Before the flood is actually "after"

[rebuilder 454]

In mat 24 we see Jesus declaring his coming Is compared to The days before the flood.
I have noticed this in the postrib rapture doctrine seem to be forbidden from that verse.
My question is , does "before" mean " before" ?
Was Noah and Jesus actually trying to say "after" the judgement?

 

[Randy Kluth]

In mat 24 we see Jesus declaring his coming Is compared to The days before the flood.
I have noticed this in the postrib rapture doctrine seem to be forbidden from that verse.
My question is , does "before" mean " before" ?
Was Noah and Jesus actually trying to say "after" the judgement?

Your question is not clear enough for me. The account of the Olivet Discourse is, however, clear enough for me. I don't see the problem? Jesus indicated certain conditions would exist before he comes in glory. That would consist of the Jewish Diaspora, as well as world hostility towards Christianity.

In other words, just as in the Flood of Noah, civilization would be despicably corrupt. Judgment would arrive at the point where Christ is prepared to come again, even though Divine Judgment has been happening, in some form, all down through the age.

The indicators were clear in Jesus' message. Israel had become totally perverse. They had fallen away from the Law and had rejected their Messiah. The time for their judgment had come, and within a single generation of Christ's earthly ministry Jerusalem would be attacked and defeated. The temple worship would be decimated.

It is in this context that Jesus describes his 2nd Coming. Just as Israel had become despicably corrupt, so the whole world would become despicably corrupt. It would be just like the time before the Flood. As judgment came to Israel in 70 AD, so judgment would come to the whole world.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your question is not clear enough for me. The account of the Olivet Discourse is, however, clear enough for me. I don't see the problem? Jesus indicated certain conditions would exist before he comes in glory. That would consist of the Jewish Diaspora, as well as world hostility towards Christianity.

In other words, just as in the Flood of Noah, civilization would be despicably corrupt. Judgment would arrive at the point where Christ is prepared to come again, even though Divine Judgment has been happening, in some form, all down through the age.

The indicators were clear in Jesus' message. Israel had become totally perverse. They had fallen away from the Law and had rejected their Messiah. The time for their judgment had come, and within a single generation of Christ's earthly ministry Jerusalem would be attacked and defeated. The temple worship would be decimated.

It is in this context that Jesus describes his 2nd Coming. Just as Israel had become despicably corrupt, so the whole world would become despicably corrupt. It would be just like the time before the Flood. As judgment came to Israel in 70 AD, so judgment would come to the whole world.

There was no judgement before the flood.
The flood was judgement.
Jesus gave a setting of a gathering during a time of buying and selling, marrying and giving in marriage, Commerce, and peacetime normal life. That is the setting of Before the Flood.
That is the setting Jesus gave for that Gathering. Now I know that is extremely bothersome for certain doctrines.
That "before the flood" dynamic is extremely hurtful to certain doctrines.
That's why it cannot be put on the table. It literally has to be removed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

before the flood return.
The forbidden setting
Lol

 

[Randy Kluth]

There was no judgement before the flood.

The condemnation of humanity to death was a "judgment" from God. Mankind has been under judgment ever since, except that those who have chosen Christ have had their sins atoned for, and they may rise up in the resurrection to eternal life and fellowship with God.

The flood was judgement.

"Judgment" was also God casting Adam and Eve out of the garden of paradise, Eden. It was causing women to struggle in pregnancy and for men to struggle at work. It was also a judgment against Satan for having caused this mess to start with.

Final judgment awaits Christ's Return.

Jesus gave a setting of a gathering during a time of buying and selling, marrying and giving in marriage, Commerce, and peacetime normal life. That is the setting of Before the Flood.

Where do you see a gathering *before judgment* in either case, whether the Flood or the 2nd Coming? Noah gathered his family together to enter the ark--is that what you're talking about?

That is not the equivalent of being gathered at the Coming of Christ! Jesus was *not* comparing the gathering of his saints to Noah gathering his family into the ark!

Rather, Jesus was comparing the warning to the world concerning its sins just prior to the Flood. That is the same place the Church finds itself in the NT era, warning the world of coming judgment--often with little response.

 

[Keraz]

As it was in the Days of Noah:

1 Thessalonians 5:3-5 You friends, are not in the dark, that Day will not come upon you like a thief. You are children of the Light, of the day. We do not belong to night and darkness. But while they are saying: all is peaceful, all secure; then destruction is upon them, suddenly as the pangs that come upon a woman in childbirth and there will be no escape.

‘You My friends’ - Those who love Him and keep His commands.
John 15:14-15 You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is about, I call you friends because I have disclosed to you everything that I heard from the Father.

‘that Day’- Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry. He stopped at ‘and a Day of vengeance of our God’. That therefore, must be the next prophesied event.
It is wrong to think ‘that Day’ is the Return of Jesus in His glory, for these main reasons;

1/ The situation will hardly be: ‘all is peaceful’, at the end of the Tribulation and with the Anti Christ’s army coming to attack Jerusalem!
2/ The Return will not come ‘as a thief’, that is unexpectedly, because as anyone with a Bible can read that after the AC places his image in the Temple, it will be 1260 days, then the Return.
3/ As described to us in many prophecies, the Day of wrath is a worldwide event, on all nations:

Zephaniah 1:7 Keep silent in the presence of the Lord, for the Day of the Lord is near, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice and set apart those His has invited.
Isaiah 13:9 The Day of the Lord is coming, that cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to a desolation and to destroy the wicked there.
Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all the proud evildoers will be as stubble, that Day will set them ablaze leaving them neither root nor branch.
Revelation 6:17 For the great Day of their wrath has come and who can stand?

‘like a thief’- That is, unexpectedly to all the godless peoples and to those who have ignored or failed to understand the prophetic warnings.
Revelation 3:3 If you do not wake up, you will not know the moment of My coming.
Revelation 16:15 See: I am coming unexpectedly. Happy is the one who stays awake and ready.
Isaiah 46:10 From the beginning I reveal the end, from ancient times what is yet to be.

‘children of the light’-
1 Thess. 5:8 We who belong in the light, must keep prepared and armed with salvation.
Isaiah 42:6 I have formed and destined you to be a light to the nations.....

‘they say; all is peaceful, all secure’- The enemy nations prepare a surprise attack on Israel.
Micah 4:12 They do not understand God’s purposes, they are gathered like sheaves on the threshing floor.
Matthew 24:37-44 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. Then they ate, drank and married right up to the day Noah went into the ark. They knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be when the Son of Man comes. Be ready, therefore, lest He comes when you are unprepared.

‘suddenly destruction is upon them’- This is the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible and accurately described as a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26
Isaiah 47:8-11 Listen to this, you lovers of luxury, living carefree and thinking you will never be in mourning. Suddenly, in a single Day disaster will come upon you.
Jeremiah 25:32-33 The Lord says: Ruin spreads from nation to nation. A mighty tempest blows up and those whom the Lord has slain on that Day will lie scattered all over the world.

‘there will be no escape’-Everyone will be affected, this Day will come upon everyone. Luke 21:35
Romans 2:3 Do you imagine that you can escape the judgement of God?
Isaiah 2:19 They will creep into caves to hide when the Lord strikes the world with terror.
Revelation 6:16-17 They called out: Hide us from the wrath of God and the Lamb’.
Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

 

[rebuilder 454]

As it was in the Days of Noah:

1 Thessalonians 5:3-5 You friends, are not in the dark, that Day will not come upon you like a thief. You are children of the Light, of the day. We do not belong to night and darkness. But while they are saying: all is peaceful, all secure; then destruction is upon them, suddenly as the pangs that come upon a woman in childbirth and there will be no escape.

‘You My friends’ - Those who love Him and keep His commands.
John 15:14-15 You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is about, I call you friends because I have disclosed to you everything that I heard from the Father.

‘that Day’- Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry. He stopped at ‘and a Day of vengeance of our God’. That therefore, must be the next prophesied event.
It is wrong to think ‘that Day’ is the Return of Jesus in His glory, for these main reasons;

1/ The situation will hardly be: ‘all is peaceful’, at the end of the Tribulation and with the Anti Christ’s army coming to attack Jerusalem!
2/ The Return will not come ‘as a thief’, that is unexpectedly, because as anyone with a Bible can read that after the AC places his image in the Temple, it will be 1260 days, then the Return.
3/ As described to us in many prophecies, the Day of wrath is a worldwide event, on all nations:

Zephaniah 1:7 Keep silent in the presence of the Lord, for the Day of the Lord is near, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice and set apart those His has invited.
Isaiah 13:9 The Day of the Lord is coming, that cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, to reduce the earth to a desolation and to destroy the wicked there.
Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all the proud evildoers will be as stubble, that Day will set them ablaze leaving them neither root nor branch.
Revelation 6:17 For the great Day of their wrath has come and who can stand?

‘like a thief’- That is, unexpectedly to all the godless peoples and to those who have ignored or failed to understand the prophetic warnings.
Revelation 3:3 If you do not wake up, you will not know the moment of My coming.
Revelation 16:15 See: I am coming unexpectedly. Happy is the one who stays awake and ready.
Isaiah 46:10 From the beginning I reveal the end, from ancient times what is yet to be.

‘children of the light’-
1 Thess. 5:8 We who belong in the light, must keep prepared and armed with salvation.
Isaiah 42:6 I have formed and destined you to be a light to the nations.....

‘they say; all is peaceful, all secure’- The enemy nations prepare a surprise attack on Israel.
Micah 4:12 They do not understand God’s purposes, they are gathered like sheaves on the threshing floor.
Matthew 24:37-44 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. Then they ate, drank and married right up to the day Noah went into the ark. They knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away. That is how it will be when the Son of Man comes. Be ready, therefore, lest He comes when you are unprepared.

‘suddenly destruction is upon them’- This is the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times in the Bible and accurately described as a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26
Isaiah 47:8-11 Listen to this, you lovers of luxury, living carefree and thinking you will never be in mourning. Suddenly, in a single Day disaster will come upon you.
Jeremiah 25:32-33 The Lord says: Ruin spreads from nation to nation. A mighty tempest blows up and those whom the Lord has slain on that Day will lie scattered all over the world.

‘there will be no escape’-Everyone will be affected, this Day will come upon everyone. Luke 21:35
Romans 2:3 Do you imagine that you can escape the judgement of God?
Isaiah 2:19 They will creep into caves to hide when the Lord strikes the world with terror.
Revelation 6:16-17 They called out: Hide us from the wrath of God and the Lamb’. dynamics
Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

...an attempt to water down, "before the flood"
Lol
Nice try.
Now REFRAME Lot .
JESUS USED Noah AND LOT as PREJUGEMENT dynamics depicting the rapture as pretrib
You may want it to read different, but you must change the bible.
I Post what the bible says.
It is up to doctrine followers to change it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The condemnation of humanity to death was a "judgment" from God. Mankind has been under judgment ever since, except that those who have chosen Christ have had their sins atoned for, and they may rise up in the resurrection to eternal life and fellowship with God.

"Judgment" was also God casting Adam and Eve out of the garden of paradise, Eden. It was causing women to struggle in pregnancy and for men to struggle at work. It was also a judgment against Satan for having caused this mess to start with.

Final judgment awaits Christ's Return.

Where do you see a gathering *before judgment* in either case, whether the Flood or the 2nd Coming? Noah gathered his family together to enter the ark--is that what you're talking about?

That is not the equivalent of being gathered at the Coming of Christ! Jesus was *not* comparing the gathering of his saints to Noah gathering his family into the ark!

Rather, Jesus was comparing the warning to the world concerning its sins just prior to the Flood. That is the same place the Church finds itself in the NT era, warning the world of coming judgment--often with little response.

preflood Noah is gathered into the ark... Fact
Post judgement Noah returns to earth from the heavens...Fact....hmmm exactly like the pretribbers declare
Prejudgement Lot is gathered and removed...Fact

Your model says that God removes postjudgement.
Your model is exactly backwards from Jesus's words.

 

[Randy Kluth]

preflood Noah is gathered into the ark... Fact

You are acting as if any old "fact" establishes the principle you wish to base on that fact? This has not been proven, that the fact of Noah gathering his family inside the ark *before the Flood* means that the Church will be gathered up before Armageddon!

That's like my saying, "Yesterday I came inside my house before it rained, and that proves the Church will be brought to heaven before Christ's coming in judgment." How can my coming inside before a rain relate to Christ's deliverance of the Church from judgment?

Sometimes God protects people, and at other times He causes His saints to be martyrs! Nothing is proven by those who are protected! At one point in Samson's life God protected him from judgment. At another point in Samson's life God allowed him to die a martyr.

You rightly pointed out that Jesus compared his 2nd Coming to the Flood of Noah. But you aren't showing the proper comparison that Jesus was making between the two! He did *not* speak of the gathering of Noah's family *before* the Flood as an indication God's People will be gathered to heaven *before* his Coming.

On the contrary, Jesus identified his Coming as the very event at which two things will happen simultaneously: He will come to Judge the world, and he will come to gather his people. There is no gathering *before* his Coming. There is no gathering *before* judgment.

Post judgement Noah returns to earth from the heavens...Fact....hmmm exactly like the pretribbers declare

You are building a theological system off of non-explicit statements. You should build theology based on explicit biblical statements. Does the Bible state that the Church will be gathered *before* Armageddon? No. Nowhere does the Bible state, explicitly, that the Church will be caught up to heaven *before* the 2nd Coming.

On the contrary, it is explicitly said that Jesus' 2nd Coming will be to gather his people. So his people cannot be gathered up *before* his Coming.

Furthermore, Dan 7 makes it very clear in the only history in the Bible (apart from Revelation) that details eschatological development the Son of Man will come to deliver his people from the Antichrist. The deliverance of the saints is simultaneous with the establishment of God's Kingdom when the Son of Man comes down from heaven.

2 Thes 2 makes the clear assertion that we must *not* accept any sense of the Kingdom of God's inception, nor the deliverance of the Church, until the Antichrist is actually destroyed at Christ's Coming. How you cannot see this is unfathomable to me were it not for the fact that an entire generation of Christians in the US have been influenced by John Darby, Edward Irving, and the Scofield Reference Bible.

It's time we get back to the Bible, and leave out Bible notes that contradict what the Bible actually says! What the Bible says about Noah's Flood is that this wicked world will be judged in the same way that the Flood destroyed a wicked civilization. This is all Jesus was saying, that he will come to bring about this judgment against the wicked world. His Coming is made to be simultaneous with this judgment against the world, and the gathering of the Church is made to be simultaneous with his Coming--not preliminary to it.

In other words, the account of Jesus' Coming and its comparison with the Flood aligns the gathering of the Church with the actual *Coming of Christ,* and not with some preliminary event. And the focus is on the judgment of the world at his Coming, and on the wickedness in the world preliminary to that judgment.

You are absolutely twisting the story, emphasizing things that the account did *not* emphasize or even say! Instead of emphasizing the wickedness of the world preliminary to the judgment, which actually precipitates the judgment, you are emphasizing a supposed "gathering of the Church" before that judgment.

As I said, the gathering of the Church is explicitly aligned with the actual Coming of Christ, and not before. Shame on you for corrupting the word of God!

 

[Keraz]

the gathering of the Church is explicitly aligned with the actual Coming of Christ, and not before. Shame on you for corrupting the word of God!

Yes; Jesus will gather His people when He Returns. They will mostly be the ones who will have been kept in a place of safety; Revelation 12:14
But the gathering of all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land, will happen at least 10 years before the glorious Return.

The Great Second Exodus:
In over forty Bible passages, it is prophesied that the Lord will gather His people: all righteous believers, and settle them into the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 107:1-43
In this second exodus, the descendants of Jacob, plus all those people grafted in and deemed to be the Lord’s people by their Christian faith, will come from all parts of the earth and assemble in a place called “the wilderness of the people”. Ezekiel 20:34-38 describes this event very well. Those judged unrighteous will not enter the Land.

The gathering of the Lord’s people into the Promised Land, must happen before Ezekiel 38:8 & 12– because the Northern army of Gog comes to invade “a land recently recovered from war, whose people are gathered from many nations, now living in peace and prosperity”. This attack by Gog, happens a few years after all the Lord’s true believers have settled into the Land – “in the very centre of the world – the towns restored from ruin”. Those attackers are annihilated by the Lord. Joel 2:20

This must occur some time before the Return of Jesus, as then He destroys the worldwide army of the Anti-Christ, who have conquered the holy Land. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5
Although Persia [Iran] is mentioned as a member of Gog’s host, most are from “the far recesses of the North”. The current enemies of the State of Israel, the Arab nations are not included. The reason for this, is that all the nations surrounding Israel, including Israel as well, will be devastated by the next prophesied event: Psalms 83:1-18, which is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. The Lord will act at the moment His enemies make the mistake of attacking Israel. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Psalms 7:15

This judgement will not be in the form of a nuclear exchange, as that would pollute the Land, but what fits the many prophesied descriptions of this Day, is a huge Coronal Mass Ejection from the sun. Isaiah 30:26 This will affect the entire world, but mostly, the Middle East area. Ezekiel 30:2-5 The Land of Greater Israel will be burnt over and devastated, all the population killed or evacuated. Jeremiah 10:18

THEN: Ezekiel 36:8-12 You Land of Israel: put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of My people is near. The towns will again be inhabited and the ruined places rebuilt, more prosperous and populous than in ancient times.

This great Second Exodus of the Lord’s people will then take place. There are many prophecies about it: Ezekiel 34:11-31…I will search for My sheep and gather them to the Land of Israel, from wherever they were scattered on My Day of wrath…. they will be the flock I feed and I will be their God.

Isaiah 66:18b-19 I am coming to gather peoples of every tongue, they will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on them and some I will send out to the nations who have never heard of Me. They will proclaim My Gospel to all peoples.

“I shall put a sign on them and will send some out to the nations”, some of them; must be the 144,000, as described in Revelation 7:3-8 & 14:1-7, Isaiah 49:6

Luke 10:1-12 is a precursor of these missionaries, who will “proclaim My Gospel” to ALL the world. This is the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of God – the coming Millennium reign of Jesus. This makes these verses irrefutable proof that the second Exodus of all the Lord’s holy people, must happen some years before the Return of Jesus.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes; Jesus will gather His people when He Returns. They will mostly be the ones who will have been kept in a place of safety; Revelation 12:14
But the gathering of all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land, will happen at least 10 years before the glorious Return.

As you know I define "Israel" differently than you do. I think Israel refers to the Jewish People, and you think it refers to Christians. As to their gathering, it depends, again, on how you define "Israel." Since I think it refers to the Jewish People, their regathering as already been happening, since before 1948.

The gathering of Christians, therefore, need not be identified as preliminary to the 2nd Coming. I believe Paul associates with Christ's 2nd Coming our regathering and our physical redemption.

 

[Zao is life]

In mat 24 we see Jesus declaring his coming Is compared to The days before the flood.
I have noticed this in the postrib rapture doctrine seem to be forbidden from that verse.
My question is , does "before" mean " before" ?
Was Noah and Jesus actually trying to say "after" the judgement?

Jesus declares Himself to be coming as a thief for the battle of Armageddon in His interjection of John's description of the visions regarding the 6th bowl of wrath, and it's for a very good reason that He adds,

"Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

He is not talking to those about to be judged.

Leading up to the return of Christ in judgment Jesus likened the oblivious condition of those who are to be judged as to what is about to come upon them when He comes as a thief, with the oblivious condition of those who were about to be judged in the flood:

The saints are seeing following Him on white horses when He judges the beast, and are also mentioned as being with Him when He comes in Zechariah 14, but the resurrection of the saints does not occur before the return of Christ.

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of man. (Mat.24)

15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev.16)

"They" did not know until the flood came in Mat.24:39 is referring to those who are to be judged at the time of His return.

These facts are repeated over and over in the New Testament, scattered in different books and chapters and verses.

And besides all this, in the New Testament the words "The Tribulation" and "Affliction" are not even used in reference to the world that is to be judged. They are always used in reference to the saints at the hand of those who persecute them - and this includes the only three references to GREAT tribulation in the New Testament.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus declares Himself to be coming as a thief for the battle of Armageddon in His interjection of John's description of the visions regarding the 6th bowl of wrath, and it's for a very good reason that He adds,

"Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

He is not talking to those about to be judged.

Leading up to the return of Christ in judgment Jesus likened the oblivious condition of those who are to be judged as to what is about to come upon them when He comes as a thief, with the oblivious condition of those who were about to be judged in the flood:

The saints are seeing following Him on white horses when He judges the beast, and are also mentioned as being with Him when He comes in Zechariah 14, but the resurrection of the saints does not occur before the return of Christ.

29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered into the ark.
39 And they did not know until the flood came and took them all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of man. (Mat.24)

15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (Rev.16)

"They" did not know until the flood came in Mat.24:39 is referring to those who are to be judged at the time of His return.

These facts are repeated over and over in the New Testament, scattered in different books and chapters and verses.

And besides all this, in the New Testament the words "The Tribulation" and "Affliction" are not even used in reference to the world that is to be judged. They are always used in reference to the saints at the hand of those who persecute them - and this includes the only three references to GREAT tribulation in the New Testament.

Your narrative does not fit

1) you leave out that Lot is AlONGSIDE Noah when Jesus declared in both a PREJUGEMENT gathering.
2) in your model, you now have the one taken/left, as only half the wicked are judged.
(Remember it is you that says the wicked are all taken away as in the flood)
Keep in mind, in your model, you have not addressed the fact that they are taken away AT THE FIRST of the flood....judged at the first.
You have them judged AFTER the flood.
So you changed what the verses say.
3) I already pointed out that there is zero in the Noah analogy by Jesus of ANYTHING after the flood.
That is WHY Jesus used Noah and Lot side by side.
IOW Lot AUTHENTICATES The "Noah gathered into the ark" analogy as a PREJUGEMENT gathering

See this is my point.
Postribbers have a banner verse.
That verse contains the word "after"
It is their only verse.
"After"
They can coin that word perfectly and pull it like a sixgun.
It amazes me that they can not comprehend "before"
Something about that word that is remarkably elusive.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes; Jesus will gather His people when He Returns. They will mostly be the ones who will have been kept in a place of safety; Revelation 12:14
But the gathering of all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land, will happen at least 10 years before the glorious Return.

The Great Second Exodus:
In over forty Bible passages, it is prophesied that the Lord will gather His people: all righteous believers, and settle them into the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 107:1-43
In this second exodus, the descendants of Jacob, plus all those people grafted in and deemed to be the Lord’s people by their Christian faith, will come from all parts of the earth and assemble in a place called “the wilderness of the people”. Ezekiel 20:34-38 describes this event very well. Those judged unrighteous will not enter the Land.

The gathering of the Lord’s people into the Promised Land, must happen before Ezekiel 38:8 & 12– because the Northern army of Gog comes to invade “a land recently recovered from war, whose people are gathered from many nations, now living in peace and prosperity”. This attack by Gog, happens a few years after all the Lord’s true believers have settled into the Land – “in the very centre of the world – the towns restored from ruin”. Those attackers are annihilated by the Lord. Joel 2:20

This must occur some time before the Return of Jesus, as then He destroys the worldwide army of the Anti-Christ, who have conquered the holy Land. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5
Although Persia [Iran] is mentioned as a member of Gog’s host, most are from “the far recesses of the North”. The current enemies of the State of Israel, the Arab nations are not included. The reason for this, is that all the nations surrounding Israel, including Israel as well, will be devastated by the next prophesied event: Psalms 83:1-18, which is the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. The Lord will act at the moment His enemies make the mistake of attacking Israel. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Psalms 7:15

This judgement will not be in the form of a nuclear exchange, as that would pollute the Land, but what fits the many prophesied descriptions of this Day, is a huge Coronal Mass Ejection from the sun. Isaiah 30:26 This will affect the entire world, but mostly, the Middle East area. Ezekiel 30:2-5 The Land of Greater Israel will be burnt over and devastated, all the population killed or evacuated. Jeremiah 10:18

THEN: Ezekiel 36:8-12 You Land of Israel: put forth your branches and bear fruit, for the homecoming of My people is near. The towns will again be inhabited and the ruined places rebuilt, more prosperous and populous than in ancient times.

This great Second Exodus of the Lord’s people will then take place. There are many prophecies about it: Ezekiel 34:11-31…I will search for My sheep and gather them to the Land of Israel, from wherever they were scattered on My Day of wrath…. they will be the flock I feed and I will be their God.

Isaiah 66:18b-19 I am coming to gather peoples of every tongue, they will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on them and some I will send out to the nations who have never heard of Me. They will proclaim My Gospel to all peoples.

“I shall put a sign on them and will send some out to the nations”, some of them; must be the 144,000, as described in Revelation 7:3-8 & 14:1-7, Isaiah 49:6

Luke 10:1-12 is a precursor of these missionaries, who will “proclaim My Gospel” to ALL the world. This is the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of God – the coming Millennium reign of Jesus. This makes these verses irrefutable proof that the second Exodus of all the Lord’s holy people, must happen some years before the Return of Jesus.

You left out the fact that Jesus framed Noah alongside lot as both being PREJUGEMENT gatherings.
Vivid, unmistakable pretrib rapture dynamics.
Abraham WITH ANGELS removes Lot PREJUDGMENT!!!
You do not see the elephant in the room? Lot AUTHENTICATES the Noah dynamic as pre judgement REMOVAL.
No matter how clever the dodge and reframing, the prejudgement removal is a sure thing.
( I almost said "fact", but you seem to be against facts)

 

[BlessedPeace]

Your narrative does not fit

1) you leave out that Lot is AlONGSIDE Noah when Jesus declared in both a PREJUGEMENT gathering.
2) in your model, you now have the one taken/left, as only half the wicked are judged.
(Remember it is you that says the wicked are all taken away as in the flood)
Keep in mind, in your model, you have not addressed the fact that they are taken away AT THE FIRST of the flood....judged at the first.
You have them judged AFTER the flood.
So you changed what the verses say.
3) I already pointed out that there is zero in the Noah analogy by Jesus of ANYTHING after the flood.
That is WHY Jesus used Noah and Lot side by side.
IOW Lot AUTHENTICATES The "Noah gathered into the ark" analogy as a PREJUGEMENT gathering

See this is my point.
Postribbers have a banner verse.
That verse contains the word "after"
It is their only verse.
"After"
They can coin that word perfectly and pull it like a sixgun.
It amazes me that they can not comprehend "before"
Something about that word that is remarkably elusive.

Are you saying Lot was with Noah?

 

[PinSeeker]

Lot walked away from Sodom and Gomorrah... and didn't look back (unlike Lot's wife):

"...one said, 'Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away.' And Lot said to them, 'Oh, no, my lords. Behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there ~ is it not a little one? ~ and my life will be saved!' He said to him, 'Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.' Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar" (Genesis 19:17-22).​

Lot did as he was told ~ because he feared the Lord, of course ~ and "removed" himself ~ escaped to Zoar. Likewise, Noah before him, who, having heeded God's warning... and in obedience to Him, of course, built a big boat (the ark, of course) that, after presumably walking into the... big boat... was kept safe by said big boat through the flood. Neither Noah nor Lot was "removed" from creation.

This whole thing about any kind of "removal" of those in the Lord is silly. The "removal" will be of those who do not find favor with the Lord, who are not recipients of God's mercy, who, in God's coming final Judgment, will be suddenly "swept away" as the victims of the flood were, "destroyed," as were the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. And up until this time, they will continue eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building ~ carefree and unaware, just as those in the days of Noah and Lot.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
Or can you show me the last trump pre Ch 4? And how there exists 7 more beyond the last?

Or can you explain to me the meaning of protos and how the first resurrection is really a second one in your mind with protos?

 

[grafted branch]

Lot walked away from Sodom and Gomorrah... and didn't look back (unlike Lot's wife):

"...one said, 'Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away.' And Lot said to them, 'Oh, no, my lords. Behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there ~ is it not a little one? ~ and my life will be saved!' He said to him, 'Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.' Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar" (Genesis 19:17-22).​

Lot did as he was told ~ because he feared the Lord, of course ~ and "removed" himself ~ escaped to Zoar. Likewise, Noah before him, who, having heeded God's warning... and in obedience to Him, of course, built a big boat (the ark, of course) that, after presumably walking into the... big boat... was kept safe by said big boat through the flood. Neither Noah nor Lot was "removed" from creation.

This whole thing about any kind of "removal" of those in the Lord is silly. The "removal" will be of those who do not find favor with the Lord, who are not recipients of God's mercy, who, in God's coming final Judgment, will be suddenly "swept away" as the victims of the flood were, "destroyed," as were the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. And up until this time, they will continue eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building ~ carefree and unaware, just as those in the days of Noah and Lot.

Grace and peace to all.

So would you say the Matthew 24:16 fleeing is akin to Lot leaving Sodom and Gomorrah and Noah entering the ark?

 

[Jack]

As you know I define "Israel" differently than you do. I think Israel refers to the Jewish People,

It does indeed but the identity thieves are still trying to steal Israel's identity. They are rabidly jealous.

and you think it refers to Christians. As to their gathering, it depends, again, on how you define "Israel." Since I think it refers to the Jewish People, their regathering as already been happening, since before 1948.

The gathering of Christians, therefore, need not be identified as preliminary to the 2nd Coming. I believe Paul associates with Christ's 2nd Coming our regathering and our physical redemption.

Israel is Home to stay, in the Land of the Bible, Israel! All the identity thieves in the world won't remove them!

Amos 9:14-15
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you saying Lot was with Noah?

I am saying Jesus used Lot alongside Noah as pre judgement examples of the rapture.
The gathering of the bride in a setting of commerce, peacetime, normal life, and buying and selling.
Only fits a pretrib rapture, while proving a postrib rapture impossible