Before the flood is actually "after"
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Davy
Well-Known Member
But Pretribbers do that very thing with many Bible verses though...
For example, how do you get a Pre-trib Rapture out of that verse they keep quoting about the "Looking for that blessed hope"?
Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
KJV
That blessed hope is pointing to the return... of our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet it does NOT say there just WHEN that return will happen. So how do they get a Pre-trib Rapture out of that?
Simple, they ADD it. The false Pre-trib Rapture preachers simply pump up that verse while ADDING their false Pre-trib Rapture theory into it. And like Hitler said, if a lie is pushed often enough and long enough, the people will believe it.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No, the Scripture DOES NOT SAY that Jesus symbolically comes BEFORE the flood. There's that ADDING to Scripture we are not supposed to do (Rev.22).
When the flood comes, that symbolically represents the day of Christ's return, in that analogy Jesus was using about Noah's day. There are plenty New Testament Scriptures that reveal that day of Christ's return will be a SURPRISE upon the wicked and deceived, but it is not to be a surprise for His faithful Church (1 Thess.5; Rev.3:3). There's even more... Scriptures of how the wicked and deceived will be shocked on that day as per the Old Testament, which are also about the "day of the Lord".
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
There is no change from mortality to immortality. That is not found in Scripture anywhere. That is not Paul's message in "this mortal must put on immortality". You as a born again child of God have already passed from death into life. That is mortal putting on immortality. That is death putting on life. That is literally a spiritual phenomenon, and has nothing to do with the physical body at all.
What did Jesus mean in this verse:
"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."
According to these verses, the Cross changed everything and the spiritual aspect of death was removed. But why hide the physical aspect as well? Talk about an agenda. Why has the church kept the fabrication going, that there is no resurrection until the last hour of creation? That is the agenda of post tribulation thought. Because the church taught post millennial everything. Then some pointed out, no Scripture states there is a Second Coming pre-mill. But why stop there? What about pre-satan's 42 months? What about pre-trib? The resurrection of the OT redeemed was pre-Holy Spirit poured out on Pentecost. Why can no one see these other points where there is no longer death, but passing out of death into life? If you are post any of the above, you may even deny that Lazarus was resurrected from the grave, never to see or taste death again. Yet many of you all teach Lazarus physically died again, as if Jesus had no power of life at that point. Why condemn this guy to two physical deaths? Jesus just told you all that no one would taste death again, standing there before the Cross, and then you turn around and condemn Lazarus to another death.
When are you all going to realize that for the redeemed, there is no physical death, but the soul immediately enters a permanent incorruptible physical body? Paul is not ever saying that a body will rise out of the grave ever in any of his writings. That would directly contradict the words of Jesus, that states no one will taste death. And that is because the Cross changed the dynamics of death forevermore for those in Christ.
You want the right order of things? You have to give up this post resurrection ideology that permeates the church. The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is not about the church nor anyone else except a well defined group. And this group did taste death. They had to chop off their heads just to be redeemed, not because they were were redeemed. They had to stand in judgment in order to pass from death into life. Only those who were beheaded to avoid the mark will taste death, and be resurrected, because the rest of the dead are those with the mark at that point. No one else is dead, because the redeemed have already passed from death into life, even before the 42 months, in which the mark was given.
So, do you change Revelation against the warning not to, and make Revelation fit the Gospel accounts. Or do you leave Revelation alone, and adjust what we know about the Gospel accounts of the Second Coming? Then you all need to figure out why the church thinks a future resurrection is inevitable, when the resurrection of the dead already took place at the Cross. No one has been "the dead" and redeemed since the Cross. You are either one or the other, not both. When Paul refers to the "dead in Christ", that is a rhetorical point about physical death, but not a literal point that they are without physical bodies. Or it has nothing to do with those physically dead at all. The closest thing would be we are in death, because Adam's flesh is death, not life. But no one took death with them to heaven. Death was left to return to dust.
No, God is not going to bring that dust back, since they already have a physical body from God that is already permanent and incorruptible. So rising first is the moment the soul leaves Adam's flesh, and enters God's body. 2 Corinthians 5:1 should clear that up for you all. The only souls that does not apply to are those who purposely chopped off their heads. They have to wait until after Satan is bound in the pit, before receiving the first resurrection. So when does the church leave, and the final harvest begins? Are people chopping off their heads at alters in churches throughout the world before the church is taken away?
As I have shown, over and over, Jesus used lot, WITH NOAH BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Ahem....that is lot prejudgement.
That is Noah pre judgement.
That is Lot prejudgement
Look real ,real closely.
It says, as opposed to your theory,... BEFORE THE FLOOD.
By leaving things out, you think someone believes your doctrine gains traction??????
Jesus used both analogies side by side.
You really do not believe the bible, do you?
A good starting place would be to not omit verses.
I know why you guys do it.
Just flat out stop doing it.
You just gave a made up reason that lead you to REFRAME mat 24.
You simply made up the notion that Jesus returning postrib is the same event as the pretrib return Jesus used in Lot and Noah.
You post reasons why Jesus does not know what he is conveying.
You can believe what ever fairy tale you desire.
You can not in honesty change mat 24:38, nor can you honestly change rev14:14.
You can grab any postrib teacher. Sort through all the fairy tales.
NONE...NOT A ONE...can unpack those 2 PRETRIB rapture verses.
Ahem....as you have demonstrated.
"last trump"
Does not void the pretrib rapture verses.
That is a really bad starting place.
Wow.
You just showed us how you could REFRAME every verse.
I actually burst out laughing at your butcher job.
You really think Jesus was confused when he showed Lot alongside Jesus in his 2 analogies as Noah and lot gathered as a phoney post judgement?????
Reread it.
Both are pre judgement.
Two examples of pretrib coming.
I know it is painful to you guys.
Such an investment , only to be smashed by the bible.
It is clear and vivid
He comes pretrib
Pre flood
Pre Sodom destroyed.
He comes postrib with his saints.
You are demonstrating , by absurd commentary, the 2 comings are beyond some cunning REFRAME job.
you just demonstrated by the verses you attempt to REFRAME that these are 2 separate events.
WHY do you think that Jesus added, vividly, the setting of The Pre-trib coming with lot and Noah. Why on Earth would he inject that setting?
was he just confused?
No
Jesus was not confused.
The setting was normal life, Commerce, buying and selling, peace time, marrying and giving in marriage.
In other words ,very normal life on this planet. Now on your after the tribulation coming which you incorrectly construe us the rapture, there is none of that, I repeat none of that is going on.
So by leaving out the setting , and just recklessly omitting it, you try and reframe those verses. Only the pre-trib rapture fits there's nothing you can do to cleverly disguise it as one coming, when we can see very clearly these are two separate events.
In fact there is not a single post-trib Rapture verse in the entire Bible. Your Matthew 24 verse that says after the tribulation ,it clearly says angels are gathering ,not Jesus, and they are Gathering From Heaven, not earth.
Inclusion of verses will get us truth.
Hiding them is very telling of a man made embarrassment.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Any spirit that ADDS to those Scriptures is NOT from God.
Rev.14:14 is about harvest time, which includes ALL peoples on earth, including Christ's saints. His "wrath" though is for the wicked ONLY, and that is what you cannot understand, because of those you listen to won't properly teach you about the 'harvest' idea in God's Word that Jesus said (Matthew 13).
Matthew 24:38 is simply Jesus showing how the end times just prior to His return is going to be like the days of Noah. I already explained all that too, and I COVERED THE WHOLE SCRIPTURE SECTION THERE instead of pulling out just ONE verse and ADDING a bunch of outside ideas to it like you did.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You're only bypassing on purpose what I showed you from the actual Bible Scripture, and it's obvious you do that just so you can keep your tradition of men you've fallen into. You really need to come out that deception.
Davy
Well-Known Member
What a JOKE.
None of those two verses teach a pre-trib rapture theory!
So now you try to claim I'm a liar, while I cannot even get you to LOOK at the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture where Jesus shows His future return is AFTER THE TRIBULATION! You know what your denial of that Scripture makes you?
The last trump, what is your opinion on when that is meaning? Because until the last trump sounds first, no one could possibly be ascending to heaven in an immortal bodily state. And that presents a problem if the proposed Pretrib rapture is not meaning the last trump but is meaning prior to it. Which then means, per Pretrib, the church is being translated to heaven still in the same state they are in before the rapture even occurs.
And what state are they in before the rapture occurs? They are in the same state you and I are in right now, a mortal state, a flesh and blood state. And we are to believe that the church enters heaven in that state? After all, it obviously can't be meaning an immortal bodily state, that if, even per Pretrib, the last trump is not meaning prior to great trib, it is meaning after great trib.
As if it makes sense that the church enters heaven in the same state they are in before the alleged Pretrib rapture occurs. Even Jesus when He acended back into heaven, He did that in an immortal bodily state, not a mortal bodily state instead. Before He died He was in a mortal bodily state. After He died then rose, He was no longer in a mortal bodily state. He was in an immortal bodily state. It was after He rose that He then eventually ascended back into heaven.
Which brings up another point, the dead in Christ that rise first. How can they remotely do that without it involving the last trump per 1 Corinthians 15-52? Except Pretrib has them rising prior to great trib rather than after. Now we are back to where we started. Are Pretribbers going to argue that 1 Corinthians 15-52 is not meaning after great trib but is meaning prior to great trib, then think some of the rest of us are going to take that argument serious?
If Pretrib does not dispute that 1 Corinthians 15:52 is meaning post trib, thus agrees, but disagrees that 1 Thessalonians 4:12-17 is also meaning post trib, it's no wonder some of the rest of us can't get on board with the idea that Pretrib is plausible, the fact, per this scenario, Pretrib has the dead in Christ rising without it even involving the last trump. IOW, it is ludicrous that the dead in Christ can rise without it involving 1 Corinthians 15:52. It is equally ludicrous that 1 Corinthians 15:52 is meaning before great trib rather than after.
BTW, there was a time involving decades that I too was a diehard Pretrib rapture believer myself. If I was able to eventually change my mind about that, anyone should be able to do so as well.
Let's start over then. Maybe I'm just not fully understanding what you are applying to what?
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
What are you applying verse 39 to, and what are you applying verse 40 to? IOW, per those verses and your take on them, are we at the beginning of great trib, or at the end of great trib?
As to verse 38, they are doing those things in spite of the warning given by God to Noah, that the end of all flesh is at hand. Not to mention, they can't miss the fact Noah has been building this huge ark in preparation for this soon approaching judgment day. Yet, they continue to live life as normal, all the way up until Noah enters the ark and shuts the doors. That's when judgment day initially began. Obviously, once the rain started up and there was no end in sight, they were no longer doing this any more---eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Except Pretrib has them still eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, for at least another 3.5 years post the initial coming of the Son of man. Apparently, because they conflate the day of the Lord with that of great tribulation.
When Noah entered the ark and shut the doors, this would be akin to when the beginning of the coming of the Son of man occurs, thus when judgment day initially begins involving the final days of this age. IOW, the beginning of the day of the Lord, where the day of the Lord is not to be mistaken for the beginning of great tribulation. Matthew 24:29, for one, makes it crystal clear that the day of the Lord begins immediately after great tribulation.
Something else to note. While it is true that God protected Noah and those aboard the ark during the flood, He didn't do that by having to remove them from the earth altogether. Pretrib implies that God is simply not capable of protecting the church during His wrath unless He removes them from the planet entirely. Don't some of you ever learn anything from any examples in the OT? Such as what I just brought up. Plus, here's another example.
Exodus 10:14 21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
22 And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
23 They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
Notice what verse 23 says---but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings. God did not have to remove anyone from the planet in order to make it pitch black in some places but not pitch black in other places.
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At one time I was a postribber.
Then I saw that I had to omit huge parts of the bible
So once I saw that error I had to change my mind.
The issue for a postrib rapture doctrine is that the 3 comings have to reformed into one.
That is the magic act that postribbers are challenged with.
Their answer to that dilemma is to quickly divert into another component.
...as in changing the issue into " last trump"
The last trump is blown every year at the feast of trumpets in Israel.
The white horseman kicks off the GT.
That starts the trib.
He immediately persecutes christians.
Those left behind are beheaded.
Thank you for Including vs 38.
Before the flood.
It is also used with lot as the same example.
With lot it is also a prejudgment example.
Both are the same setting.
Peacetime, commerce, normal life.
Not by any stretch can that coming (Rapture) be postrib..
The postrib coming in mat 24 and rev 19k has a totally different gathering...not the rapture.
It just will not jive at all.
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