Believers stay righteous through their obedience

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Helen

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not, yes
ha ya, i get you. suits me fine though, i got nothing to teach anyone tbh.

Not true ...you have often provoked me to think and check things out. Plus I have learned some things from you..( even if it is wadr...and things like that :) )

BTW, when you quote about man 'taking up his cross and following the Lord. ' Are you referring to our commitment to following Christ even if it takes us to death? Plus our commitment to allow His to lead us out of this world into the Spirit so that our old man dies that Christ can shine through?

I see you so often quote it...and I usually "like" it,... but just now I wondered if we are close in how we see that verse and see it anywhere close to each other?
 

Helen

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So long Zac!

Agree. A person cannot have a real 'discussion' when there is not a 'two-way' street in searching for the truth. The Holy Spirit cannot show anything to a person who already is so sure that they know it all.

Praise God for "Christ in you" the ONE who can and did keep the Law. And us, hidden in Him who IS the Law.
For God IS love.

Bless you Frank. :) ......H
 

amadeus

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Not true ...you have often provoked me to think and check things out. Plus I have learned some things from you..( even if it is wadr...and things like that :) )

BTW, when you quote about man 'taking up his cross and following the Lord. ' Are you referring to our commitment to following Christ even if it takes us to death? Plus our commitment to allow His to lead us out of this world into the Spirit so that our old man dies that Christ can shine through?

I see you so often quote it...and I usually "like" it,... but just now I wondered if we are close in how we see that verse and see it anywhere close to each other?

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." Matt 16:24-25


Notice the context, Helen! To me it does not say to take our cross after salvation in order to receive special rewards on top of salvation. It is saying rather that in order to be saved at all, in order to follow Jesus really, we must deny self and take up our cross and then follow him. Before Jesus made a way to follow him it really was not possible for any man. Jesus made it possible for a person to choose the right way and then to go that way. This means denying self and taking upon ourselves our own burden [our cross] and following as he leads. Until he opened up the way and God provided the direction and strength through the Holy Spirit and the Word no one could do it... that is to say, no one could be saved.
 
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Helen

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"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." Matt 16:24-25


Notice the context, Helen! To me it does not say to take our cross after salvation in order to receive special rewards on top of salvation. It is saying rather that in order to be saved at all, in order to follow Jesus really, we must deny self and take up our cross and then follow him. Before Jesus made a way to follow him it really was not possible for any man. Jesus made it possible for a person to choose the right way and then to go that way. This means denying self and taking upon ourselves our own burden [our cross] and following as he leads. Until he opened up the way and God provided the direction and strength through the Holy Spirit and the Word no one could do it... that is to say, no one could be saved.

Hey John.
No, I don't agree...if I am reading your thread correctly.

Matt 16: 23
24 "Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
"

Jesus was speaking to his believers , not to unbelievers.
It is a call to follow Him into the depths of all that He is...and to our putting away of all that we are.
It is a commitment to the death of self.

When Jesus picked up that crossbeam it was a sign of no going back..but full surrender to the nth degree before Him...
He calls us to walk in His footsteps ....commitment with a capitol C.
The Cross = death.
Nothing to do with rewards , but everything to do with love.
 

amadeus

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Hey John.
No, I don't agree...if I am reading your thread correctly.

Matt 16: 23
24 "Then said Jesus unto His disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
"

Jesus was speaking to his believers , not to unbelievers.
It is a call to follow Him into the depths of all that He is...and to our putting away of all that we are.
It is a commitment to the death of self.

When Jesus picked up that crossbeam it was a sign of no going back..but full surrender to the nth degree before Him...
He calls us to walk in His footsteps ....commitment with a capitol C.
The Cross = death.
Jesus came to bring Life, but until he had laid down his own life and the Holy Spirit had been poured out the Way remained closed. and no one had the power to walk that Way. All of those to whom he spoke to were following him only in the flesh. When Jesus was arrested, they all ran away. Spiritually they were all still dead. They still believed only what they were able to see with their carnal eyes. They still had no "eyes to see" nor any "ears to hear".

Yet, I don't expect you to suddenly change your mind at this point. Only God gives any increase to you or to me.
 

justbyfaith

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but you cannot respond to why you would need to pick up your cross and follow if your beliefs are true?

so wadr i don't even have to consider whether or not to believe you, see, i mean metaphorically speaking i can barely even hear you over the cannon shots, every time you have to duck your head down?

"Take up your cross and follow Jesus" simply means that when we receive Jesus as the Lord of our lives, His love is the Lord of our lives. And His love translates into the acronym JOY--Jesus, Others, You. When we put Christ first, others second, and ourselves last, it amounts to love--taking up our crosses and following Him. That is what love entails and what being a disciple of Jesus means--denying self, putting self last, taking up our own proverbial cross.


And we receive His love as the result of a simple faith in what He did for us (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

that is what we are taught, yes, but that is obviously not what Christ Himself teaches.

Jesus was a minister of the circumcision (which means that Paul's ministry was later since it was to the uncircumcision; and therefore Jesus did not minister the same things that Paul did after the coming of the Holy Spirit); and also, He said that the Holy Spirit would come later and relate what He could not relate to them as of yet because they were unable to bear it while He was walking the earth. And therefore what Christ did not teach, the Holy Spirit taught later through the apostles...and therefore the things that were taught later but which Christ did not Himself teach are indeed valid as a form of teaching.
 
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mjrhealth

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20No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die. This scripture has not been annulled, mjr
So let me get this straight. You have no faith in God, you dont believe Jesus died for your sins, which is what Christianity is all about, and you are determined to save yourself. So why are you here. I can only assume as another did, that you have a big fishing Rod.

Heb_3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
 

mjrhealth

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your current def of 'saved' is Death, More Abundantly mjr, and the only reason i keep replying to you? Is so you can keep ignoring posts like these, so that we two can then demonstrate the lack of "Circuit" in our conversations, see, i directly address your posts, and you leave? notice yet how that keeps happening? ha, maybe you haven't noticed that yet, i dunno
Point is you have no faith, so any point in us discussing. Than when you wake up and realise it is your life you are playing with, maybe than you might get some. As for death I hope you never find out what death is, only way i can put it is to get into a cold bath of water, in complete darkness and no sound. That is what death is, absence of God, no light.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

why so many choose to death, I dont know.
 

mjrhealth

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Point is you have no faith, so any point in us discussing. Than when you wake up and realise it is your life you are playing with, maybe than you might get some. As for death I hope you never find out what death is, only way i can put it is to get into a cold bath of water, in complete darkness and no sound. That is what death is, absence of God, no light.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

why so many choose to death, I dont know.

as for running away, this forum is good for my weight loss, some posts I read make me want to throw up. Especially out other friend. Wonder what religion you belong tooo.
 

bbyrd009

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Are you referring to our commitment to following Christ even if it takes us to death?
um, sure, ya, bc after all that is the first characterization that generally comes to mind when i say "Christian" right.

Let's be honest, we mostly revile the ppl who do that, the Colin Ks and Gandhis of the world?
Plus our commitment to allow His to lead us out of this world into the Spirit so that our old man dies that Christ can shine through?
wadr i can't find any "lead us out of this world," imo that is mostly coming from the dead old men that post here etc.

your old man is supposed to die @ baptism i guess
I see you so often quote it...and I usually "like" it,... but just now I wondered if we are close in how we see that verse and see it anywhere close to each other?
ok, this was my first alert this am and i've been stuck here since 7:30 lol, i guess bc i am being led into testifying about myself, and so it's not coming out right. If you could say why you wondered just now maybe that would help, but imo any differences in our povs can prolly be summed up in this Q, the Q that no one wants to answer btw, "If Jesus died for our sins, then why are we commanded to pick up our crosses and follow?"
 
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bbyrd009

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So let me get this straight.
oh goody, another "let me totally ignore your point and over-ride you again," woo-hoo

i'd ask why you are quoting me, but you aren't even reading this i guess, so why bother
why so many choose to death, I dont know.
no one is as holy as you are i guess mjr, who else has so much faith that they do not need to confess sin or contemplate their works? Not me
Point is you have no faith
point is you can't answer my simple question, mjr,
so accuse me all you like to deflect if you need to, ok with me
have a nice day
 
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Zachary

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Agree. A person cannot have a real 'discussion' when there is not a 'two-way' street in searching for the truth. The Holy Spirit cannot show anything to a person who already is so sure that they know it all.
Agree. I'm not searching for the truth.
Because I believe the Lord has already given it to me.
And I'm simply wanting to share what I see in the NT to be the truth.
After all, the Holy Spirit was given to us to lead us into all truth.
What's wrong with the situation I'm in?
 

Zachary

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"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it." Matt 16:24-25

Notice the context, Helen! To me it does not say to take our cross after salvation in order to receive special rewards on top of salvation. It is saying rather that in order to be saved at all, in order to follow Jesus really, we must deny self and take up our cross and then follow him.
Amen, brother, you're seein' it A-OK.
Sadly, we're livin' in an age where many people can't read and understand much of anything!
 
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bbyrd009

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The Holy Spirit cannot show anything to a person who already is so sure that they know it all.
Agree. I'm not searching for the truth.
Because I believe the Lord has already given it to me.
Jesus Christ, man, get a clue
for your own sake, ok

assuming you are being serious there, maybe you were being facetious and i missed it or something...doesn't look like though

you are actually attempting to be serious with this, lol
yet you are telling jokes now, see, on yourself?
if you agree that The Holy Spirit cannot show anything to a person who already is so sure that they know it all, and you believe the Lord has already given it all to you, i mean then where are you in concept #1 there bro? You might at least tie your shoes, ok?
Sadly, we're livin' in an age where many people can't read and understand much of anything!
lol, no kidding, this is so priceless i'm stealin' it! :D
 
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justbyfaith

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You said:

If you could say why you wondered just now maybe that would help, but imo any differences in our povs can prolly be summed up in this Q, the Q that no one wants to answer btw, "If Jesus died for our sins, then why are we commanded to pick up our crosses and follow?"

But I had already responded with:

"Take up your cross and follow Jesus" simply means that when we receive Jesus as the Lord of our lives, His love is the Lord of our lives. And His love translates into the acronym JOY--Jesus, Others, You. When we put Christ first, others second, and ourselves last, it amounts to love--taking up our crosses and following Him. That is what love entails and what being a disciple of Jesus means--denying self, putting self last, taking up our own proverbial cross.


And we receive His love as the result of a simple faith in what He did for us (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

If you think for a little while I believe that you might be able to see how this is an adequate answer to your question. But then again, maybe it has and/or is going to go over your head because of the principle in 1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27.
 

mjrhealth

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no one is as holy as you are i guess mjr, who else has so much faith that they do not need to confess sin or contemplate their works? Not me
Holy, there is only one that is Holy, there is only one that is righteous, that is Christ Jesus, no man will ever enter into heaven by his works, no one will ever become righteous by his works, So why are you so upset.. How does one answer someone who has no faith in God, that is what Christianity is all about.

You are so busy trying to save yourself you are neglecting the one who has paid the price for you.

You want Holiness , go to Christ,
you want righteousness - go to Christ
you want salvation - go to Christ
you want truth- go to Christ He is the truth in Him there is no lie
you want faith - go to Christ
you forgiveness of your sin - no longer to be condemned by them go to Christ

that is what Christianity is all about, and to quote the most neglected line is the bible

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

it is your doing bbyrd no one elses. If you choose that path without Christ than your problems are your own.
 

bbyrd009

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fwiw if you both aspire to be oracles, then maybe you could practice on each other? i mean you don't need me if you aren't going to respond to me, right, and i am not inclined to frustrate your desire to preach any more than it apparently already is, which i guess sounds mean or whatever so i apologize for that ok

i mean go get ordained already, it isn't like it's hard or anything
 

mjrhealth

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It is saying rather that in order to be saved at all, in order to follow Jesus really, we must deny self and take up our cross and then follow him.

If you read the 4 gospels in 3 out of 4 Jesus never carried His cross

Mat_27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
Mar_15:21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
Luk_23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
It is only John who makes no mention of Simon

Joh 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
Joh 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

But we never carry our "cross" as Christ has already carried it for us, and will do

Mat_11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

and it is not for salvation it is for this

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Because Christ is the way and that path is narrow. That path is after the cross , the cross is a place of death

Gal_3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus did it all, once you die on that cross, it is no longer a part of your life it is no longer in your vision as you set you eyes straight to look upon Him the author and finisher of your faith, and this is where than you are

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

no more condemnation your life is than in Him.

Remember Jesus only choose 12 disciples, this was the path laid out for them it isnt any fun just look at what happened to them, and those that walked away, didnt want the path, doesnt , mean they where not saved, this just wasnt for them.

God bless
 

mjrhealth

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fwiw if you both aspire to be oracles, then maybe you could practice on each other? i mean you don't need me if you aren't going to respond to me, right, and i am not inclined to frustrate your desire to preach any more than it apparently already is, which i guess sounds mean or whatever so i apologize for that ok
The NT shows you the way, you simply reject it at every turn, you laugh at us, ridicule all we say, make light heart of all, than complain we dont answer you?? You choose your path, if God and the works of Christ cant sway you, than no way in the world we can