'Because God said so!'

[aspen]

BMS,

Me too. But what are you going to tell them if they ask what you feel about homosexual relations?

I would tell them the truth. Your scenario has never happened, by the way. And why would it? Nonbelieving homosexuals are not looking for Christian approval.

You see my friends have not taken offence and many homosexuals wont, but many will, the very fact that you tell them the truth means they have their barrier.
People are no different, some are open to the gospel and some are closed to it. Where people were closed Jesus taught His disciples to wipe the dust of their feet. That doesnt mean we stop praying for them and be stop being available for them.

It means that we continue to love them despite our disagreement.

Ok so your response then implies that Winnetou is a believer despite not believing.

Exactly! Yes! Belief in the Bible is different than belief in God, due to the fact that the Bible is not God! Excellent!

And that Jesus didnt send away the rich man. So that implies you are an unbeliever as well.

Wow - what a downer....I thought we were having a breakthough together....I really think you would love it if you could correctly label me as a nonbeliever - it would make your narrowminded view of the world so much more consistent. The bane of every fundy is cognitive dissidence.

Your response implies the NT does say the one who denies sin is a liar.

Not at all - but I see the wheels in your head turning - condemnation ahead!

Sorry thats not good enough aspen2. False teaching that is outright lying, that claims to be believing, damages the church when not dealt with.

LOL - oh okay. No room for growth I see. Winnetou is not claiming to be a teacher - he/she is not teaching anything - opinion is not teaching. Ok - I just read his/her last post and I stand corrected - I actually think he/she makes some good points!

A believer has a contrite heart to God and His word, whether struggling or not, outright bold denial especially of sin, is not the heart of a believer. 1 John 1:10 "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

I think you are judgmental.

These people spend their time emphasising how they are believers and how the sin isnt a sin.
We must pray for them but love them as pagans.

What is the difference between loving a pagan and loving a Christian? Christ did not make a distinction - why are you?

Hi aspen,

There is no scriptural justification for such a slow lead-in to proclaiming God's good clean truth, and you can't be sure you have years in hand.

You will be surprised at the people who are glad to hear God died to deliver them from their torment, just as you will be even more surprised at the people whose pride stops them from admitting they need a Saviour.

David Wilkerson gave testimony of a day when several cross-dressers turned up at Times Square Church and sat quite near the front. He gave his message in faith that God would be able to speak through him to them. Next week when those who returned, came in, they were all dressed normally. It's about love, as you say, but love does not leave people without hope. It states God's loving boundaries and declares freedom within those constraints. Outside those constraints sin abounds. Romans 2:4, 5, 6.

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first.
Jesus said to them, Verily I say to you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not:
but the publicans and the harlots believed him:
and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Dragonfly - early Christians believed that Christ was returning the day after His ascension, and then, the day after that and the day after that - the language in the NT is urgent. I believe sharing my most important relationship with others requires a relationship with others - that takes time. Would you share the intimate details of your marriage with a stranger?

The Dave Wilkerson story is great - but it says nothing about the state of their souls - I think you are really hitting on my biggest disagreement with the Christian establishment. You guys want a change in behavior before a change in heart - and you want it immediately! LOL please! Give me a break - you must really enjoy disappointment with an outlook like that.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

You guys want a change in behavior before a change in heart - and you want it immediately!

That was not at all the point of sharing that. You have no way of knowing how vehemntly I am opposed to outwards shows of conformity, (though now I've told you, you know!) and I agree with you. But, how do you know they dressed normally without having had a change of heart?

If I could remember which message he mentioned it, I would find the whole quote. I feel sure that some of them came to the Lord within the next few weeks, but I cannot remember what he said about that. His main point was about not judging a person by their appearance, or writing them off, while at the same time, not shrinking from delivering the full message in all its extremity, because it is the truth which makes people free.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,



That was not at all the point of sharing that. You have no way of knowing how vehemntly I am opposed to outwards shows of conformity, (though now I've told you, you know!) and I agree with you. But, how do you know they dressed normally without having had a change of heart?

If I could remember which message he mentioned it, I would find the whole quote. I feel sure that some of them came to the Lord within the next few weeks, but I cannot remember what he said about that. His main point was about not judging a person by their appearance, or writing them off, while at the same time, not shrinking from delivering the full message in all its extremity, because it is the truth which makes people free.

Thank you for your clarification -- I apologize for being judgmental

 

[Foreigner]

LOL Honestly, Winnetou...."St. Johns Metropolitan Community Church?"

First off, the people you are citing for Bible Translation have been shown inaccurate. If you wished to actually check and not be intentionally blind, you would know that.
They interject their opinion into translations and deal with unsubstantiated obscurity to ensure that those scriptures are read the way they want.

And a simple visit to the St. John's web site shows you their beliefs, their agenda, and the fact that they see God and His scripture how only in a way that supports THEIR beliefs.

From their "our beliefs" section of their web site:

- We are a Christian church that embraces the basic doctrines of Christianity. We confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and seek to encourage one another to live in accordance with Jesus' teachings.

(This is convenient since Jesus Himself never mentioned homosexuality. That means anything they support as far as homosexuality will not conflict with what He has said. Convenient.)

- Beyond these basics, however, we leave it to each individual to work out the details of the Christian faith in accordance with her or his interpretation of Scripture. At St. John’s MCC , we seek to create an environment where each person is encouraged to explore the hard questions of faith without fear of criticism.

(Gotta love it: "...in accordance with her or his interpretation of Scripture." Again, that means that the Scripture will mean whatever the individual says it means. It talks about exploring "the hard questions of their faith without fear of criticism" but everyone here who has examined and accepted it in a way that is DIFFERENT from this churches (and your personal) belief about gays and lesbians has been criticized.....by you.)

-We are persuaded by Scripture that lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered people are beautiful creations of God, who are invited to live in communion with God on the same basis as all other people.

(Translation: God has no problems with the homosexual lifestyle, including homosexual sexual activity. That means those Christians that stand on what the Bible says God desires are the problem. This also explains the necessary morphing of the scriptures to try to support their position)

Your partisan agenda is showing...




.

 

[aspen]

.................

 

[Foreigner]

The most telling lines from the web site Winnetou uses to criticize those that do not support the homosexual lifestye:

"Summed up – albeit very densely – what has happened is that latent bisexuals have fostered knowingly inaccurate translations and then indulged in selective hypocrisy, all to reinforce their insecure sexuality."

and

"So the problem underlying virulent homophobia is one of an unacceptable, suppressed bisexuality, not anything the Bible does or does not say. Since a person with this problem cannot even admit to himself that it exists, it can’t really be dealt with … and his reactions will be emotional ones, i.e., not subject to rational discussion, particularly if anyone suggests that the underlying problem is that person’s suppressed bisexuality. This means that, in a discussion or confrontation, the only one who will be able to maintain his cool (probably) will be you. You cannot ‘win’ such a discussion and may not even survive it."



-- You get that?

If you oppose homosexuality based on Scripture, it is because of your "surpressed bisexuality."

They even refer to the "Kinsey Report" from 1948 where he states 4% of men are homosexual, 60% of men are heterosexual,
and 36% are "are somewhere in between – the term is ‘bi-sexual.’"

So.......apparently more than one out of every three men in America is bi-sexual.

Ummmmm........no lol




.

 

[Rach1370]

All very well said Foreigner....!
I wonder when people will realise that we are not about 'insulting and suppressing' homosexual people....we're about not insulting God...our gaze is not focused on them and their sin, so much as it is focused on God and what he's told us is true. It' God that has commanded us to let men know that they are slaves, and that God loves them enough to free them...just as He did for us. If they want to be 'true to themselves' I do wonder why they can't understand that we also are being 'true' to something.

 

[Winnetou]

This internet page of St. Johns summarizes only what is in many of my books. The theological dictionary of Kittel of the new testament say the same about arsenokoites and malokoi by the way. And this dictionary is used by parish priests and theologians and is regarded as a standard work. My English, is very limited as you know. Therefore I reach to not have to copy all word out for word for internet pages where exactly stands the same.
People all of you do not know the Bible, otherwise you would talk about homosexuality differently. Or you are afraid of homosexuality because you are homosexual; or think others could regard you as it?

 

[Rach1370]

People all of you do not know the Bible, otherwise you would talk about homosexuality differently. Or you are afraid of homosexuality because you are homosexual; or think others could regard you as it?

Teehee! I'm sorry, that made me laugh! I think homosexuality is a sin...therefore I'm actually a scared gay in the closet? Nope...let me assure you...I'm a woman, and I'm SO not into women! I'm happily married and love my hubby very much.
Let me tell you the ONLY reason I say homosexuality is a sin. Because the bible says so...plainly, clearly.
However, it also tells us that we are ALL sinners, that God loves all of us, and wishes us to show that love. I will treat gay people absolutely no differently to any other person. The couple living down the road who is not married is in as much violation of scripture as the gay couple.
But regardless of how I treat them, or how I show Jesus' love to them...I cannot make their behaviour NOT a sin...to do that, would be to change scripture. Just as I do not make light of my own sins...to do so would to be making light of Christ's atoning work on the cross, and the freedom he bought for me.

 

[Winnetou]

Teehee! I'm sorry, that made me laugh! I think homosexuality is a sin...therefore I'm actually a scared gay in the closet? Nope...let me assure you...I'm a woman, and I'm SO not into women! I'm happily married and love my hubby very much.

Researches been different American universities (among other things the one of Georgia from the year 1996), prove; that those who most speak against homosexuality often have homosexual feelings by themselves. Only men were examined. Women did not happen like so often.
But also women feel unwell if they know that her best friend is a lesbian. The fear of being seduced or raped by her (an irrational fear) has to be watched particularly with religious women (as said by a study of the Berlin Humboldt - university from the year 2001).

Let me tell you the ONLY reason I say homosexuality is a sin. Because the bible says so...plainly, clearly.

Goddess (Goodness?)throw brain down. Much of this is just needed here!
But fun aside.
To himself the homosexuality is a sin that the Bible just does not say! Take Leviticus or Romans or 1st Cor. or 1st Timothy, homosexuality is not condemned at himself in any verse from the Bible.
It is always connected (as a consequence of) the withdrawal from God and the turning's too heathen divinities. It is this to recognize into the context clearly.

However, it also tells us that we are ALL sinners, that God loves all of us, and wishes us to show that love. I will treat gay people absolutely no differently to any other person. The couple living down the road who is not married is in as much violation of scripture as the gay couple.

I agree with you: Also homosexuals are sinners. But not because they are homosexual; but because they do things (or do not work), what God had said.

But regardless of how I treat them, or how I show Jesus' love to them...I cannot make their behaviour NOT a sin...to do that, would be to change scripture. Just as I do not make light of my own sins...to do so would to be making light of Christ's atoning work on the cross, and the freedom he bought for me.

What is a sin? The dictionary says ( to it I relate me to a German dictionary:

The conscious decision against the will of God and the life path planned by God

So if somebody feels homosexually from birth on, I then ask me the question, whether it then is not part of the plan of God, that this man lives homosexually.
There are so many Christians who are homosexual. Think you it is their "free choice to be raped and murdered, offended constantly or beaten to death? Or commited suicide? These people suffer! Not at the homosexuality but at this that families and churches exclude them. Would Jesus ostracize these people?

NO

 

[brightmorningstar]

Winnetou,

You claim that the Bible says it so. I claim the opposite.

So what? The Bible says what it says, I can read and I can see your denial.

You have only the Bible and your faith as a witness. I have the Bible as my witnesses; my faith and many scientific research results worldwide.

No you do not have the Bible as you have lied about what it says. And I have many scientific studies worldwide to show yours are poor.

Who of both of us has well the better foundation? I think that it is me!

On the contrary, it is obviously me, I have what the Bible says and scientific research and you only have scientific research.

If it is that way for it, I then wonder why you and others put so much value on Leviticus and the law of Mose?

We dont, though you have just done so.

And why other parts of the Mosaic law is not demanded with the same doggedness like the ban on the homosexuality?

You clearly don’t know core Christian faith. Christ fulfilled the law, and did so in various ways as you have been shown.
If your religion still thinks its about which OT law to obey, do you put to death men who lie with men instead of women (Lev 20:13) and love your neighbour as yourself (Lev 19:18) or neither? Which? Or do you pick and choose?
Now you are still lying about the word of God. Even when you try and dispute the word natural it still reads without the word natural...
27 In the same way the men also abandoned .. relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
So we see men who abandon relations with women and commit indecent acts with men are in perversion. I prefer error rather than perversion for the best translation.

For heavens sake; I slowly get too silly. I have explained to you what these verses mean

No you have explained to me what you would like them to mean but they cant fit what you say. You have added words that aren’t there and which are cultural concepts that dont even apply.

You can apparently or do not want to understand. I have seldom experienced something stubborn like this! Does it hurt very much actually?

Oh come on. This is reality. Youa re entitled to believe it, but denying it as you are doing is dishonest.
So what you are doing with the passage, is exchanging the truth of God for a lie, and worshipping homosexuality which is created as an idol. The Bible says it is a lie, you dont believe that either.

My Goddess (or is it Goodness?), this is sick !!!! Is really to ignorance and stupidity not to outbid to think I would worship homosexuality.

Tough. I can read, that is what the passage says.
Homosexual love relations are paganism. No such thing to God. False teachers introduce heresey (2 Peter 2) The Bible shows such concepts are not love, but sexual immorality.

Am here I the single umptieth person with intelligence and education in the Bible?

I can read what the Bible says, you are the only one lying about it.

A simple question: Why are so many Christians homosexual or bisexual? And why hides everyone this in family and parish? Think about it!

Who said they were Christian, what about false teachers? The Bible says God created man for woman, and that same sex relations are error, regardless of what desires people have if they dont believe God’s word how can they love God?

I do not lie about the Bible

Yes you do. I can read what it says and I have given what it says. You lie about it.

I am a Christian and have my faith.

Well I dont treat you as one, and the word of God says otherwise.

PS: YOU MADE ME MAD

And? So what are you going to do to about it?

Aspen2,

I would tell them the truth.

Ok so that might be the end of the conversation.

Your scenario has never happened, by the way. And why would it?

Well it does happen rarely in everyday life, its something that usually happens on the internet. But then few homosexuals I meet are gay activists.

It means that we continue to love them despite our disagreement.

The Bible says we are to love them as pagans.

Exactly!

So what is the definitio0n of belief and unbelief?

Yes! Belief in the Bible is different than belief in God, due to the fact that the Bible is not God!

No, the Bible is God’s testimony, if one doesn’t believe His testimony then one doesn’t believe in Him.

Wow - what a downer....

Sorry but I pointed out in the post that Jesus sent the rich man away and your response implied nothing in the post was correct.

I really think you would love it if you could correctly label me as a nonbeliever - it would make your narrowminded view of the world so much more consistent. The bane of every fundy is cognitive dissidence.

You mean you would love it or you wouldn’t have mentioned it, I am referring to the Biblical testimony.

Not at all –

Ok but your response did, you dismissed my post which had Biblical truths.

Winnetou is not claiming to be a teacher - he/she is not teaching anything - opinion is not teaching.

Well yes he/she is, thast exactly what what he/she is doing. But I was talking about Winnetou’s unbelief and denial.

I think you are judgmental.

I think you are as the Bible I cited wasnt written by me.

What is the difference between loving a pagan and loving a Christian?

One is a pagan and doesnt believe and the other is a Christian who does believe.

 

[Winnetou]

Brighmorningstar, I wonder meanwhile whether you think that only your interpretation of biblical texts counts. I can enlighten you, it is not! Do the names Berger, Küng, Drewermann and Scoggs tell you anything? All of them are experts in the biblical texts and all of them agree to my technical interpretation. You have nothing apart from the not proved assertion that I would lie. This is cheap and miserable from you.

 

[Foreigner]

Winnetou, you have already been refuted. Big time.
Why exactly do you still continue with this tripe?

 

[dragonfly]

Hello Winnetou,

Paul expressed God's intention through Christ, in these verses:

Ephesians 5:Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The writer to the Hebrews, chapter 1, covers another very important aspect of who Jesus Christ is:

1 - 3 God, who at sundry times and in diverse manners spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Colossians 1:9 - end)

In another place, the writer declares: Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

John 1 declares: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not... 9 [That] was the true Light, which lights every man that comes into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


I have quoted those verses because they bring to attention the power of God's word. Our universe is upheld by His word continuously. Any idea that God's word is not important to God, and therefore it needn't be important to us, is fiction. God's word is vital for our next breath.

If God's word could be unimportant, then Jesus Christ would not have had to die, because it would not have mattered to God whether we could be reconciled to Him, or not. But He cares to have fellowship with people, and therefore He made a way for people to be in fellowship with Him. His declarations about the sin, and sins, are all true. We would be eternally dead (after we died) unless we had turned to Jesus Christ for salvation. And not only turned to Him once, but continued in fellowship with Him, being changed by Him (2 Cor 3:18) as He works in us according to His purposes.

Philippians 2:9 - 16 Wherefore God also has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: that ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.







Very many people who come to Jesus Christ for salvation, as a result of being saved, have to learn to resist the temptations of sexual relationships which God does not approve. For others, sex may not be a temptation. Whatever the temptation - whatever the weakness - the gospel proclaims that through Christ we can become overcomers in fact.

 

[Rach1370]

Researches been different American universities (among other things the one of Georgia from the year 1996), prove; that those who most speak against homosexuality often have homosexual feelings by themselves. Only men were examined. Women did not happen like so often.
But also women feel unwell if they know that her best friend is a lesbian. The fear of being seduced or raped by her (an irrational fear) has to be watched particularly with religious women (as said by a study of the Berlin Humboldt - university from the year 2001).

Proof? Sorry, no. You show me one scientist who says one thing, and I'll show you another who says the opposite. Just because someone says something prefaced by "research has shown", does not make them right. And that my friend, is simple fact....and it's not research that has shown it...it's life and the number of times 'research' and 'theories' have been proven wrong.
Besides, when it all comes down to it, I'm not going to believe 'science' over scripture. People make mistakes, God never does.

Goddess (Goodness?)throw brain down. Much of this is just needed here!
But fun aside.
To himself the homosexuality is a sin that the Bible just does not say! Take Leviticus or Romans or 1st Cor. or 1st Timothy, homosexuality is not condemned at himself in any verse from the Bible.
It is always connected (as a consequence of) the withdrawal from God and the turning's too heathen divinities. It is this to recognize into the context clearly.

It's goodness! just so you know! Goddess is a female deity!

Actually yes, the bible does say that homosexuality is a sin...several times!

the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, (1 Timothy 1:10)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

Now, you may say that the translation of the word 'homosexual' has been done wrong...that that word actually means something else. But we see that it does, in fact, mean 'sodomite':


homosexuality
Transliteration: arsenokoitēs
Phonetic Pronunciation:ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace
Definition:
from <G730> (arrhen) and <G2845> (koite); a sodomite :- abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

Greek Word: ἀρσενοκοίτης
Root: from <G730> and <G2845>
Part of Speech: noun masculine

Even if we take away that particular word, the intent in scripture is absolutely clear:

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
(Leviticus 18:22 ESV)

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13 ESV)

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
(Romans 1:26-27 ESV)

I agree with you: Also homosexuals are sinners. But not because they are homosexual; but because they do things (or do not work), what God had said.

Here is where you are really tripping up. The 'things' that they are doing are what God has said NOT to do. Remember the verse above:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

This is a list of sins...the actions of the unrighteous. Now, the homosexuals are not made any more or less sinful than any of the others. But what, do you think, is one of the essential outcomes of being 'sanctified and justified' by Jesus? Do you think that the saved thief still steals? Does the saved adulterer keep cheating on his wife? If they keep on with their sinful actions, do we think them truly regenerated? No. God loves gay people as much as every other sinner. Jesus died for them as much as for us. But the simple fact is, the bible calls homosexuality a sin, and those truly saved need to put that sin to death.

What is a sin? The dictionary says ( to it I relate me to a German dictionary:

The conscious decision against the will of God and the life path planned by God

So if somebody feels homosexually from birth on, I then ask me the question, whether it then is not part of the plan of God, that this man lives homosexually.

This is perhaps the worst excuse of sin ever! Every single person is born a sinner. We are not born pure and become a sinner as we get older. So some people may be born with the predisposition to be homosexual, but how is that different to the people who are born predisposed to be proud, arrogant, bossy, mean or idolaters? There is no difference....they are all sins that enslave us, all sins that make us realise that we need to turn to Jesus to be set free. Just because we are born a certain way, does not mean God wants us to live like that...to believe that, is to deny pretty much all of the bible, and Jesus' death on the cross.

There are so many Christians who are homosexual. Think you it is their "free choice to be raped and murdered, offended constantly or beaten to death? Or commited suicide? These people suffer! Not at the homosexuality but at this that families and churches exclude them. Would Jesus ostracize these people?

NO

There are many 'Christians' trying to 'live for God' while justifying their own sinful lifestyles. One must beg the question if they are saved at all. There are many people who love Christ who have homosexual desires, who by the grace of God are living without that kind of relationship in their lives. These people are undoubtedly saved, as we know that a sinner can only do this kind of thing with the help and power of the Holy Spirit. I know this in my own life...not with those particular desires, but with other sins I struggle with.

Do any of these people deserve to be 'beaten, raped or murdered'? Of course not! No way! Any 'Christian' who treats anyone this way, is not a true Christian. Everyone deserves simple respect, if nothing else. Anyone who is still living in their sins, is to be loved and treated well by us. These people are lost and blind...they desperately need the love of Jesus.

See, here's the real point. God does not command us away from 'sin' because he's a mean tyrant who want to steal our joy. God knows that our greatest joy and happiness will come from him...in loving him and following him. When he tells us to stop our sin, he is doing it because it will ultimately lead us to greater joy. This is what we need to keep in mind when we are talking to people lost in their sins. We don't want to be mean, we want to encourage them to walk towards joy and freedom! We tell ourselves the very same thing every day as we battle with our own sins!

 

[brightmorningstar]

Winnetou,

Brighmorningstar, I wonder meanwhile whether you think that only your interpretation of biblical texts counts. I can enlighten you, it is not!

How could that even be so when others here share the same view as me? Come on. Its not interpretation, one cant interpret Biblical texts by adding things so as to give the meaning that is wanted. That is not interpretation. When it is opposite to all the Bible says in context, then it is denial and unbelief.

Do the names Berger, Küng, Drewermann and Scoggs tell you anything? All of them are experts in the biblical texts and all of them agree to my technical interpretation. You have nothing apart from the not proved assertion that I would lie. This is cheap and miserable from you.

Did you mean Robin Scroggs? Scroggs has been refuted completely.... and Mcneil and Boswell, and Wink etc.

 

[Winnetou]

Did you mean Robin Scroggs? Scroggs has been refuted completely...

I meant exactly this one! I would like to check this. But even if you are right; it still remains another at least 50 experts of the Bible who support my point of view.

 

[Foreigner]

I meant exactly this one! I would like to check this. But even if you are right; it still remains another at least 50 experts of the Bible who support my point of view.

-- And there are 500 experts able to show that you are wrong.
Please get a clue.