Being Faithful to God

[Behold]

The bible is clear about people that don't help the less fortunate, and it also is clear on sinners. They don't go to heaven. .

Devin,

"Christ came into the world to SAVE SINNERS".

God justifies the 'UNGODLY"....

So, we are all ungodly sinners, hell bound, until God rescues us with the Cross of Christ.

So, "sinners" are not the born again.......as the born again : are now The SONS of God.

"sinners" are unbelievers, never born again.... who are no yet given "the Gift of Righteousness", and they exist here. John 3:36, until they are born again.

 

[David H.]

Falling away, in Heb 6, is not "losing your salvation".
Nor is...>"dead faith", in James.....suggesting "dead salvation".

I asked this of BB and he could not give a straight answer so i will ask you.... OSAS believers like yourself claim there is nothing that can separate the Born again from the grace of God and their salvation, yet they continually say that falling into legalism is falling away from grace and their salvation. How is this possible, is this not a contradiction?

Now you know I believe in the doctrine of eternal security, but i do not believe in the false doctrine of OSAS. Eternal security being the goal of a Christian walk (Faith is a Journey), where we as believers walk through the valley of doubt and come to the full assurance of the faith.
Like salvation, that full assurance of the faith is of our own choice to desire and pursue and is an experience we live more so than a doctrine we ascribe to, at which point there is no turning back, falling away, backsliding, etc., we can truly say with Paul, "to live is Christ, to die is gain."

 

[Behold]

I asked this of BB and he could not give a straight answer so i will ask you.... OSAS believers like yourself claim there is nothing that can separate the Born again from the grace of God and their salvation, yet they continually say that falling into legalism is falling away from grace and their salvation. "

I didnt see this question.

Im happy to answer it for you.

Here is the answer.....>No one who understands the Gospel of the Grace of God, will say that a Legalist has lost their salvation.
As you can't lose your salvation.,,,,(as all HERETICS teach you can). David.
But you can become "faith corrupted"... "faith subverted" "bewitched" and "in the Flesh" as Paul teaches the Galatians, some, who have become so.
And in their case, they are saved, born again, but their faith is broken into LEGALISM......which means they are : "fallen from Grace".

 

[David H.]

Here is the answer.....>No one who understands the Gospel of the Grace of God, will say that a Legalist has lost their salvation.
As you can't lose your salvation.,,,,(as all HERETICS teach you can). David.

Yet you are continually saying these legalists are heretics, and hypocrites, and that verses like Hebrews 6 speak of those who were never born again, yet they were "partakers of the Holy Spirit".

My view is that until we reach that full assurance of the faith, and the eternal security that is associated with this, the born again believer is in danger of falling away, Just like the Parable of the sower says some seed fell on rocky soil and had grew no roots, even though they received the Gospel with joy. Or the ones who are in the thorny soil are choked out by the cares of this world and are fruitless in their faith. IMO the OSAS doctrine is empty and shallow in this regard, because it fails to take into account the soil the seed falls on. When Prophetic scripture speaks of the falling away this is associated with lawlessness and not legalism, with the "lawless one" leading the way to lawlessness.... You might as well embrace the "pride stuff" so as not to upset the minority if OSAS is true.... right? Some OSAS churches are doing that even as we speak...

This is why I reject OSAS, but embrace Eternal security and distinguish between the two. There is a modicum of Truth to OSAS in that God will keep those who are his.... but that believer Must be the committed and submitted bride to the groom to be considered "His". Mind you this is all the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, who has reached the point of brokenness and surrender, from trying to do things of their own will and strength.

It is not has simple as you make it out to be, as Faith is a journey, not a destination.

 

[Behold]

Yet you are continually saying these legalists are heretics, and hypocrites,

Did you know that OSAS is a man made idea that is not actually related to what you think it means?
Thats a fact.

OSAS, to correctly understand what this means, is this...>"God who saved you, keeps you saved".
"Once born again, always born again".

The heresy, that the heretic teaches, as their deceived idea of OSAS, is ..."license to sin".


Also Your opinion is that faith is like a child who needs to grow up, before God will accept this faith.
Well, God says....If you give Him your faith, ONCE.... He will give you the Righteousness of God in Christ, for eternity.
I'll let you continue to determine if you are right or if God said..>"the work of God is that you Believe In Jesus, whom God sent".
Proof you have believed and God accepted your faith ONCE, and for always? = BORN AGAIN, having become "ONE with God"..

Also, I dont say that legalists are "hypocrites", but i will say that if they lie, using a heresy, i will say, "liar"., and post the reason.

And finally, Faith is a one time TRUST in Christ, that God accepts when you have it, to give you the new birth.
Your DISCIPLESHIP, that then begins, is the "walk of faith" or the spiritual destination.

 

[David H.]

Also Your opinion is that faith is like a child who needs to grow up, before God will accept this faith.
Well, God says....If you give Him your faith, ONCE.... He will give you the Righteousness of God in Christ, for eternity.
I'll let you continue to determine if you are right or if God said..>"the work of God is that you Believe In Jesus, whom God sent".
Proof you have believed and God accepted your faith ONCE, and for always? = BORN AGAIN, having become "ONE with God"..

False, a child of the faith needs to continue in the faith (Paul Said that, BTW Col. 1:23) In other words the responsibility (not a popular word these days) is on the Believer to remain in the faith. As a child of the faith you are going to swing to and fro between the two perspectives of Grace and Law, and this is the result of a "true heart", desiring to Love God with all His heart, Until they come to the full assurance of the faith (Hebrews 10:22) from which there is no falling away or backsliding, it is a total commitment to serve the one who has saved you. Legalism and lawlessness are the two towers of Satan we as believers must navigate between in our journey, and God does this by Presenting both as legitimate yet flawed so that we do not commit to them along the way, and keep our eyes on Christ who is both grace and Truth (John 1:14-17).

You see narrow is the way, and straight is the path.... Israel stood as the side of legalism, the modern church is the picture of lawlessness, the truth (Jesus) is the narrow way between them.... the question is are you teaching the children to walk the narrow path to full assurance of the faith or teaching them to fall by the wayside into thinking they have no responsibility themselves to work out their faith with fear and trembling by pushing a doctrine that causes them not to continue and grow in the faith? (That is a rhetorical question between you and God)

You live in Israel, and see and deal with the legalistic side of the equation more than I do in the U.S. where the "grace as a license to sin" attitude is prevalent (Watching any of the U.S. televangelists will show you this fact) You see the legalistic cults easily, but do you see the "grace cults" as well? If you truly want to be a teacher for the truth you need to see both sides.... both of Satan's two towers.

 

[Behold]

False, a child of the faith needs to continue in the faith (Paul Said that, BTW Col. 1:23) In other words the responsibility (not a popular word these days) is on the Believer to remain in the faith.

It is your responsibility to please God, And "without faith its impossible to please God".
You are to make certain you are in the right faith., however., Paul teaches.
And JUDE told you that you are to contend for the REAL faith.........
So, all this is showing you that you can have a wrong faith.

How would you know?

A.) If your faith is wrong or broken, then you will believe that you can lose your salvation.

Thats the proof you have become a Legalist (self saver) and do not believe that God keeps you saved, when He said He would.
He even says He will be faithful to COMPLETE IT. = Your Salvation

Philippians 1:6

And your faith... that God has accepted, is now resolved by Jesus. Hebrews 12:2

 

[David H.]

And JUDE told you that you are to contend for the REAL faith.........

Yes, and who was Jude contending with? Those who turn the grace of God in lasciviousness. (Jude 1:4) AKA the "grace cults"

You see church history itself is dotted with these swings between law and grace, Bondage and liberty, just like the Journey of the believer is. It is in fellowship that we grow as believers not in condemnation of those who are telling us to be careful of falling to the other extreme. When we "arrive at truth" is when we have matured in Christ Jesus, who is both grace and Truth (John 1:17) Grace forgives, is merciful and atones, Truth convicts, transform and makes us grow in Christ Jesus. One without the other is like being half a believer.... (Partial belief), which is a stench to the nostrils of God....

 

[Behold]

Yes, and who was Jude contending with? Those who turn the grace of God in lasciviousness. (Jude 1:4) AKA the "grace cults"

That is exactly what the verse does not teach, but the OSAS obsessed, have been led to believe.

Here is the verse explained.

They have turned the Grace of God.........

THEY< the deceivers, have TWISTED, the GRACE of GOD, ... into the idea that God's Grace, as rightly understood as "without works", "the Gift of Righteousness"..........they have subverted that, into the idea that The REAL Grace of God, is "license to sin".

So, its not the Believers who believe that Grace is a License, as they dont.
Its the Devil's ministers who have tried to subvert God's Grace, into the idea that its License to Sin, so that you will never understand God's Grace, if you are deceived by this idea that God's Grace is a sinning license.

 

[marks]

So, its not the Believers who believe that Grace is a License, as they dont.

The inconvenient FACT.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

The inconvenient FACT.

Much love!

God help them to see it.

Ive written a Thread here on the Forum, about the Whore who washed Jesus's Feet with her tears and wiped them clean, with her hair.
The legalists who were scoffing and growling about..>"why does THE JESUS, let this piece of filth touch Him"., had no clue.
The OSAS Legalists still dont today.

Christ explains....>"she is doing this because She is forgiven MUCH"...

And that is WHY........the person who comes to understand the Grace of God as "God keeps me saved"..... works harder, and loves more, then the person who is trying to stay saved.. and has faith in self and broken faith in Christ.
Its because the REAL FAITH, is like that woman who is Forgiven much.......
And the broken faith, is like those Pharisees, who can't understand why someone would love Jesus so much, that they'd crawl to Jesus and cry on His feet.

 

[David H.]

That is exactly what the verse does not teach, but the OSAS obsessed, have been led to believe.

Here is the verse explained.

They have turned the Grace of God.........

THEY< the deceivers, have TWISTED, the GRACE of GOD, ... into the idea that God's Grace, as rightly understood as "without works", "the Gift of Righteousness"..........they have subverted that, into the idea that The REAL Grace of God, is "license to sin".

So, its not the Believers who believe that Grace is a License, as they dont.
Its the Devil's ministers who have tried to subvert God's Grace, into the idea that its License to Sin, so that you will never understand God's Grace, if you are deceived by this idea that God's Grace is a sinning license.

The OSAS Legalists still dont today.

OSAS supporters and legalists are two opposite ends of the spectrum, there is no such thing as an "OSAS legalist" as this is an oxymoron.
Lasciviousness literally means lawlessness. In fact here is the definition....

1. unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence

 

[Behold]

OSAS supporters and legalists

They are in fact the same deceived.

See, you are a legalist, defined by yourself as a person who believes that you can lose your Salvation.
This means you have no FAITH IN CHRIST to get you to heaven.... = you do not believe that GOD or CHRIST keep you saved.
See that?
Thats YOUR self saving RELIGION. and its 100% "anti-osas" = LEGALISM.

 

[Episkopos]

They are in fact the same deceived.

See, you are a legalist, defined by yourself as a person who believes that you can lose your Salvation.
This means you have no FAITH IN CHRIST to get you to heaven.... = you do not believe that GOD or CHRIST keep you saved.
See that?
Thats YOUR self saving RELIGION. and its 100% "anti-osas" = LEGALISM.

Just because somebody doesn't jump into one extreme doesn't mean they have adopted the other. An unbalanced person sees anyone who is not in their extreme as being in another extreme. So then balance cannot be discerned from an extreme.

False accusations ensue.

 

[David H.]

They are in fact the same deceived.

See, you are a legalist, defined by yourself as a person who believes that you can lose your Salvation.
This means you have no FAITH IN CHRIST to get you to heaven.... = you do not believe that GOD or CHRIST keep you saved.
See that?
Thats YOUR self saving RELIGION. and its 100% "anti-osas" = LEGALISM.

The fact that you equate OSAS and legalist shows your inability to comprehend the two sides of the spectrum.

As for your false accusation against me of being a legalist shows you do not read my comments and only dwell on one line you feel you can pick apart. all this shows is a lack of maturity and mental capacity to process people's beliefs and thoughts.

My Beliefs BTW are that I believe in eternal security of the saint. We are saved by grace sanctified by grace and perfected by grace.... We are His workmanship, In other words he does the work in us, we just have to let him..... (Ephesians 2:10) The ways we let Him do His work in us are by submission, surrender, and repentance.... (James 4:7, Romans 8:13, 2 Peter 3:9) These are all concepts your doctrine neglects, I wonder why?

 

[David H.]

Just because somebody doesn't jump into one extreme doesn't mean they have adopted the other. An unbalanced person sees anyone who is not in their extreme as being in another extreme. So then balance cannot be discerned from an extreme.

False accusations ensue.

Well said.

 

[Behold]

Just because somebody doesn't jump into one extreme doesn't mean they have adopted the other. An unbalanced person sees anyone who is not in their extreme as being in another extreme. So then balance cannot be discerned from an extreme.

Paul teaches that if you have lost Real Faith, then you are 'fallen from Grace". and are "bewitched", and "in the Flesh".
(See Galatians for that update)

Evidence of this in a "christian's life'.

Q.) Do you believe you can lose your Salvation?

A.) LEGALISM = Yes, i dont believe that Jesus keeps me saved, i believe i have to do it, and i have a list of Do's and Dont's, that are my means of trying to save myself and keep myself saved.

What List?

1.) water baptism
2. ) keeping commandments and law
3.) desperately holding unto my faith as my Savior, instead of knowing and always believing that Christ always keeps me saved.
4.) believing that a cookie and some juice and some "abracadabra" performed by a cult of mary Priest, is now become GOD, and i eat Him.
5.) enduring to the end
6.) trying to abide in Christ, while absolutely not understanding what this actually means
7.) trying not to become a branch that gets burned
8.) Hoping that my candlestick isnt take away

 

[Episkopos]

Paul teaches that if you have lost Real Faith, then you are 'fallen from Grace". and are "bewitched", and "in the Flesh".

Evidence of this in a "christian's life'.

Q.) Do you believe you can lose your Salvation?

The problem is that you are imposing your own way of thinking on eternal ideas. Falling from grace means we are just walking as any other human...in our own weaknesses. Salvation from that understanding means a salvation from sin into an eternal walk in resurrection life. That's what it means to be "under grace." How many are truly under grace? Very few. True Christianity is not a religion about what we can do or what we avoid doing. It's about resurrection life. In Him is no sin.

A.) LEGALISM = Yes, i dont believe that Jesus keeps me saved, i believe i have to do it, and i have a list of Do's and Dont's, that are my means of trying to save myself and keep myself saved.

What List?

1.) water baptism
2. ) keeping commandments and law
3.) desperately holding unto my faith as my Savior, instead of knowing that Christ keeps me saved.
4.) believing that a cookie and some juice and some "abracadabra" performed by a cult of mary Priest, is now become GOD, and i eat Him.
5.) enduring to the end
6.) trying to abide in Christ, not understanding what this actually means

You don't realize how much of a legalist you are...

You have merely swapped out one set of do's and don'ts for another. Modern legalists are into mental beliefs instead of physical requirements. Modern Pharisees harp on what not to do and what to believe as if God gives grace to the doctrinally accurate.

One has to specify whether salvation means to be presently walking beyond the pull of sin and the world by abiding in Christ...OR...a future inheritance into the next age.

BTW we are to endure to the end to be eternally saved.

 

[Behold]

The problem is that you are imposing your own way of thinking on eternal ideas.

BTW we are to endure to the end to be eternally saved.

Thank you for your opinion.

And you believe that Jesus does not keep you saved.
Instead, you believe that you are to do a WORK, which is to ENDURE< as that is not Jesus Saving you, that is your faith in yourself to try to get to heaven.
Thats your Legalism, defined.

SELF SAVER.
See that?

"Here is what i DO">.... and that is not Trusting in Christ, and maybe you can comprehend that, but i dont count on it.

 

[Episkopos]

Thank you for your opinion.

You're welcome

And you believe that Jesus does not keep you saved.

Why do you worry over what will happen to you on judgment day. The only thing you can do is to fear the Lord and remain humble. No one knows their own ways. Only God can see us as we are. So then to judge yourself saved is as a bad as to judge yourself condemned. Do you realize how many people that are religiously smug will be weeping and gnashing their teeth when all is revealed?

Do you operate by love towards every one here? Why not? If you were so saved wouldn't everyone think of you as being just like Jesus? Or do you entertain a religious flesh by pushing an ideological agenda without love? Do you see what I'm saying? Claiming things is pointless...except to claim to be an unprofitable servant. The rest is just an annoying clanging sound of the flesh trying to be more than it is.

Instead, you believe that you are to do a WORK, which is to ENDURE< as that is not Jesus Saving you, that is your faith in yourself to try to get to heaven.
Thats your Legalism, defined.

SELF SAVER.
See that?

"Here is what i DO">.... and that is not Trusting in Christ, and maybe you can comprehend that, but i dont count on it.

trusting in Christ to save you and your flesh? Don't count on it. We can KNOW we are saved when the outer man is crucified so that we don't sin..and instead walk in the light of His eternal love. Is that what you experience every day? Are you filled to overflowing with divine love and peace? When a person's walk reflects the love of Christ it is OTHERS that attest to that person being saved. Having to argue your own salvation among others shows that it is self-generated/.

See that?

As for the ultimate judgment....there will be some BIG surprises. Many who say they are saved will be rejected...and the humble who think they have no value at all...will be shown mercy.

God gives grace to the humble.