Bible alone?

[theefaith]

He continues his ministry through all believers, He did not set up a hierarchy, but a brotherhood, we are all brethren. This is a hard concept for people who have been indoctrinated into Christendom, (whether protestant or catholic)It means not relaying on priests and men to feed you, but to eat the meat of word yourself, to bear full responsibility for your own Spiritual life. A Shepherd guides the sheep from the rear, Points them to greener pasture, they still as sheep have to walk there with their own feet, and feed themselves. Sheep were not meant to sit in buildings being fed from troughs, but to graze in the pastures. Does this make sense?

You are assuming the keys to the kingdom were given to a select few, They were given to all the brethren. The first attitude leads to exclusivity and elitism, and hierarchy, the latter view leads to the unity of the Spirit, and the fellowship of brethren in the bond of peace.

As a side note, I want to commend you, on your civil discussion. Many times when I bring these things up, especially with Catholics, they get offended and combative, instead you are willing to have a civil conversation. It is a good example of the character in you. Many Protestants are even offended by these notions, and they are so into their church's hierarchy and superiority.

We are all brothers and therefore have the same mother (Mary) and are equal, but the church is governed by Peter the apostles and their successors in hierarchical authority!

No not thru all, only they the priesthood of the apostles! Are you an apostle? No
A priest? No do you have the ministry of reconciliation? No

not on priests to feed you?

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

only Peter and his successors have the keys Matt 16:18

Thanks for your biblical insights and civility as well!

 

[David H.]

We are all brothers and therefore have the same mother (Mary) and are equal, but the church is governed by Peter the apostles and their successors in hierarchical authority!

No not thru all, only they the priesthood of the apostles! Are you an apostle? No
A priest? No do you have the ministry of reconciliation? No

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

Who is Peter speaking to in this passage? From the context this is speaking to all them which believe (see 1 Peter 2:7) If Peter is saying all who believe are a royal priesthood, then should we not agree? This attitude is more in line with what Christ taught in Matthew 23:4-12, is it not? So here we see Peter denying the very premise of the keys of the kingdom being bestowed upon him alone, but acknowledging that all who believe are to become a royal priesthood. He goes into more detail of how elders should behave in those local congregations, and they are anything but the way the leaders of the Vatican handle their roles, and for that matter many denominations of protestant churches.

There are levels in the faith of the individual, as clearly spoken of in scripture, John calls them "children, young men and fathers" Peter an Paul and the author of Hebrews use the terms milk of doctrine and meat of the word to describe these believers. In That respect, I fully acknowledge the need for shepherding, and do not deny this in the least. There is a time in each believers life they need leadership and authority from the church, but the ultimate goal is for them to mature and not remain suckling on the milk but digesting the meat on their own, being fed by the Holy Ghost, or as Jesus eloquently puts it in Revelation 3:20 of having Him come in and sup with that person.

This denial happens quite differently in the protestant churches. Most teach that once you are born again you are a saint, but again, scripture is clear that sainthood is a higher calling than being among the faithful. Most Catholics agree with this in principal but they take it another level in venerating the saints, and praying to them, which a true saint would never want. By Teaching that all believers are saints they deny the journey to sainthood that all believers are called to but few are chosen.

At any rate, I see problems in both sides, But so long as you declare that Jesus is the Lord, (1 Corinthians 12:3) and that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-6) you are a brother, and Mary is our mother by adoption.

 

[DNB]

Read the Link to get the whole story.

Pope Pius XII: Vatican records show he knew Nazis were killing Jews during Holocaust - The Washington Post

Thank you David, ...please don't mind if i don't read it, I already know roughly the outcome, which underscores what my position is with the RCC. Not only its recent history, but from inception, any objectively minded person can see the nefarious spirit behind that Church in almost its entire theology. Not all its members, but in its dogma and institution.

 

[DNB]

tell me then what is the one true church founded by Christ on Peter the apostles with apostolic succession

Matt 16:18 18:18

It's dispersed throughout the world. There is not one entity, anywhere, that exclusively and exhaustively holds the keys that were given to all the apostles.

Matthew 18:18-20
18:18. "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. 19. "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20. "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

 

[David H.]

Thank you David, ...please don't mind if i don't read it, I already know roughly the outcome, which underscores what my position is with the RCC. Not only its recent history, but from inception, any objectively minded person can see the nefarious spirit behind that Church in almost its entire theology. Not all its members, but in its dogma and institution.

I Pointed this out to "theefaith" as a balance to the Lutherans in Germany, not just as an RCC hit piece. These archives were opened briefly before the covid shutdowns as the article states and they make the Papacy complicit in the Nazi regime with their silence just like much of the protestant church in Germany was. With the exception of a few saints of the faith who stood up to this and most paid with their lives. If you do the research there were both Catholic and Protestant leaders who did stand up, but they were few and far between. The point being that the churches, both protestant and Catholic were largely complicit with their silence and in some cases their support of Hitler.

 

[theefaith]

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10)

Who is Peter speaking to in this passage? From the context this is speaking to all them which believe (see 1 Peter 2:7) If Peter is saying all who believe are a royal priesthood, then should we not agree? This attitude is more in line with what Christ taught in Matthew 23:4-12, is it not? So here we see Peter denying the very premise of the keys of the kingdom being bestowed upon him alone, but acknowledging that all who believe are to become a royal priesthood. He goes into more detail of how elders should behave in those local congregations, and they are anything but the way the leaders of the Vatican handle their roles, and for that matter many denominations of protestant churches.

There are levels in the faith of the individual, as clearly spoken of in scripture, John calls them "children, young men and fathers" Peter an Paul and the author of Hebrews use the terms milk of doctrine and meat of the word to describe these believers. In That respect, I fully acknowledge the need for shepherding, and do not deny this in the least. There is a time in each believers life they need leadership and authority from the church, but the ultimate goal is for them to mature and not remain suckling on the milk but digesting the meat on their own, being fed by the Holy Ghost, or as Jesus eloquently puts it in Revelation 3:20 of having Him come in and sup with that person.

This denial happens quite differently in the protestant churches. Most teach that once you are born again you are a saint, but again, scripture is clear that sainthood is a higher calling than being among the faithful. Most Catholics agree with this in principal but they take it another level in venerating the saints, and praying to them, which a true saint would never want. By Teaching that all believers are saints they deny the journey to sainthood that all believers are called to but few are chosen.

At any rate, I see problems in both sides, But so long as you declare that Jesus is the Lord, (1 Corinthians 12:3) and that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (1 John 4:1-6) you are a brother, and Mary is our mother by adoption.

the people baptized into the new covenant church are the royal priesthood, but it is not a priesthood of holy orders and ministry like the priesthood of Christ and the apostles

Psalm 110:4
Heb 7:1-3
Acts 1-17
2 Cor 5:18

 

[David H.]

the people baptized into the new covenant church are the royal priesthood, but it is not a priesthood of holy orders and ministry like the priesthood of Christ and the apostles

Psalm 110:4
Heb 7:1-3
Acts 1-17
2 Cor 5:18

Jesus Christ is our High priest, which is the Point made in Hebrews. We have one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

2 Corinthians 5:18 only confirms this. Here is the full context so that you can see he is pointing to all believers having the ministry of reconciliation, Notice the "If any man be in Christ" is the "Us" he is speaking of not just an apostolic class of leaders. Which also means "We" all who believe are ambassadors for Christ as well as being made the righteousness of God in him.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21)

You see the two words "you" in italics are added by the translators as denoted in the KJV, they are not in the original text. This whole passage has "us referring to all who are in Christ Jesus, otherwise Christ only died for the Apostles, and only made them ambassadors for Christ, and Only was sin for that select few who are called to be apostles, which is not true from the rest of scripture.

 

[theefaith]

Jesus Christ is our High priest, which is the Point made in Hebrews. We have one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

2 Corinthians 5:18 only confirms this. Here is the full context so that you can see he is pointing to all believers having the ministry of reconciliation, Notice the "If any man be in Christ" is the "Us" he is speaking of not just an apostolic class of leaders. Which also means "We" all who believe are ambassadors for Christ as well as being made the righteousness of God in him.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21)

You see the two words "you" in italics are added by the translators as denoted in the KJV, they are not in the original text. This whole passage has "us referring to all who are in Christ Jesus, otherwise Christ only died for the Apostles, and only made them ambassadors for Christ, and Only was sin for that select few who are called to be apostles, which is not true from the rest of scripture.

So all “believers” (sacraments and baptism not required) offer the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ and can forgive your sins???

 

[David H.]

So all “believers” (sacraments and baptism not required) offer the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ and can forgive your sins???

Only God can forgive sins, We are to offer the reconciliation of Christ to all, we are all called to preach the Gospel, We are all called to be ambassadors of Christ, and we are all called to forgive those who have offended us and restore them to their rightful relationship should they repent, But the Forgiveness of sins and the washing is Of God by the Blood of the Lamb. The Ministry of reconciliation is done by all who are in Christ Jesus, not just a select few. All of us can point people to the cross, and preach the Gospel in our life. It is not just the job of the Apostolic class. Each of us are given gifts of the Spirit to accomplish this through our testimony, some are given the gift of teaching, others the gift of healing, others are through a life of hospitality and service, all those gifts and abilities are used for service to the glory of God not to elevate oneself onto a pedestal and rule over the laity.

Once you understand this, you will see why Jesus hates the Nicolaitan teachings so much, for they are robbing God of His glory, again, I say this not only to the RCC, but to many mainline protestants if they are reading this for they are just as guilty of this. We are not called to gather sothat we can suckle on milk but that we can digest the meat of the word of God and also to feed the sheep and bring the bread of life to a dying world for the glory of God.

As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 4:10-11)

 

[theefaith]

Only God can forgive sins, We are to offer the reconciliation of Christ to all, we are all called to preach the Gospel, We are all called to be ambassadors of Christ, and we are all called to forgive those who have offended us and restore them to their rightful relationship should they repent, But the Forgiveness of sins and the washing is Of God by the Blood of the Lamb. The Ministry of reconciliation is done by all who are in Christ Jesus, not just a select few. All of us can point people to the cross, and preach the Gospel in our life. It is not just the job of the Apostolic class. Each of us are given gifts of the Spirit to accomplish this through our testimony, some are given the gift of teaching, others the gift of healing, others are through a life of hospitality and service, all those gifts and abilities are used for service to the glory of God not to elevate oneself onto a pedestal and rule over the laity.

Once you understand this, you will see why Jesus hates the Nicolaitan teachings so much, for they are robbing God of His glory, again, I say this not only to the RCC, but to many mainline protestants if they are reading this for they are just as guilty of this. We are not called to gather sothat we can suckle on milk but that we can digest the meat of the word of God and also to feed the sheep and bring the bread of life to a dying world for the glory of God.

As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 4:10-11)

just not biblical

only God can forgive sins? Really?

John 20:21-23
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

 

[theefaith]

Only God can forgive sins, We are to offer the reconciliation of Christ to all, we are all called to preach the Gospel, We are all called to be ambassadors of Christ, and we are all called to forgive those who have offended us and restore them to their rightful relationship should they repent, But the Forgiveness of sins and the washing is Of God by the Blood of the Lamb. The Ministry of reconciliation is done by all who are in Christ Jesus, not just a select few. All of us can point people to the cross, and preach the Gospel in our life. It is not just the job of the Apostolic class. Each of us are given gifts of the Spirit to accomplish this through our testimony, some are given the gift of teaching, others the gift of healing, others are through a life of hospitality and service, all those gifts and abilities are used for service to the glory of God not to elevate oneself onto a pedestal and rule over the laity.

Once you understand this, you will see why Jesus hates the Nicolaitan teachings so much, for they are robbing God of His glory, again, I say this not only to the RCC, but to many mainline protestants if they are reading this for they are just as guilty of this. We are not called to gather sothat we can suckle on milk but that we can digest the meat of the word of God and also to feed the sheep and bring the bread of life to a dying world for the glory of God.

As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 4:10-11)

paul says
2 Cor 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

only the apostles have ministry

 

[theefaith]

Only God can forgive sins, We are to offer the reconciliation of Christ to all, we are all called to preach the Gospel, We are all called to be ambassadors of Christ, and we are all called to forgive those who have offended us and restore them to their rightful relationship should they repent, But the Forgiveness of sins and the washing is Of God by the Blood of the Lamb. The Ministry of reconciliation is done by all who are in Christ Jesus, not just a select few. All of us can point people to the cross, and preach the Gospel in our life. It is not just the job of the Apostolic class. Each of us are given gifts of the Spirit to accomplish this through our testimony, some are given the gift of teaching, others the gift of healing, others are through a life of hospitality and service, all those gifts and abilities are used for service to the glory of God not to elevate oneself onto a pedestal and rule over the laity.

Once you understand this, you will see why Jesus hates the Nicolaitan teachings so much, for they are robbing God of His glory, again, I say this not only to the RCC, but to many mainline protestants if they are reading this for they are just as guilty of this. We are not called to gather sothat we can suckle on milk but that we can digest the meat of the word of God and also to feed the sheep and bring the bread of life to a dying world for the glory of God.

As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 4:10-11)

All may be ambassadors but only the apostles have authority to teach Matt 28:19 the people are being taught and made disciples by baptism

the great commission is only to the apostles and their successors

 

[mjrhealth]

We are all brothers and therefore have the same mother (Mary) and are equal, but the church is governed by Peter the apostles and their successors in hierarchical authority!

Mary is not my mother... still adding lies....

 

[mjrhealth]

All may be ambassadors but only the apostles have authority to teach Matt 28:19 the people are being taught and made disciples by baptism

the great commission is only to the apostles and their successors

No only those to Him He gives that authority, but you will try to justify your lie / religion as all men do.

 

[mjrhealth]

only the apostles have ministry

No only those whom he has called.... Like I said they dont walk around with flattering titles over their heads demanding people listen to them...

 

[theefaith]

Mary is not my mother... still adding lies....

unless Mary is your mother Jesus cannot be your brother!

Jesus gave His mother to all of His disciples???

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

 

[DNB]

I Pointed this out to "theefaith" as a balance to the Lutherans in Germany, not just as an RCC hit piece. These archives were opened briefly before the covid shutdowns as the article states and they make the Papacy complicit in the Nazi regime with their silence just like much of the protestant church in Germany was. With the exception of a few saints of the faith who stood up to this and most paid with their lives. If you do the research there were both Catholic and Protestant leaders who did stand up, but they were few and far between. The point being that the churches, both protestant and Catholic were largely complicit with their silence and in some cases their support of Hitler.

I see, I assumed that it was presented to disparage the RCC, my mistake.
Thank you for that brief insight, that makes a great deal of sense. ...which is the reason why I am non-denominational. That is, contrary to theefaith and BOL, Marymog, etc,.. I don't believe that apostolic succession has remained within one circumscribable entity, anywhere in the world. All denominations, despite many of their individual congregants still being saved, have exposed their infallibility, contradictions and heresies. And, I believe that the article that you offered underscores that point very well.
Thanks again!

 

[theefaith]

I see, I assumed that it was presented to disparage the RCC, my mistake.
Thank you for that brief insight, that makes a great deal of sense. ...which is the reason why I am non-denominational. That is, contrary to theefaith and BOL, Marymog, etc,.. I don't believe that apostolic succession has remained within one circumscribable entity, anywhere in the world. All denominations, despite many of their individual congregants still being saved, have exposed their infallibility, contradictions and heresies. And, I believe that the article that you offered underscores that point very well.
Thanks again!

the Bible does not teach a nondenominational church or any denominations only the one true church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18 jn 10:16

 

[mjrhealth]

unless Mary is your mother Jesus cannot be your brother!

Still adding garbage into your garbage bin, will the truth ever come out your mouth, or is defending the lies of your religion all you have.

 

[theefaith]

Still adding garbage into your garbage bin, will the truth ever come out your mouth, or is defending the lies of your religion all you have.

you cannot disprove it so just call it garbage, the truth is not garbage the truth is not something but somebody Jesus is the truth