'Because God said so!'

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

m...you hardly sound 'redeemed by faith' - on the contrary, you sound terrified;why?

Well to many I sound redeemed by faith. But the test is the word of the one who has redeemed me by faith. It was His Biblical testimony that Winnetou was lying about.

 

[Winnetou]

Modern Bible scientists are mistaken. Theologians are mistaken. Parish priests are mistaken. All of them are mistaken if they say that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. These people have studied the Bible. They have had studied ancient languages. But all of them are mistaken! Only Brightmorningstar is not mistaken! He has leased the truth. Using proverb from Germany: "Nobody is perfect, except me ". It would be to the laugh if it would not to be cry. I pray for you so that you attain wisdom and sympathy.

aspen2,
Well to many I sound redeemed by faith. But the test is the word of the one who has redeemed me by faith. It was His Biblical testimony that Winnetou was lying about.

I don't lie about the scriptures. I love the Bible too much. But you and I have a different knowing stand and different intelligence. And I have read much and continued my education so unlike you.

 

[HammerStone]

Aspen, I think you're running into the quandry of faith.

At the end of the day, all of our beliefs(and I'd argue all of our knowledge) springs from some form of presuppositionalism. In the case of faith, we presuppose God exists, is Almighty, and gave us the Bible. Thus, it really does boil down to because God said so. I don't think that divorces us from reasoning about God and seeing God's heart on matters, for lack of a better term. It simply means that we accept God (and what he does) as a token of faith, ultimately.

However, I'd argue that the secularist does much the same. At the end of the day, a logical argument is based on the presupposition that the employed "logic" is logical. We've developed methods and structures for this logic, but we don't necessarily know that it's valid.

I was reading an article yesterday from the Wesleyian Classical-Arminian perspective. It lamented how so many young minds seem to go into the faith and run aground on higher criticism of the Bible. I think if you seek you reason faith out based on logical postulations, you're going to come to a brick wall. At best, you end up with an empty shell of faith. It's easy to come to a tough spot and not know an answer.

Many secularists would argue that this is dumb, bad logic, or superstition, but if you take that line of thinking, then what are you saying about life? We do illogical things all the time, yet they make perfect sense to us.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, I think you're running into the quandry of faith.

At the end of the day, all of our beliefs(and I'd argue all of our knowledge) springs from some form of presuppositionalism. In the case of faith, we presuppose God exists, is Almighty, and gave us the Bible. Thus, it really does boil down to because God said so. I don't think that divorces us from reasoning about God and seeing God's heart on matters, for lack of a better term. It simply means that we accept God (and what he does) as a token of faith, ultimately.

However, I'd argue that the secularist does much the same. At the end of the day, a logical argument is based on the presupposition that the employed "logic" is logical. We've developed methods and structures for this logic, but we don't necessarily know that it's valid.

I was reading an article yesterday from the Wesleyian Classical-Arminian perspective. It lamented how so many young minds seem to go into the faith and run aground on higher criticism of the Bible. I think if you seek you reason faith out based on logical postulations, you're going to come to a brick wall. At best, you end up with an empty shell of faith. It's easy to come to a tough spot and not know an answer.

Many secularists would argue that this is dumb, bad logic, or superstition, but if you take that line of thinking, then what are you saying about life? We do illogical things all the time, yet they make perfect sense to us.

Exactly. Like Kierkegaard - no more is required than a leap of faith.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Winnetou,
Most of the Christians in the world and the major church denominations will tell you that the Bible condemns homosexual practice. I can read, so don’t try the tactic of trying to tell everyone in a majority that they have their own opinion.
Modern theologians, experts in ancient Hebrew and Greek have translated the Bible consistently over the centuries.
There are also scholars who simply do not like or want what the Bible says on homosexual relations so they try and make out they know better.

I don't lie about the scriptures.

You have done. The Bible doesn’t attribute men who abandon the natural use of women and commit indecent acts with other men to shrine prostitutes, it attributes such men to being unbelievers.
What is the definition of lying? Is lying a sin?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brightmorningstar,

The Bible says nothing about shrine prostitution

I think this is implied in the first verses of Leviticus 18.

‘Homosexual love’ is not God’s love, its something else the Bible doesn’t say.

It says this: Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections...'

affections
New Testament Greek Definition:
3806 pathos {path'-os}
from the alternate of 3958; TDNT - 5:926,798; n n
AV - inordinate affection 1, affection 1, lust 1; 3
1) whatever befalls one, whether it be sad or joyous
1a) spec. a calamity, mishap, evil, affliction
2) a feeling which the mind suffers
2a) an affliction of the mind, emotion, passion
2b) passionate deed
2c) used by the Greeks in either a good or bad sense
2d) in the NT in a bad sense, depraved passion, vile passions
For Synonyms see entry 5845



Hi Winnetou,

I read in the Internet a wonderful short story written by a Christian once years ago. It was called "meeting in the office". Into this it was about a young man, a Christian, who hates his colleague, a Wicca. He prayed to God around inspiration one evening. God appeared to him and showed him different cultures of the past and presence. And he was admired as a God everywhere. No matter whether as a human or an animal, as a woman or a man. He understood at the end of the dream how full of prejudice he was to his colleague and apologized to her.

I believe the young man misunderstood the dream. If he was a Christian (if ti's a true story), then he should have compared the dream with scripture to see how scripture declares God has revealed Himself to mankind. Primarily, this is through creation. In Romans 1 Paul specifically states:

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:

Being and realizing homosexually; has nothing to do with sin.

God disagrees:

Leviticus 18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I [am] the LORD your God....

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you. 29For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people. 30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that [ye] commit not [any one] of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I [am] the LORD your God.

Please show the verses to which you referred when you said:

and the averting of God always in the NT. And it also gives, this will surprise you perhaps, also homosexual Christians who take seriously their faith.

Many thanks.

 

[aspen]

'natural use of women' ........yikes

umm....your 'natural' charm is showing

 

[Winnetou]

@brightmorningstar
Most of the Christians in the world and the major church denominations will tell you that the Bible condemns homosexual practice. I can read, so don’t try the tactic of trying to tell everyone in a majority that they have their own opinion

These are mostly people who have not really studied the Bible. They pick a verse out; and e.g. claim that "God" condemns homosexuality. Would these people read the whole chapter or several chapters to include the textual connection; would these people perhaps come to another conclusion.
If you adhere to the Holiness Code of the old testament so much, then you must today:

Not eating pork
Not wearing any clothes with mixed fibers
Not playing football (because the ball is made with pig leather)
No eating of shrimps
Kill desecrators of the Sabbath and adulterers
Being able to sell your daughter

Everything was forbidden or permitted according to the Mosaic law. Nobody holds on to it today. So and this is also right! Because by Jesus Christ the law of Mose became fullfill

@brightmorningstar
Modern theologians, experts in ancient Hebrew and Greek have translated the Bible consistently over the centuries.
There are also scholars who simply do not like or want what the Bible says on homosexual relations so they try and make out they know better.

For heaven's sake, you have not understood the verses of Paul in Romans. This "natural" and "unnatural" does not think what we understand by it what something is normal or abnormal, ; but something completely different. I have tried to make it understandable for you. But either my English is not sufficient; or you are not ready to accept the facts.

@brightmorningstar
What is the definition of lying? Is lying a sin?

A lie is defined so in my words:
However, I know the facts, and claims the opposite. For which reasons also always.
And yes, this is a sin.
But I have mentioned the facts. Have shown to you and others what the Bible really says to the homosexuality topic. Have the connection between the condemnation of homosexual actions and temple prostitution established which the Bible has established in her context itself.
Therfore I have had not lied!

'natural use of women' ........yikes

umm....your 'natural' charm is showing

If Brightmorningstar would read the whole Chapter one in Romans, he might would better understand, what Paul want to tell us.

 

[Rach1370]

These are mostly people who have not really studied the Bible. They pick a verse out; and e.g. claim that "God" condemns homosexuality. Would these people read the whole chapter or several chapters to include the textual connection; would these people perhaps come to another conclusion.

I understand that people believe that the bible condemning homosexuality is just a mistranslation of words and intent. I disagree...I think the bible spells it out fairly clearly. But let's forget that just for now...and ask another question. Does the bible, anywhere, support a sexual union or marriage that is not between one man and one woman? We know that when God instigated marriage in the beginning it was between one man and one woman...we know Christ confirmed that, we know Paul confirmed it. We know that Abraham made a serious mess out of sleeping with someone other than his wife...ditto David and Solomon. We also know that regardless of what word you want to use for 'homosexual', there is a clear picture of the practices of Sodom and Gomorrah. All the men gathered, demanding Lot bring out his 'visitors'...men...so that the townsmen could have sex with them. God fire-bombed them.

So, when you take a step back, you have this: Despite what 'word' may be used for 'homosexual', the bible is pretty clear...'a man should not lie with a man as he does with a woman'...pretty clear. If you add that clear intent to the fact that no where does scripture support a homosexual union, and I'm sorry...there is absolutely nothing you can say that changes the fact that the bible is clear...homosexuality is a sin. Full stop, then end. Do I believe that homosexuality is a 'bigger' sin than any other sin? No...but it's still a sin.

 

[Kidron]

If this is the real answer to the tough questions in life - why not just say it? Why make up all kinds of arguments justifying why God said so or even think anymore about the issue.

After talking about the homosexual issue for 28 pages - I have discovered that there is no reason why God hates homosexuality for Christians - none. The answer is simply 'Because God said so!'. Yet, the Christians I have talked to about this issue feel the need to explain the practical reasons for resisting homosexuality. Not sure why....

The reason God abhors homosexual sex is for a few reasons..

First, God has this idea that the species, the human species, needs to "replenish", according to Gen 1, and Homosexual sex, cant do this.
And this is because homosexual sex is not natural.
Its unnatural.
Same gender sexual lifestyle choice, cannot reproduce the species.
They can only adopt.

And 2nd, God maintains this aspect, its called "holiness", and for a good reason, that im certain you'll never comprehend Aspen2, "gay sex" as viewed by God, is the result of perverted inclinations that began as temptations and resulted in a lifestyle.
See, politically corrected thinkers will argue all day about a "possible gene", or "innate", or "environment" or "its natural for them", however God does not base his bottom line on a politically corrected point of view.
He sees the sexual deviant who has deviated from what he calls the "natural use of the woman", in Romans 1, when referring to men on men copulation,....God sees them as exiting in a "state of perversion" which is above and beyond what he will tolerate before the Cross, and after the Cross, because of Grace, he offers his redemption to all.
Sodom and Gomorrah is a real place.
Its been discovered.
The ashes that cover the area are deep.
It really happened.
I live a few hours drive from the place.
Really.



K

 

[brightmorningstar]

[sup]Aspen2[/sup]​

[sup]

'natural use of women' ........yikes

umm....your 'natural' charm is showing

Yikes, [/sup]
[sup]Its God’s word you are critcising. ..[/sup]
[sup]Here is the ASV 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.[/sup]
[sup]Also try KJV, NKJV, New Life, Young’s Literal. [/sup]
[sup]You are showing your unbelief again.[/sup]
[sup]As opposed to a man inserting his penis up another mans’ anus? Yikes. [/sup]

Winnetou,

We can be corrected by the scripture (ie all scripture is .. useful for correcting rebuking and teaching .. to equip for every good work) or I can cast pearls before swine.​

These are mostly people who have not really studied the Bible.

No these are Christians who have studied the Bible, experts and believers.

They pick a verse out; and e.g. claim that "God" condemns homosexuality.

The Bible says men who lie with men as with women are in error, men who abandon the natural use of women and commit indecent acts with men are in error. (Lev 18, 20, Romans 1) Do your homosexuals do that? If so the act is condemned. In that respect God condemns homosexuality. Unless you think its heterosexuality?
The Biblical testimony also excludes same sex relations as in God’s creation purpose for man and woman (Genesis 2, Matthew 18, Mark 10, Eph 5 etc) and Christ’s teaching also excludes any sexual relations outside faithful man/woman (1 Cor 7)
What unbelievers and gay activists do is pick out the verses and deny them.

Would these people read the whole chapter or several chapters to include the textual connection; would these people perhaps come to another conclusion.

They cant come to any other conclusion, a 30mph speed limit sign means 30mph. One notes the context is that the Bible specifically tells the people of God, the believers that it is sin where their cultures or surrounding nations practice these things.

If you adhere to the Holiness Code of the old testament so much, then you must today:

I don’t, I follow Christ who is the way the truth and the life. Christ has fulfilled the law and prophets.
So for your education.

Not eating pork

In covenant with Christ all food is clean. Read Mark 7, Romans 14, Acts 10 & 11.

Not wearing any clothes with mixed fibers

see Matthew 6

Not playing football (because the ball is made with pig leather)

see above

No eating of shrimps

see above

Kill desecrators of the Sabbath and adulterers

Do not resist. Matthew 5 Luke 6, love even enemies.

Being able to sell your daughter

1 Tim 1

So do you keep the OT law, do you
Put to death the man who lies with a man as with a woman (Lev 20:13)
Love your neigbour as yourself (Lev 19:18)
Both or neither?
Next time you play Devil’s advocate realise it is the devil you are being influenced by

For heaven's sake,

Well quite

you have not understood the verses of Paul in Romans. This "natural" and "unnatural" does not think what we understand by it what something is normal or abnormal, ; but something completely different. I have tried to make it understandable for you. But either my English is not sufficient; or you are not ready to accept the facts.

No, you have denied what it says. This passage starts by affirming what God has created, you will see throughout the NT Christ’s affirmation of God creating woman to be in union with man (ie Gen 2) The natural use is of woman by man, as it says. This condemns homosexual practice, as with Leviticus 18 an 20, Genesis 19, 1 Cor 5-7 etc. which is why you dont want to accept what it says. The feelings of people with same sex attraction is abnormal, it is evident from anatomy and its function.
And I see no mention of shrine prostitute that you added. Dont try and claim I am misunderstanding whilst you lie about what it says.

If Brightmorningstar would read the whole Chapter one in Romans, he might would better understand, what Paul want to tell us.

I have and explained it to you but you don’t love God’s word you love homosexual practice more.
For your education:
The epistles to the church in Rome was at a time when the original mainly Jewish believers had been driven out by the Roman authorities and the church had become exclusively Gentile. Then for commercial reasons Jews were encouraged back and came and tensions started between the Gentile and Jewish believers.
After the introduction to the church, Romans 1:18 to the end of the chapter is a warning of what Gentile people do in licence, the sins they get seduced by. Romans 2 addressed the Jewish believers in their legalism, as they knew from the law the sins mentioned in Romans 1which they wanted to impose.
It is not even necessarily anything to do with shrine or temple prostitution, the NT condemnations of homosexual practice are to the churches in the Roman and Greek cultures that practiced homosexuality as part of the culture.

I can read what the Bible says, even without all the blessing of study and education, to see you are lying about what it says. I hope this has been helpful to you to conform your mind to that of Christ and to equip for good works.
Blessings

 

[dragonfly]

Hello Winnetou,

If Brightmorningstar would read the whole Chapter one in Romans, he might would better understand, what Paul want to tell us.

I am interested to read the New Testament verses which you believe support homosexual activity between Christians. You can use this link to search for and copy them into the reply pane. www.olivetree.com/bible/index_legacy_bible_search.php

Many thanks.

 

[aspen]

Right, I forgot.......we are supposed to cherish all archaic phraseology, as long as it is found in the Bible......

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

I don't know if your comment: 'Right, I forgot.......we are supposed to cherish all archaic phraseology, as long as it is found in the Bible...... ' was directed at the link I offered, but if you go there, you will find at least six translations in non-'archaic' English.

Winnetou's allusions to scripture ought to be backed up by quoting the verses which support the case being made, so that the rest of us don't have to guess. So far, Romans 1 has been mentioned, but the implication is that the NT in general supports Christians practising homosexual acts. Whereas Romans 1 most specifically shows the spiritual progression which begins by resisting truth, and ends up in idolatry.

Next, Paul is swift to point out that God's goodness draws men and women to repentance from this kind and all other sins.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Right, I forgot.......we are supposed to cherish all archaic phraseology, as long as it is found in the Bible......

Which means what? Give an example.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,

I don't know if your comment: 'Right, I forgot.......we are supposed to cherish all archaic phraseology, as long as it is found in the Bible...... ' was directed at the link I offered, but if you go there, you will find at least six translations in non-'archaic' English.

Winnetou's allusions to scripture ought to be backed up by quoting the verses which support the case being made, so that the rest of us don't have to guess. So far, Romans 1 has been mentioned, but the implication is that the NT in general supports Christians practising homosexual acts. Whereas Romans 1 most specifically shows the spiritual progression which begins by resisting truth, and ends up in idolatry.

Next, Paul is swift to point out that God's goodness draws men and women to repentance from this kind and all other sins.

my last post was in response to a 'natural use of women'

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

Thanks for the clarification.

Blessings.

 

[brightmorningstar]

my last post was in response to a 'natural use of women'

Ah ok. well one doesn't have to use that, use another translation; as long as one knows what it is saying and meaning.
But Winnetou is was adding his/her own words for his/her own agenda

 

[aspen]

Ah ok. well one doesn't have to use that, use another translation; as long as one knows what it is saying and meaning.
But Winnetou is was adding his/her own words for his/her own agenda

I understand what you saying - i agree

 

[Winnetou]

Unfortunately, I do not have much time today since I must go at work in a couple of minutes. I have read your posts and I have noticed something. Before I tell this to you, I would like to apologize for my bad English.
My facts simply were ignored. No matter whatever I wrote, it was answered with "the Bible says it so". But the Bible "does not" say it so as all of you think.
I have certain feelings of the same sex but I have never realized it because I thought at that time that God would have forbidden it. I see more clearly now. And I understand that the Bible was abused by many leaders in a Christian church. So how they abused the Bible in the past to justify slavery and sexism.
I recognize that I must lead my own life. I may love another person of same gender and can nevertheless be a good Christian at the same time. And I see that this forum apparently is not the right place for me. I wish you everything all best and God's blessing. But I leave the forum, and come back, if at all, only sporadic