction, to go backwards (figurative) to conceal or reserve? Does it relate to the dog returns to its own vomit?

Truly consider
Backwards to destruction
Instead of going forward to the “preserving of the soul” what perseverance of the soul? Could it be on to, forward on to the mark of Christ, to the persevering of The soul, to persevering of His body. Then Faith does not shrink or go backwards to destruction (not as single, but a way of being) but instead is bold to the continuous forward movement…out from destruction…forward it continues on to the edification of His body, forward and not backwards “to the perfection of His body”. To me this is important in discussing or debating “loss” because then the loss is Christ’s who said all things are for and by Him. How do we know “to destroy” or to “go backwards” to destruction doesn’t mean instead “continue on forward” to edification …how then is edification or perfecting of His body the destruction of others instead of urging them on forward to perfection in Christ, and not calling them backwards? How does Faith work backwards instead of forwards unto edification?
Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Point is: how do we become so self-centered that the gospel becomes about what we have or have obtained individually that another has not yet achieved…instead of a body that moves, breathes, and has its being “together” in Christ. How do we move so much as individual instead of as whole in Him? Where if one member of the body suffers, the whole body suffers? If one member of the body rejoices the whole body rejoices with it? The focus on one who goes backwards instead of “of those who have Faith to the persevering of the soul” …the soul objective being to point out the loss of the soul of the body, instead of edification of it?

Hebrews 10: 38-39
But my righteous one shall live by Faith, and if he shrinks back(wards), My soul has no pleasure in him. Ezekiel 18:32, Ezekiel 33:11, Romans 1:32
But we are not of those who shrink back(wards) into destruction (deceiving and being deceived), but of those who have faith to the persevering of the soul. (Edification)

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!

…but I trust you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. (Do not shrink back, or go backwards)

the topic being them…saying not so that we will appear approved (as Lord’s over you), but that you may do what is right, even if we appear unapproved. (Beneath you, as helpers of your faith, helpers of Christ)

for we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong, this we also pray for (Christ said the Father will give unto you whatever you pray for in My name, ask and believe you have them), we also pray(ask), that you be made complete. (Faith?)

saying “I am writing these things while being absent, so that when present I [need] not use severity in accordance with the authority which the LORD gave for building up and not tearing down.
We are not as those who go backwards or “shrink back” to “tearing down” or “to destruction” but through “Faith” in accordance with the authority the LORD gave for building up, for edification “to the persevering of the soul” His body; we pray “you be made complete” not backwards but perfecting of His body?

 

[MatthewG]

Hello VictoryinJesus,

Continuing steadfast, persistence in faith. Is good for saving the soul. (Our Mind/Will/Emotion/Heart). If one stops having faith, is there some type of loss? I do believe so. Though God will be the one to judge that person.

Continuing to move forward and grow in knowledge of God and the Lord is a very helpful and useful thing for a person to even have their mind on heavenly things and not so much on the world itself.

We are to build up each other, pray, and have love for God first. Love for Others. Of course for each person they have different people they will converse and see in real life. The internet is kind of a mimic of this however a person can still communicate and pray, and listen to others and have love for God, and love for them as well.

Thoughts?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hello VictoryinJesus,

Continuing steadfast, persistence in faith. Is good for saving the soul. (Our Mind/Will/Emotion/Heart). If one stops having faith, is there some type of loss? I do believe so. Though God will be the one to judge that person.

Continuing to move forward and grow in knowledge of God and the Lord is a very helpful and useful thing for a person to even have their mind on heavenly things and not so much on the world itself.

We are to build up each other, pray, and have love for God first. Love for Others. Of course for each person they have different people they will converse and see in real life. The internet is kind of a mimic of this however a person can still communicate and pray, and listen to others and have love for God, and love for them as well.

Thoughts?

Yes there is loss! One then becomes a disobedient child of God and while we are in rebellion, God will allow us to bear the consequences of our sin, to bring us to teh end of ourselves and like th eprodigal son- return to our Father.

Once again our relationship stays as a child of God, but because we are living in sin- our fellowship is blocked and we no longer know the blessings of God in our day to day lives!.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Mind/Will/Emotion/Heart

Makes me consider: One Mind, One Heart, One Will …One Body with many members.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Point is: how do we become so self-centered that the gospel becomes about what we have or have obtained individually that another has not yet achieved…instead of a body that moves, breathes, and has its being “together” in Christ. How do we move so much as individual instead of as whole in Him? Where if one member of the body suffers, the whole body suffers? If one member of the body rejoices the whole body rejoices with it? The focus on one who goes backwards instead of “of those who have Faith to the persevering of the soul” …the soul objective being to point out the loss of the soul of the body, instead of edification of it?

Hebrews 10: 38-39
But my righteous one shall live by Faith, and if he shrinks back(wards), My soul has no pleasure in him. Ezekiel 18:32, Ezekiel 33:11, Romans 1:32
But we are not of those who shrink back(wards) into destruction (deceiving and being deceived), but of those who have faith to the persevering of the soul. (Edification)

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!

…but I trust you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. (Do not shrink back, or go backwards)

the topic being them…saying not so that we will appear approved (as Lord’s over you), but that you may do what is right, even if we appear unapproved. (Beneath you, as helpers of your faith, helpers of Christ)

for we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong, this we also pray for (Christ said the Father will give unto you whatever you pray for in My name, ask and believe you have them), we also pray(ask), that you be made complete. (Faith?)

saying “I am writing these things while being absent, so that when present I [need] not use severity in accordance with the authority which the LORD gave for building up and not tearing down.
We are not as those who go backwards or “shrink back” to “tearing down” or “to destruction” but through “Faith” in accordance with the authority the LORD gave for building up, for edification “to the persevering of the soul” His body; we pray “you be made complete” not backwards but perfecting of His body?

That may be a decent application, but that is not what these verses are speaking of. Remember no matter what we have to keep passages and even whole letters in context to avoid misunderstanding what is being written.

This letters was written to jews, and by the tone and debate in the letter, to many unsaved Jews who have been fellowshipping with saved jews in Israel. The date of the letter is somewhere after 66 Ad but before 70 AD. Let me briefly bring in the full context so we all can be blessed.

1. This letter is received after Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in 66 Ad but before the destruction of 70 Ad. It may have been after Titus ceased the siege to go back to Rome to see his father crowned Cesar!

2. The writer is once again encouraging Jews by showing them Jesus is the fulfilment and the once for all sacrifice for sin.

3. He is reminding them also that they know this, have come to understand this through the Scriptures (enlightened and tasted etc.).

4. Based on the construct in the Greek, these were not saved jews, but Jews who were "on the brink" so to speak.

5. These jews were suffering terribly both at the hands of the Jews and the Romans. Many were ostracized like the believing Jews were.

6. the writer is telling them if they turn back, there is no more repentance, for the death at the hands of Rome is at hand (the fulfilment of Luke 21:20-24).

7. Also for them to return to the sacrifical system for the atonement of their sins, is to crucify Jesus afresh. Remember they were enlightened and tastedeternity.

Hope this helps

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That may be a decent application, but that is not what these verses are speaking of. Remember no matter what we have to keep passages and even whole letters in context to avoid misunderstanding what is being written.

This letters was written to jews, and by the tone and debate in the letter, to many unsaved Jews who have been fellowshipping with saved jews in Israel. The date of the letter is somewhere after 66 Ad but before 70 AD. Let me briefly bring in the full context so we all can be blessed.

1. This letter is received after Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in 66 Ad but before the destruction of 70 Ad. It may have been after Titus ceased the siege to go back to Rome to see his father crowned Cesar!

2. The writer is once again encouraging Jews by showing them Jesus is the fulfilment and the once for all sacrifice for sin.

3. He is reminding them also that they know this, have come to understand this through the Scriptures (enlightened and tasted etc.).

4. Based on the construct in the Greek, these were not saved jews, but Jews who were "on the brink" so to speak.

5. These jews were suffering terribly both at the hands of the Jews and the Romans. Many were ostracized like the believing Jews were.

6. the writer is telling them if they turn back, there is no more repentance, for the death at the hands of Rome is at hand (the fulfilment of Luke 21:20-24).

7. Also for them to return to the sacrifical system for the atonement of their sins, is to crucify Jesus afresh. Remember they were enlightened and tastedeternity.

Hope this helps

I get that it was to the Jews. Only question if “to shrink back” or “to go backward” is evidence of salvation as lost …or evidence of the chastening and discipline of the Lord? The end part you wrote above “they crucify Jesus afresh” and put him to an open shame. Consider OT and all the mention of “to go backward”:

Psalm 40:15 let them be ashamed (humiliated?) and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it, let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psalm 70:2 …let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt.

Isaiah 1:4 “they have gone backward”

Isaiah 28: 13 but the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little, that they might go, and fall backward…
That they might go, and fall backward …into destruction?? …and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isaiah 59:14 is the Lord telling them saying “I am thy redeemer” that frustrates the tokens of the liars, making diviners mad; that turn the wise men backward, and make their knowledge foolish.
^see though I don’t understand how this becomes evidence of loss of “I am thy redeemer” when instructed to: if any think he knows something he does not yet know as he ought, but instead let him become a fool?

Jeremiah 7:24 they walked in the imagination of their evil heart and went backward, and not forward.

Lamentations 1:1-22 the entire of it about Jerusalem ending with
Lamentations 1:22 Let all their wickedness come before thee; and do unto them, as thou hast done unto me for all my transgressions: for my sighs are many, and my heart is faint.

lastly Romans 11:12 Now if the fall (to go backward?) of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (to go backward?) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25-30 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness (to go backward?) in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies (to stumble backward, to be taken, lowered, snared, let down?) for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. [29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [30] For as you in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy (to go forward) through their unbelief (to go backward)

does any of that make sense? I guess the question being if Jerusalem is said to go backward …yet God is not finished with those who went backward. Then does “to go backward” imply salvation as being lost? What does to be humiliated mean?

 

[Enoch111]

I get that it was to the Jews. Only question if “to shrink back” or “to go backward” is evidence of salvation as lost …or evidence of the chastening and discipline of the Lord?

Neither. For Hebrew Christians to "go back" meant that they were trying to hang on to the stipulations of the Old Covenant while believing on Christ. It would have been hard for strict Jews to suddenly give up all their beliefs regarding the Law of Moses. But even while they were vacillating, Paul was confident that they would cling to Christ and learn from this letter.

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Neither. For Hebrew Christians to "go back" meant that they were trying to hang on to the stipulations of the Old Covenant while believing on Christ. It would have been hard for strict Jews to suddenly give up all their beliefs regarding the Law of Moses.

is that the same as to be double-minded? Tossed? If so, and that was to the Jews only. How do we, not naturally a Jew …struggle with double-mindedness? Or does ‘to go backward’ only apply to ‘going backward’ to the OT instead of ahead to Faith in Christ? Is it impossible then for those under the NT to be double minded…caught between going backward instead of forward? If if they go backward into destruction, what are they going backward to?

But even while they were vacillating, Paul was confident that they would cling to Christ and learn from this letter.

Exactly. Yet how was Paul persuaded better things of them? Not being as one who shrinks back, or as one to go backward into destruction but as one that walks forward unto edification; believing unto the preserving of the soul?


The question I had there was with regards to “but of those who have faith to the persevering of the soul.”
Luke 17:31-33 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. [32] Remember Lot's wife. [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

 

[Enoch111]

is that the same as to be double-minded? Tossed? If so, and that was to the Jews only. How do we, not naturally a Jew …struggle with double-mindedness?

You could say that. How do Gentile Christians show double-mindedness? By sitting on the fence instead of clearly holding fast to Gospel truth and Bible truth. Being tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

 

[farouk]

is that the same as to be double-minded? Tossed? If so, and that was to the Jews only. How do we, not naturally a Jew …struggle with double-mindedness? Or does ‘to go backward’ only apply to ‘going backward’ to the OT instead of ahead to Faith in Christ? Is it impossible then for those under the NT to be double minded…caught between going backward instead of forward? If if they go backward into destruction, what are they going backward to?



Exactly. Yet how was Paul persuaded better things of them? Not being as one who shrinks back, or as one to go backward into destruction but as one that walks forward unto edification; believing unto the preserving of the soul?


The question I had there was with regards to “but of those who have faith to the persevering of the soul.”
Luke 17:31-33 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. [32] Remember Lot's wife. [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

@VictoryinJesus The pull of religious tradition and the pull of the world - in the end amounts to much the same thing, right?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I get that it was to the Jews. Only question if “to shrink back” or “to go backward” is evidence of salvation as lost …or evidence of the chastening and discipline of the Lord? The end part you wrote above “they crucify Jesus afresh” and put him to an open shame. Consider OT and all the mention of “to go backward”:

Except that it is not! It is talking about physical punishment and shrinking away from what they were taught. Teh Greek makes it abundantly clear these were not saved jews, but Jews who were as we would say "on the edge".

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

this has to do with physical punishment and not a loss of salvation.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Except that it is not! It is talking about physical punishment and shrinking away from what they were taught. Teh Greek makes it abundantly clear these were not saved jews, but Jews who were as we would say "on the edge".

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

this has to do with physical punishment and not a loss of salvation.

I really struggle with clarity, because the motive for this thread was not to claim it supports a loss of salvation. what I was attempting to share was a question regarding who is the topic of “the saving of the soul” in: those of Faith who do not shrink back into destruction, but instead believe unto the saving of the soul.”

The standard is said, that “Faith” is the belief unto the preserving of yourself, even though He said “without Me you can do nothing”. Consider Acts 4:32 says “and the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and not one claimed anything belonged to him.

“But My righteous One (why One?) shall live by faith; and if He shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in Him. but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those (the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul,) who have Faith to the preserving of the Soul.”

why “those who believed were of one heart and soul”? And is Faith; to the preserving of those of one Heart and Soul? No, the motive wasn’t to suggest the loss of His ability to preserve those of one Heart and Soul, but instead unto the edifying of it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I really struggle with clarity, because the motive for this thread was not to claim it supports a loss of salvation. what I was attempting to share was a question regarding who is the topic of “the saving of the soul” in: those of Faith who do not shrink back into destruction, but instead believe unto the saving of the soul.”

The standard is said, that “Faith” is the belief unto the preserving of yourself, even though He said “without Me you can do nothing”. Consider Acts 4:32 says “and the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and not one claimed anything belonged to him.

“But My righteous One (why One?) shall live by faith; and if He shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in Him. but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those (the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul,) who have Faith to the preserving of the Soul.”

why “those who believed were of one heart and soul”? And is Faith; to the preserving of those of one Heart and Soul? No, the motive wasn’t to suggest the loss of His ability to preserve those of one Heart and Soul, but instead unto the edifying of it.

And you are confusing eternal destiny with our daily experience.

God is not pleased with us because of us- he is pleased with us because of Jesus! Sin has been forever judged and the penaltypaid in jesus, now God is free to deal with us as sons. And as Sons He has promised to see us into eternity. Now if we are obedient sons we recieve great joy, blessing and peace in this life. If we are disobedient sons, we lose peace, joy, and blessings. Not because God has stopped loving us or we are no longer children, but we have caused sini to block our fellowship with god and we are experiencing the wages of sin.

I have explained this to many of my classes this way. Picture a highway smooth and wonderful, but is bordered on both sides by brambles weeds and thorns. As long as we stay on teh highway we have a great ride, if we drive through th ebrambles a rough ride.

That is our Christian life! As long as we are obedient we know great joy and peace, but if we disobey, we struggle through the weeds! Still children, just disobedient children.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Still children, just disobedient children.

To clarify are you saying all are His children then? The disobedient and obedient?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And you are confusing eternal destiny with our daily experience.

how can you not combine the two because doesn’t “daily experience” manifest or reveal “eternal destiny”? How can the two not be intertwined: “daily experience” with a determine reaching point up ahead? You didn’t answer the question though but instead danced around it: to clarify are you saying all are Gods children…the disobedient and the obedient?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

how can you not combine the two because doesn’t “daily experience” manifest or reveal “eternal destiny”? How can the two not be intertwined: “daily experience” with a determine reaching point up ahead? You didn’t answer the question though but instead danced around it: to clarify are you saying all are Gods children…the disobedient and the obedient?

They should but they aren't always. Take Mark for example. Paul said He left them for He loved this present evil world. Then at teh end of his life He asked for him because he said he was useful for th eministry.

Jesus is not expecting perfection, but direction. He is in the business of sanctifying us. Positionally we are perfected forever. Experientially we are being made sanctified, IOW we are works in progress.

god forbid we should fall into an apparent prolonged season of sin, but that experience does not show our eternal destiny.

 

[MatthewG]

Point is: how do we become so self-centered that the gospel becomes about what we have or have obtained individually that another has not yet achieved…instead of a body that moves, breathes, and has its being “together” in Christ. How do we move so much as individual instead of as whole in Him? Where if one member of the body suffers, the whole body suffers? If one member of the body rejoices the whole body rejoices with it? The focus on one who goes backwards instead of “of those who have Faith to the persevering of the soul” …the soul objective being to point out the loss of the soul of the body, instead of edification of it?

Hebrews 10: 38-39
But my righteous one shall live by Faith, and if he shrinks back(wards), My soul has no pleasure in him. Ezekiel 18:32, Ezekiel 33:11, Romans 1:32
But we are not of those who shrink back(wards) into destruction (deceiving and being deceived), but of those who have faith to the persevering of the soul. (Edification)

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves [to see] if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!

…but I trust you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. (Do not shrink back, or go backwards)

the topic being them…saying not so that we will appear approved (as Lord’s over you), but that you may do what is right, even if we appear unapproved. (Beneath you, as helpers of your faith, helpers of Christ)

for we rejoice when we ourselves are weak but you are strong, this we also pray for (Christ said the Father will give unto you whatever you pray for in My name, ask and believe you have them), we also pray(ask), that you be made complete. (Faith?)

saying “I am writing these things while being absent, so that when present I [need] not use severity in accordance with the authority which the LORD gave for building up and not tearing down.
We are not as those who go backwards or “shrink back” to “tearing down” or “to destruction” but through “Faith” in accordance with the authority the LORD gave for building up, for edification “to the persevering of the soul” His body; we pray “you be made complete” not backwards but perfecting of His body?

Hello VIJ,

I don’t know if you have family and friends that you see often but it is always about encouragement and building up other people in the Lord. It seems that as a thirty year old man. The chance to talk about the word of God is when it is brought up to another person. Haven’t found many people who just like to always like to constantly talk about the word of God itself except maybe sometimes here online. We tend to have our own opinion but overall we know the truth found looking into the Bible and that is where one can renew their mind by the washing of the word.

I encourage you to continue to do what you have been doing looking into the word and sharing it when you are given the chance.

Let’s keep running the race as Paul puts it in Ephesians and holding on to the Lord as we do so, God is good and he cares about you and others friend.