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Featured BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by LC627, Nov 13, 2018.

  1. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    There are many who believe that baptism is the point of salvation, where we come in contact with the blood of Jesus and are forgiven of our sins and when we receive the Holy Spirit. Talking to a church of Christ friend the other day and we discussed baptism.

    Acts 2:38: Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    1 Peter 3:21: and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    Acts 22:16: And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

    Mark 16:16: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    church of Christ believes that the "for" (Eis) means "for the purpose of" in Acts 2:38. So, Baptism then would be for the purpose of "remission of sins" and where we come in contact with the blood of Jesus, with their interpretation of Scripture. Baptism is also how one gets "into / puts on Christ" (Galatians 3:27). Also, baptism is what "adds you to the church". Faith/belief/repentance does not add you to the church unless you've been baptized.

    Where we currently live, this doctrine is very popular. What are your thoughts on this matter? :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
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  2. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    See the order at Acts 2.41: They were not baptised in order to become believers in the Lord Jesus and His Work and the Cross. They were baptised because they were believers, because they already gladly received the preaching of Peter and the Apostles at Pentecost.
     
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  3. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    I use the example of Cornelius in Acts 10 and how they received the Holy Spirit before baptism.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You missed a question mark at the end of the title, so its sounds like the truth. Baptism does not save, but confirms that one is saved.

    Only the blood of Christ can wash away sins and keeps on cleansing us from all our sins.

    But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 Jn 1:7)
     
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  5. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I accidentally hit enter before I finished the title.

    Im going to play Devils advocate here, how does one access the blood of Jesus and get into Christ apart from baptism? It's not that getting wet saves you but it's the contact point of meeting the blood, taking part of His death, burial, and resurrection.

    Colossians 2:11-13:
    11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
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  6. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Amen! Ditto...Yes, what he said.
     
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  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    When God justifies the sinner who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, He forgives his past sins and cleanses or washes his soul with the blood of Christ, while the Holy Spirit administers "the washing of regeneration". Everything happens at the same time, and it is all spiritual.

    King James Version (1 Cor 6:11)
    And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    1. We are washed internally with the blood of Christ
    2. We are sanctified with the gift of the Holy Spirit, and through regeneration
    3. We are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone and the finished work of Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection.

    TITUS 3
    4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


    Water baptism merely AFFIRMS that all of this has already happened. Therefore the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is FALSE.
     
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  8. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    When I was talking with my friend I used several examples of showing why that belief of baptismal regeneration is wrong.

    1) I mentioned the story from the gospel of Luke of when the Pharisee and the tax collector were at the Temple praying. The tax collector went away justified before God. This example was dismissed since they were at the Temple and under OT times.

    2) Thief on the cross: He replied that the thief could have been baptized before since he had some knowledge of Jesus and called Him "Lord". Which would be ironic because both of the criminals were mocking Jesus before that. Some believe the thief died under the OT time but Jesus died first and the curtain in the Temple was torn in two. I see that was the beginning of the New Covenant. So that example was dismissed too.

    3) This one got him thinking. I said for the people who Jesus forgave while on the earth they would have no need to be baptized, right?

    4) Romans 10:10 says that "for it is with the heart that you believe and are justified..." also with that, we are justified through faith.

    Towards the end of the conversation my friend said that faith, repentance, and baptism are all equal, but baptism would be the point of salvation since with his interpretation that is where we come in contact with the blood of Christ.
     
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  9. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we don't baptize unbelievers.
     
  10. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    As a member of the church of Christ myself, the Greek word eis always means looking forward and is never defined as "because" any of the 1700 or so times it is used in the NT.

    Changing the meaning of the word eis to "because" creates problems--

    (1) in the immediate verse of Acts 2:38 Peter joined "repent" to 'be baptized" with the conjunction 'and' meaning the two cannot be separated. This means if one is baptized BECAUSE his sins are already remitted then one repents BECAUSE his sins are already remitted which makes no sense.

    Furthermore, in the context of Acts 2, Peter convicted those Jews of the sin of crucifying the Messiah (Acts 2:23,36). This conviction of this sin by Peter upon them pricked these Jews in their hearts prompting them to ask Peter "what shall we do". If eis means because then we have Peter responding to their question by commanding them to "repent and be baptized BECAUSE you are already saved." Evidently these Jews did not know they were already saved by asking what they shall do, which is very strange. If they were saved BEFORE verse 38 then exactly in which verse of Acts 2 did they UNKNOWINGLY become saved and why that verse?

    We are told in Acts 2:40-41
    40 - "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."
    41 - "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

    Again, if they were already saved PRIOR to verse 38 then what did they do to save themselves before verse 38? And why would Peter command them to 'save yourselves' in verse 40 if they were already saved prior to verse 38? How would they 'save themselves'?

    From verse 41 above, if those baptized were the ones who gladly received the gospel word then the logical conclusion is those who were NOT baptized did NOT gladly receive the gospel word preached by Peter. And how could those who rejected the gospel word by NOT being baptized be saved having rejected the gospel word?


    In Acts 2:21 Peter quotes a prophecy of Joel "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" and this prophecy was fulfilled here in Acts 2 on Pentecost in verse 38--

    verse 21-------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
    verse 38-------repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

    Since there is just one way to be saved then it is apparent that verse 38 must be the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy in how men would be SAVED hence verse 38 is showing how men are to be saved. "Call upon the name of the Lord" means doing what the Lord said to do (Luke 6:46). Again, if they were saved prior to verse 38, then
    --in what verse PRIOR to verse 38 was Joel's prophecy fulfilled?
    --in what verse PRIOR to verse 38 did they 'save yourselves'?
    --in what verse prior to verse 38 did they cal on the name of the Lord and do what the Lord said to do?


    Lastly:
    Acts 2:38----------------be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>for remission of sins
    1 Peter 3:21-------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved

    Since there is just one way to be saved, then both verses must harmonize and they do harmonize by showing baptism does save. Therefore one verse (Acts 2:38) does NOT teach baptism does NOT save while the other verse (1 Pet 3:21) clearly says baptism saved


    It becomes evident to me that changing the meaning of eis to 'because' creates many logical flaws, impossibilities.

    Therefore in Acts 2:38, baptism is FOR the remission of sins:
    ---baptism for the remission of sins is fulfillment of Joel's prophecy
    ---by obeying the command to be baptized is the sense that they 'saved themselves'
    ---by obeying the command to be baptized is 'calling upon the name of the Lord' in doing what the Lord has commanded in submitting to water baptism.
    ---both Acts 2:38 and 1 Pet 3:21 harmonize in showing baptism does save.




    (2) the same phrase "for remission of sins" of Acts 2:38 is also found in Matthew 26:28. .."For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Changing eis to 'because' then has Christ shedding His blood BECAUSE sins have already been remitted which is not possible, (Hebrews 9:22) "....and without shedding of blood is no remission."

    1 Timothy 1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to (eis) life everlasting." Again, if one changes the meaning of eis to "because" then we have Paul saying "to them which should hereafter believe on Him BECAUSE they already have everlasting life. Changing eis to 'because' has people already having everlasting life BEFORE they even believe. Another Biblical impossibility.
     
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    It is truly amazing that even after what has been revealed in the New Testament, the *traditionalist* churches (RCC and EOC), as well as the CoC, and the Mormons (perhaps others) believe that the water of baptism washes away sins. But Jesus said that remission of sins is through repentance (Lk 24:46,47).

    And [CHRIST] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
     
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  12. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Had you gone to Acts 3:19 you could have saved yourself some major misunderstanding:Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord...

    So how are sins "blotted out" (remitted, forgiven)? There's your answer.
     
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  13. LC627

    LC627 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your reply. From my many talks with CoC people, I heard baptism more than I hear about Jesus, faith, and repentance. If a person without faith/belief in God is baptized they are still not saved. Simply being baptized does not save a person, faith/belief/repentance all come before the act of baptism.
     
  14. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    Acts 2:38---- repent+++++++++++++++be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for remission of sins
    Acts 3:19---- repent++++++++++++++be converted>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sin blotted out


    Since there is one way to be saved and the Bible does not contradict itself then both verses say the exact same thing, Hence being baptized is conversion.
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Amen! :)
     
  16. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    Because baptism is the means God has chosen to save men.

    Again from Rom 10:10 belief and confession are UNTO salvation, they lead one towards salvation but it is not until one is water baptized that one is saved.

    In Mark 16:16 Jesus made belief a prerequisite to being baptized so the unbeliever cannot be Biblically baptized. Therefore baptism by itself cannot save without belief and belief cannot save without baptism, BOTH belief AND baptism are necessary.
     
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  17. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    You have to remember 1 John 1:7 is spoken to those who are ALREADY Christians, those who ALREADY have been baptized.

    The washing away of sins BEGINS at the point of water baptism and CONTINUES to wash away all sins as long as the Christian conditionally walks in the light.
     
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  18. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree; in Acts 2.41, those who were already believers were baptised; they did not get baptised in order to become believers, in order to become cleansed.
     
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  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    In John 3, Jesus is speaking with the Pharisee, Nicodemus:

    John 3:2-5
    He came to Jesus at night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you are doing unless God is with him.”
    Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.
    ”Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be BORN AGAIN? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?” Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit.


    I’ve had countless Protestants tell me that Jesus is speaking here is the amniotic fluid that we are ALL surrounded by in our mother’s wombs. This is the most ridiculous explanation I’ve ever heard because that’s NOT what they were talking about. Nicodemus explicitly asked Jesus how a person can be Born AGAIN.

    Through amniotic fluid is the way we are initially born into the worldNOT into CHRIST. We are born into Christ through WATER and Spirit. This is why Peter, comparing the waters of the Flood and the Ark, states that Noah and his family were saved THROUGH WATER – just as “BAPTISM NOW SAVES YOU” (2 Pet. 3:21).

    As for the Thief on the cross – he was baptized with the Baptism of desire. He never got the chance to be baptized – but he came to faith at the end. God can and DOES make exceptions. That’s how BABIES and aborted children can be saved who never came to faith in Christ.

    Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (Mark 16:16).
     
  20. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    Of course there are lots of examples where believers were baptized, and there are examples where whole households were baptized. There is no evidence that each individual member of a household was a believer. Baptism removes Original Sin that is acquired without a conscious choice, therefore it can be removed without a conscious choice. There is nothing in scripture about a believers ONLY baptism.

    Protestants divide into five major camps concerning the central rite of initiation into the Christian faith:
    1) Infant baptismal regeneration (e.g., Lutherans).
    2) Adult baptismal regeneration (e.g., Churches of Christ).
    3) Symbolic-only infant baptism (e.g., Presbyterians).
    4) Symbolic-only adult baptism (e.g., Baptists).
    5) No baptism required at all (e.g., Quakers, Salvation Army).

    If the Bible is so clear, this shouldn't be happening.

    Sola Scriptura is the Protestant view (their “rule of faith”) that only the Bible is an infallible authority. Perspicuity (clearness) is a key aspect or presupposition of sola Scriptura. It holds that the Bible is sufficiently clear in matters of salvation, at least, for anyone to understand without the necessary guidance of any authoritative Christian body.
    Is this true? Few things could be conceived as more fatal to the position than multiple hundreds of competing, feuding denominations, where – sadly – much error must be present, according to the laws of contradiction.

    Many simply deny that baptism is “central.” Yet the Bible insists on the crucial nature of baptism:
    Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; . . .
    Titus 3:5 he saved us, . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, (cf. Jn 3:5)
    1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah's ark], now saves you, . . .


    The Apostle Paul referred to “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph 4:5). The Catholic, when studying the Bible, wants to know if his interpretations are in line with those of the Church, and apostolic tradition. In this way, doctrinal unity can be maintained.

    It's not that Scripture is so unclear and esoteric that it is an utter mystery and an undecipherable “code” that only Holy Mother Church can break, and that no individual can possibly understand. Rather, the Church is required to speak authoritatively as to what Holy Scripture teaches, just as it spoke authoritatively with regard to what books were to be included in Scripture. Holy Scripture remains inherently what it is: God's inspired, infallible written revelation.

    Baptism is a fundamental doctrine.

    The Clearness, or “Perspicuity,” of Sacred Scripture
     
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