Before the flood is actually "after"

[Timtofly]

Sure. Well, it really started with the coming of Jesus and then the Holy Spirit. So, precisely one thousand, nine hundred and ninety-four years ago? LOL... Well, thereabouts... Really, the most accurate thing we can say is, "when (as God said through the prophet Jeremiah) God began putting His law within His people, writing it on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:33)." Even shortly before His crucifixion, Jesus was clear in telling Nicodemus that "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So this was the case then, even before Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came. The precise date or year is not necessary to know... only that it is, and why it is. As the writer of Hebrews says, "...on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant... He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance."

All that said, I do (generally speaking) agree with Timtofly that the time of tribulation has been occurring ever since those days... I would say actually since Jesus was born of Mary. As Gabriel told Mary (as documented by Luke in Luke 1), “The Holy Spirit (came) upon (her), and the power of the Most High (overshadowed her)..." and "the child... born (was, even then, at His birth) "...holy ~ the Son of God." So, I would "set the date" ~ ~ at about 2033 years ago. Or thereabouts.

Grace and peace to all.

Matthew 24:4

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many."

 

[Timtofly]

Which confirms my sentence before the words "..and are to go through .." So once again you make a point based on not having any point to make.

Because you have the wrong tribulation, that you claim a rapture comes after.

The church is removed prior to Jacob's trouble, which is a separate and different tribulation, like no other.

 

[Timtofly]

quote
"""The words " The rapture" originates from a translation of the words translated as "Being caught up" in 1 Thess 4:17 - nowhere else, and no other verse. There is only one rapture day and it's the same as the resurrection day, and it's the same day that Christ returns, which comes immediately after (and ends) the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast:
29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other"""


1) the AC kills all refusing the mark
2) you have posted angels gathering FROM HEAVEN and call it the rapture.
3) you omit Lot and Noah.

That is WHY you center your doctrine on a definition of a word.
...and why nobody knows what your timeline is.
None of your theories refutes rev14:14, or mat 24:38
Rev 19 is the second coming on white horses.
No doubt you think that is the rapture

You both are wrong. Both think Noah and Lot represent the church. They don't, they represent Israel and the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. Enoch and Abraham represent the church. Enoch was taken out before all the wickedness on earth. Abraham talked with God seperate from the world that was about to be destroyed, while the angels marched against Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The church glorified is the 5th Seal. The church has already left the building, before all the craziness, and people yell fire.

Jesus and the angels are going to be on the earth with the 144k who are like Lot and Noah, but way more righteous. The time of Jacob's trouble is the final harvest, not persecution nor really great tribulation.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This is not the tribulation, trouble, nor persecution of the church. No one is going to be martyred during the Trumpets and Thunders. Those left on the earth are going to stand in Judgment before Jesus and separated as those who will be tossed into the LOF, and those changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, who wait on the sea of glass, until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, or they return on white horses for Armageddon. The only people dying are those judged and sent to their eternal state. The redeemed with a new physical body. The unredeemed into the LOF.

There are 4 sets of chronological events given in Revelation; Seals, Trumpets, Thunders, and Vials. If there are 8 billion on the earth, then each set is the systematic removal of mankind 2 billion per event. If you remove 2 billion alleged Christians first, that already leaves 6 billion to be divided 4 ways. The point is not that all the "saved" are the last to be removed. The last to be removed would be those with the mark, or those who would be marked either way, because they are removed from the Lamb's book of life by the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

The Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant per Daniel 9:27 is the determination of who is left. This time is not about Satan, but the end of Adam's punishment of sin and death. And death in the LOF is still the end of those alive at the Second Coming, as they will not be sent to the grave nor wait for the GWT Judgment. The whole point of the Second Coming as presented by Jesus throughout the Gospels, is that Jesus will sit in judgment, and that is why it is the period of greatest tribulation, not just great tribulation.

Amil are wrong, because they deny the Day of the Lord. Post trib are wrong, because no one is left in the end to rapture. Pre-trib are wrong because the Second Coming is the 6th Seal, even before the 7th Seal, the Trumpets and Thunders. No one's eschatology allows Jesus, the 144k, and the angels time to be on the earth before everyone is dead. You all remove them, before trouble even starts. Jesus will pick and choose who stays alive and who enters the second death. That all has to happen before the Day of the Lord can even start. The final harvest is not after Armageddon, with physically dead people. The final harvest is a very short period of unrest after the Second Coming, and before Satan is even cast out of heaven, at the 7th Trumpet. The wheat, sheep, goats, and tares, both redeemed and unredeemed in the billions are gone from the earth prior to the 7th Trumpet. Not because of trouble and persecution, nor even from Satan's rebel angels. They will be dead, because that is what an angel will do. An angel will either cast them into the LOF, or will change their souls from corruptible flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Angels don't just gather the church. The angels are on the earth post the Second Coming/6th Seal to remove all 8 billion+ souls from Adam's dead state. And that is why it is called the Great Tribulation, and not just great tribulation nor the tribulation of those days.

 

[rebuilder 454]

We disagree. In focusing upon things not in God's word, you ignore what the real focus was. That is distracting others away from the word of God. You change the word of God into your *own word.*

So you just ignore the points? Was the comparison between the Flood/Sodom and Judgment at Christ's Coming about *when* the gathering of the Church would be? Or, was it to show that things would get worse and that the wicked world is what precipitates these great judgments?

As I showed you, it was already understood that the gathering of the Church takes place *at Christ's Coming,* and not before. So that was *not* being compared with *when Lot was taken out of Sodom,* or *when Noah started building the ark.* The deliverance of all 3 occasions from judgment were not comparing when the righteous were gathered relative to the judgment, but rather, the fact that the righteous will be distinguished from the wicked in these judgments.

Yes, the Antichristian movement has been here from the time of ancient Rome, and has picked up steam in modern times when Enlightenment Philosophy began to seriously poison Christian Europe. And now, it is overtaking European Christianity entirely, leaving a rather small remnant of faithful Christians. This is the "falling away" that will result in the appearance of Antichrist himself.

Christ's Coming takes place to *destroy him.* That is explicitly being said in 2 Thes 2, which is a confirmation of what Daniel showed in Dan 7. The Kingdom comes when the Son of Man is revealed from heaven to destroy the Little Horn/the Antichrist.

I did not point out that we will see the Antichrist Pretrib. I view the "Great Tribulation" as defined by Jesus in Luke 21, which is the NT Jewish Diaspora. That has been happening all through NT history, namely the exile of the Jewish People. It is the greatest punishment the Jewish People have ever had to suffer.

The Antichrist comes towards the end of this long period, just as Israel is beginning to regather as a nation--Eze 36-37. The reign of Antichrist, commonly called "the Great Tribulation" is mis-named. His revelation includes a 3.5 year period of uncontested reign on earth, controlling a political base in Europe, the former home of Christianity.

At the end of this period, I think he will lose his base in the world, with nations of the East opposing him in the Middle East. And Christ will come to unleash great judgment, a global nuclear war. Christ's actual appearance takes place at some point in the midst of this war, I believe.

Sorry, read and memorize 2 Thes 2. I did--that's what made me a confirmed Postrib.

"Remember Lot's wife." What do you think that spoke to regarding "separation from wicked Sodom?" You say this is "nothing" about being spiritually separated??????

You've missed the point. Each context had its own sequence of events, which was *not* the point. To confuse Lot coming out of Sodom with Christians facing a nuclear judgment at Christ's Coming is a mistake that is not at point here. Obviously, they each had their own context and arrangement.

The spiritual points that Christ was making in this comparison had to do with our need to stand against universal wickedness--a lonely walk that the Christian must yield to. The world gets worse and the Christian has to hold his ground.

The deliverance from Sodom is different for Lot than it will be for Christians who are delivered at Christ's Coming. But the spiritual lesson is the same. That is what you're getting away from.

You're focusing on the timing of these varied events, which are being compared for their spiritual lessons. You're turning it into an argument for Pretrib, which is explicitly condemned in 2 Thes 2 by the Apostle Paul!

""" Was the comparison between the Flood/Sodom and Judgment at Christ's Coming about *when* the gathering of the Church would be? Or, was it to show that things would get worse and that the wicked world is what precipitates these great judgments?"""

You are reframing it.
Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Mat24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
( in these 2 verses it SAYS before the flood is the setting g of Jesus coming...no opinion...but UNCHANGEABLE FACT)

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
( JESUS'S COMING at the start of the flood...NOT HALFWAY...NOT AFTER)

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
( What was that??? ...THEN...that means BEFORE THE FLOOD...AUTHENTICATED BY ...AGAIN...THE SETTING...PEACETIME, NORMAL LIFE, COMMERCE)

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
(Peacetime, normal life, Commerce,)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

(What was that that???? Jesus just said???.. he said to watch therefore before the flood???
Jesus needs some good Ole postrib teaching to straighten him out!!!....
remember this is all in the setting of Before the Flood
it's all in the setting of peacetime, normal life, day to day activities, marrying , buying and selling ,Commerce, all just normal everyday life,

there's no Four Horsemen revealed ,there's no judgments from those four horsemen, Earth is not all in turmoil ,
there's no destroyed Earth .
it's all peace time and normal life when Jesus comes)
It is better to change your DOCTRINE than to change the bible.

Quote
"""As I showed you, it was already understood that the gathering of the Church takes place *at Christ's Coming,* and not before. So that was *not* being compared with *when Lot was taken out of Sodom,* or *when Noah started building the ark.* The deliverance of all 3 occasions from judgment"""
We clearly can see there is more than one coming.
You were duped into believing it.
Rev14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

That seals any hope of the rapture being postrib.
What postribbers have done is actually taken first Thessalonians 4 and change the word of shall not preceed ,to Shall preceed ,because you have the dead in Christ Rising after the 144,000, and after Jesus gathers sitting on a cloud with a sickle.
But it gets worse. Because Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle cannot be Jesus coming with millions of white horses and it cannot be the Rapture of the church because he doesn't hold a sickle when he's coming after the bride so the timing and the setting which you hate to explore is all against you

 

[rebuilder 454]

You both are wrong. Both think Noah and Lot represent the church. They don't, they represent Israel and the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. Enoch and Abraham represent the church. Enoch was taken out before all the wickedness on earth. Abraham talked with God seperate from the world that was about to be destroyed, while the angels marched against Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The church glorified is the 5th Seal. The church has already left the building, before all the craziness, and people yell fire.

Jesus and the angels are going to be on the earth with the 144k who are like Lot and Noah, but way more righteous. The time of Jacob's trouble is the final harvest, not persecution nor really great tribulation.

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

This is not the tribulation, trouble, nor persecution of the church. No one is going to be martyred during the Trumpets and Thunders. Those left on the earth are going to stand in Judgment before Jesus and separated as those who will be tossed into the LOF, and those changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, who wait on the sea of glass, until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, or they return on white horses for Armageddon. The only people dying are those judged and sent to their eternal state. The redeemed with a new physical body. The unredeemed into the LOF.

There are 4 sets of chronological events given in Revelation; Seals, Trumpets, Thunders, and Vials. If there are 8 billion on the earth, then each set is the systematic removal of mankind 2 billion per event. If you remove 2 billion alleged Christians first, that already leaves 6 billion to be divided 4 ways. The point is not that all the "saved" are the last to be removed. The last to be removed would be those with the mark, or those who would be marked either way, because they are removed from the Lamb's book of life by the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

The Confirmation of the Atonement Covenant per Daniel 9:27 is the determination of who is left. This time is not about Satan, but the end of Adam's punishment of sin and death. And death in the LOF is still the end of those alive at the Second Coming, as they will not be sent to the grave nor wait for the GWT Judgment. The whole point of the Second Coming as presented by Jesus throughout the Gospels, is that Jesus will sit in judgment, and that is why it is the period of greatest tribulation, not just great tribulation.

Amil are wrong, because they deny the Day of the Lord. Post trib are wrong, because no one is left in the end to rapture. Pre-trib are wrong because the Second Coming is the 6th Seal, even before the 7th Seal, the Trumpets and Thunders. No one's eschatology allows Jesus, the 144k, and the angels time to be on the earth before everyone is dead. You all remove them, before trouble even starts. Jesus will pick and choose who stays alive and who enters the second death. That all has to happen before the Day of the Lord can even start. The final harvest is not after Armageddon, with physically dead people. The final harvest is a very short period of unrest after the Second Coming, and before Satan is even cast out of heaven, at the 7th Trumpet. The wheat, sheep, goats, and tares, both redeemed and unredeemed in the billions are gone from the earth prior to the 7th Trumpet. Not because of trouble and persecution, nor even from Satan's rebel angels. They will be dead, because that is what an angel will do. An angel will either cast them into the LOF, or will change their souls from corruptible flesh into permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Angels don't just gather the church. The angels are on the earth post the Second Coming/6th Seal to remove all 8 billion+ souls from Adam's dead state. And that is why it is called the Great Tribulation, and not just great tribulation nor the tribulation of those days.

Nope
Jesus is Firstfruit s of the resurrection and the church. That is a fact

The 144k are Firstfruit s of the JEWISH harvest.
So until you get that straight, you will not get the timeline straight.

 

[Timtofly]

Nope
Jesus is Firstfruit s of the resurrection and the church. That is a fact

The 144k are Firstfruit s of the JEWISH harvest.
So until you get that straight, you will not get the timeline straight.

Jesus is on the earth with the angels when the 144k are chosen.

Jesus was already baptized before the 12 disciples were chosen.

The baptism of fire happens before the 144k are chosen.

The 144k are the firstfruits of the final harvest. There will be a remnant of Israel gathered during the final harvest, along with some from every nation. Matthew 25 is the harvest of Jacob. Matthew 13 is the final harvest of all nations. Jesus is personally sowing the seed on the earth after the 6th Seal.

 

[No Pre-TB]

As a pretribber, I am not forbidden from any part of the bible.

It would have been nice to hear your thoughts on my question that you quoted in post #22. Instead, you disregarded it and spoke about post Trib issues. I’m not sure why that was brought up. My post was asking if someone pre-TB could make sense of such and such verses. It was a very open and basic question.

If you’d like to talk about Matthew 24:38 and Rev 14:14, I’d delight in that. But I’d ask first for you to respond to each of the verses I posted and how they are to be understood from a Pre-TB position with clarifying scripture. Not just one’s opinion without citation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It would have been nice to hear your thoughts on my question that you quoted in post #22. Instead, you disregarded it and spoke about post Trib issues. I’m not sure why that was brought up. My post was asking if someone pre-TB could make sense of such and such verses. It was a very open and basic question.

If you’d like to talk about Matthew 24:38 and Rev 14:14, I’d delight in that. But I’d ask first for you to respond to each of the verses I posted and how they are to be understood from a Pre-TB position with clarifying scripture. Not just one’s opinion without citation.

No Pre-TB said:
Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
I've always believed in second Thessalonians chapter 2 that the Antichrist would be revealed first before the Rapture
I've always believed that
I've never thought anything else.
In fact I believe that Believers will be rounded up and put in huge facilities ,open air facilities by the Antichrist and by his forces.
I believe that the Rapture actually takes place in those facilities. So yes I totally agree the Antichrist is revealed first and then the rapture. Which still makes it a pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No Pre-TB said:
Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
I love that verse where Peter talks about the restoration of all things. I love that verse. And we will see it one day. I don't know if you know it or not but the very Pinnacle of end times is completed by Jesus on the throne of David. The Throne of David reestablished on the Earth and Jesus sitting on that throne. Most everything is restored at that point. So yes Jesus remains in heaven until the restitution of all things or you could say the restoration of all things. That's also interesting that the church is in heaven with Jesus during the tribulation period and then the church returns as we can see in Revelation 19 on the white horses back to her that's when Jesus comes back to Earth that's after the Great Tribulation or whatever you want to call it

 

[rebuilder 454]

No Pre-TB said:
Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
The verse that you pointed out in job is actually Job talking. Job had a lot of false Concepts and he was making a lot of false cases... mainly because he didn't know what was going on.
God never told him that it was the devil doing all that to him.
And it never was revealed to him otherwise
. If you keep reading in that book of Job you will see that God straightened him out on tons of his false Concepts.
We know that part about going into the grave and never Rising again until the heaven s departed ,cannot possibly be true, because we saw it over and over and over with Jesus raising the Dead , and with the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
we see it with the two witnesses that were raised from the dead and went to heaven
..... and all that off the top of my head

 

[Randy Kluth]

( in these 2 verses it SAYS before the flood is the setting g of Jesus coming...no opinion...but UNCHANGEABLE FACT)

No, you're confusing 2 separate contexts that are being compared for their spiritual lessons.

(What was that that???? Jesus just said???.. he said to watch therefore before the flood???
Jesus needs some good Ole postrib teaching to straighten him out!!!....
remember this is all in the setting of Before the Flood
it's all in the setting of peacetime, normal life, day to day activities, marrying , buying and selling ,Commerce, all just normal everyday life,

Again, you're missing the point of the comparison. The world, in its sin, is not getting ready for judgment. The saints prepare by walking in Christ. You are comparing 2 different plays that have an entirely different order, an entirely different context.

Of course they don't match--they're different stories!! But the spiritual lessons are plain. The saints need to get ready and stay ready by living in Christ. The world will pay no heed, and will continue to get worse.

That seals any hope of the rapture being postrib.
What postribbers have done is actually taken first Thessalonians 4 and change the word of shall not preceed ,to Shall preceed ,because you have the dead in Christ Rising after the 144,000, and after Jesus gathers sitting on a cloud with a sickle.
But it gets worse. Because Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle cannot be Jesus coming with millions of white horses and it cannot be the Rapture of the church because he doesn't hold a sickle when he's coming after the bride so the timing and the setting which you hate to explore is all against you

You confuse symbolic scenes with real history. You confuse one example with another example, and miss the entire point.

But the biggest problem is you ignore the explicit Postrib teaching in 2 Thes 1-2. And you ignore its connection to Dan 7 where Daniel pictures the Son of Man coming from heaven to deliver his saints from the Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom.

That is explicit Postrib teaching, my friend. And jockeying around the various stories being told about this cannot and should not blur the spiritual lessons Jesus is trying to get across.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No Pre-TB said:
Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
I've always believed in second Thessalonians chapter 2 that the Antichrist would be revealed first before the Rapture
I've always believed that
I've never thought anything else.
In fact I believe that Believers will be rounded up and put in huge facilities ,open air facilities by the Antichrist and by his forces.
I believe that the Rapture actually takes place in those facilities. So yes I totally agree the Antichrist is revealed first and then the rapture. Which still makes it a pretrib rapture.

If we are raptured after the AC is revealed, how long does he reign for? Because mainstream Pre-TB says the AC must reign in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week, after the abomination that causes desolation is setup. If I’m understanding you correctly, after that revealing of the AC would place the rapture towards the end of Revelation due to this issue.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No Pre-TB said:
Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
I love that verse where Peter talks about the restoration of all things. I love that verse. And we will see it one day. I don't know if you know it or not but the very Pinnacle of end times is completed by Jesus on the throne of David. The Throne of David reestablished on the Earth and Jesus sitting on that throne. Most everything is restored at that point. So yes Jesus remains in heaven until the restitution of all things or you could say the restoration of all things. That's also interesting that the church is in heaven with Jesus during the tribulation period and then the church returns as we can see in Revelation 19 on the white horses back to her that's when Jesus comes back to Earth that's after the Great Tribulation or whatever you want to call it

If Jesus cannot leave heaven till the restoration of all things to their previous glory, when do you suggest we are in heaven? Are we raptured before the seals or in the trumpets or after the bowls? Where do you place our gathering at?

 

[No Pre-TB]

No Pre-TB said:
Can someone explain pre-tb with 2Thess 2:1-4 ?
Or can you explain it with Job 14:12 ?
Or 2 Timothy 4:1 ?
Or Isaiah 25:6-10 ?
Or Acts 3:21 ?
The verse that you pointed out in job is actually Joe talking. Job had a lot of false Concepts and he was making a lot of false cases... mainly because he didn't know what was going on.
God never told him that it was the devil doing all that to him.
And it never was revealed to him otherwise
. If you keep reading in that book of Job you will see that God straightened him out on tons of his false Concepts.
We know that part about going into the grave and never Rising again until the heaven s departed ,cannot possibly be true, because we saw it over and over and over with Jesus raising the Dead , and with the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
we see it with the two witnesses that were raised from the dead and went to heaven
..... and all that off the top of my head

But Job was in the spirit speaking truth. He was not reprimanded by God for those words. Yes, Jesus did raise the dead, but the resurrection Job speaks of is the better resurrection (Hebrews 11:35) unto eternal life, not again in the flesh. This is why he says the resurrection will not happen till the heavens are no more. He gives a prerequisite. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:7-10 also mentions when the heavens are no more. That event is linked to the 6th seal which demonstrates a resurrection cannot happen till sometime after the 6th seal is opened. If someone believes the resurrection precedes all seals, then there is conflict with Job 14:12

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, you're confusing 2 separate contexts that are being compared for their spiritual lessons.

Again, you're missing the point of the comparison. The world, in its sin, is not getting ready for judgment. The saints prepare by walking in Christ. You are comparing 2 different plays that have an entirely different order, an entirely different context.

Of course they don't match--they're different stories!! But the spiritual lessons are plain. The saints need to get ready and stay ready by living in Christ. The world will pay no heed, and will continue to get worse.

You confuse symbolic scenes with real history. You confuse one example with another example, and miss the entire point.

But the biggest problem is you ignore the explicit Postrib teaching in 2 Thes 1-2. And you ignore its connection to Dan 7 where Daniel pictures the Son of Man coming from heaven to deliver his saints from the Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom.

That is explicit Postrib teaching, my friend. And jockeying around the various stories being told about this cannot and should not blur the spiritual lessons Jesus is trying to get across.

Nope
I am saying what is written.
It says the AC is revealed before the rapture.
That is what it says.
I am saying the exact same thing.
So you hit all around that fact but miss.

QUOTE
""You confuse symbolic scenes with real history. You confuse one example with another example, and miss the entire point.""

JESUS used them side by side.
Nobody is saying they are not 2 different stories.
But play it out
Which one of the "before judgement" analogies DO we not watch and be ready for what is written???
Hello..it is written AT HIS COMING ( show me your method for changing what is written).

Even though it says prejudgement coming, and NEITHER ARE Gathered post judgement, you insist Noah and lot are POSTJUDGEMENT dynamics.
It is a fact, that you are REFRAMING both into postjudgement dynamics.
....as opposed to the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

But Job was in the spirit speaking truth. He was not reprimanded by God for those words. Yes, Jesus did raise the dead, but the resurrection Job speaks of is the better resurrection (Hebrews 11:35) unto eternal life, not again in the flesh. This is why he says the resurrection will not happen till the heavens are no more. He gives a prerequisite. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:7-10 also mentions when the heavens are no more. That event is linked to the 6th seal which demonstrates a resurrection cannot happen till sometime after the 6th seal is opened. If someone believes the resurrection precedes all seals, then there is conflict with Job 14:12

nope
Jesus is the FIRSTFRUITS of the resurrection.
The patriarchs alongside Jesus were raised and taken to heaven
So Job preceded you and is resurrected and in heaven, so, Job was wrong about a lot of things.
You need that changed to fit doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If Jesus cannot leave heaven till the restoration of all things to their previous glory, when do you suggest we are in heaven? Are we raptured before the seals or in the trumpets or after the bowls? Where do you place our gathering at?

He left heaven for Paul and John.
Bit nice try.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If we are raptured after the AC is revealed, how long does he reign for? Because mainstream Pre-TB says the AC must reign in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week, after the abomination that causes desolation is setup. If I’m understanding you correctly, after that revealing of the AC would place the rapture towards the end of Revelation due to this issue.

No
Obama was revealed way before he took power.
It is the Jews that will be deceived.
The AC is revealed to us, as Obama was revealed as a snake, way before he had any power.
It says "REVEALED"

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, you're confusing 2 separate contexts that are being compared for their spiritual lessons.

Again, you're missing the point of the comparison. The world, in its sin, is not getting ready for judgment. The saints prepare by walking in Christ. You are comparing 2 different plays that have an entirely different order, an entirely different context.

Of course they don't match--they're different stories!! But the spiritual lessons are plain. The saints need to get ready and stay ready by living in Christ. The world will pay no heed, and will continue to get worse.

You confuse symbolic scenes with real history. You confuse one example with another example, and miss the entire point.

But the biggest problem is you ignore the explicit Postrib teaching in 2 Thes 1-2. And you ignore its connection to Dan 7 where Daniel pictures the Son of Man coming from heaven to deliver his saints from the Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom.

That is explicit Postrib teaching, my friend. And jockeying around the various stories being told about this cannot and should not blur the spiritual lessons Jesus is trying to get across.

"But the biggest problem is you ignore the explicit Postrib teaching in 2 Thes 1-2. And you ignore its connection to Dan 7 where Daniel pictures the Son of Man coming from heaven to deliver his saints from the Antichrist and to establish his Kingdom."
I have stated over and over.
The AC is revealed, as the bible says , then the rapture.
Both are pretrib.
We AGREE he is revealed then the rapture.
You are saying Obama was revealed as a snake years after he took power.

You need that word " revealed" changed.
That is your problem.

 

[Timtofly]

But Job was in the spirit speaking truth. He was not reprimanded by God for those words. Yes, Jesus did raise the dead, but the resurrection Job speaks of is the better resurrection (Hebrews 11:35) unto eternal life, not again in the flesh. This is why he says the resurrection will not happen till the heavens are no more. He gives a prerequisite. Peter, in 2 Peter 3:7-10 also mentions when the heavens are no more. That event is linked to the 6th seal which demonstrates a resurrection cannot happen till sometime after the 6th seal is opened. If someone believes the resurrection precedes all seals, then there is conflict with Job 14:12

"Heavens no more" could have many interpretations. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. The resurrection of Job happened at the Cross. Leaving Abraham's bosom and sitting in heavenly places, was the first resurrection experienced by all the redeemed out of Abraham's bosom.

Explain to me why only souls existed in the grave, should still exist only as souls in a physical place called Paradise, with the physical tree of life? Why could souls not have waited in Paradise, instead of the grave with the dead, since you don't accept a physical resurrection? The soul was not dead, but covered by the blood, that is why they were in Abraham's bosom separate from those tormented in sheol. But the grave was not Paradise, because the tree of life was not stuck in the grave. A soul cannot eat physical food, can it?

Being dead, meant they had no body, but the Cross changed death forever, for the redeemed. There was no longer a reason to remain physically dead. So yes, the resurrection preceded the Seals by going on 1994 years now, as Nisan 14th is tomorrow.

But if you are going to be literal, think how similar these verses are:

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

There have been several resurrections for the redeemed, but unredeemed mankind will all still have to wait until after creation has been no more. Job was not talking about himself, but humankind in general.

The rapture does not happen after the "the man of sin" is revealed. The Day of the Lord happens after many things, including Satan bound in the pit.

The heavens were no more after the Flood, as the changing of all that water from heaven to earth changed the then heavens forevermore. That was also a point Peter made in 2 Peter 3.

"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now,"

So the heavens were no more at the time of the Flood. For all we know, Job could have lived prior to the Flood of Noah's day. Job could have been resurrected at the Flood, but the rest had to still wait, until creation was over. How technical do you want to get about the heavens being no more? In the OT, the heavens were no more because of water. At the 6th Seal, the heavens are no more, because of fire. In Revelation 20, the heavens and earth are returned to God, and return to nothingness as they came from nothingness. The water and fire changed the heavens and what was, was no more. But even creation has a beginning and an end. And was not before the beginning, and will not be after the end.