Bible alone

[CadyandZoe]

that’s the prerogative of a peer
They are both apostles
But Peter is first supreme
And all must obey in hierarchy authority
It was Peter to decided the matter remember

Peter didn't decide anything. He was wrong and Paul called him out.

 

[GracePeace]

Peter approval is required
He has the jurisdictional authority of the keys

Peter had his mouth shut.

 

[GracePeace]

The water represents natural birth, coming from the womb. Follow the flow of conversation between these two men and bear in mind that Jesus often uses what people give him to add to their knowledge. Nicodemus was the one who first mentioned being born from his mother's womb again. Jesus uses that to make his point.

I noticed you didn't address my argument. Here it is again:

You are committing an "apples-to-oranges comparison" error.

To say someone is "born again" "of... Spirit" refers to a Being having birthed them.

Amniotic fluid is NOT a being "birthing" anyone--humans aren't male and female amniotic fluids giving birth to amniotic fluids.

The Spirit, a Being, gives birth.
Amniotic fluid is not a being, and cannot give birth.

 

[theefaith]

The water represents natural birth, coming from the womb. Follow the flow of conversation between these two men and bear in mind that Jesus often uses what people give him to add to their knowledge. Nicodemus was the one who first mentioned being born from his mother's womb again. Jesus uses that to make his point.

Water means water and baptism means baptism

 

[theefaith]

Peter didn't decide anything. He was wrong and Paul called him out.

why a council then?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I noticed you didn't address my argument. Here it is again:

You are committing an "apples-to-oranges comparison" error.

To say someone is "born again" "of... Spirit" refers to a Being having birthed them.

Amniotic fluid is NOT a being "birthing" anyone--humans aren't male and female amniotic fluids giving birth to amniotic fluids.

The Spirit, a Being, gives birth.
Amniotic fluid is not a being, and cannot give birth.

Okay, lets jump down a verse or two where Jesus explains his metaphor. This time, rather than talking about water, he talks about flesh.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." This is the same comparison as above, except Jesus has dropped the idea of water, replacing it with flesh. This is why I say that the comparison is between natural birth and supernatural birth. Nicodemus asks Jesus a rhetorical question in order to highlight the absurdity of being born again. "He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?" No, that is not only impossible, but it isn't necessary because the second birth isn't physical; it's spiritual. Right?

The comparison in verse 5 is water/spirit, while the comparison in verse 6 is flesh/spirit.

[BTW, thanks for the discussion. I appreciate it very much.]

 

[theefaith]

Peter had his mouth shut.

acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

 

[theefaith]

Okay, lets jump down a verse or two where Jesus explains his metaphor. This time, rather than talking about water, he talks about flesh.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." This is the same comparison as above, except Jesus has dropped the idea of water, replacing it with flesh. This is why I say that the comparison is between natural birth and supernatural birth. Nicodemus asks Jesus a rhetorical question in order to highlight the absurdity of being born again. "He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?" No, that is not only impossible, but it isn't necessary because the second birth isn't physical; it's spiritual. Right?

The comparison in verse 5 is water/spirit, while the comparison in verse 6 is flesh/spirit.

[BTW, thanks for the discussion. I appreciate it very much.]

let jump down to where they go to the river and baptize or Jn 4:1

 

[GracePeace]

Okay, lets jump down a verse or two where Jesus explains his metaphor. This time, rather than talking about water, he talks about flesh.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." This is the same comparison as above, except Jesus has dropped the idea of water, replacing it with flesh. This is why I say that the comparison is between natural birth and supernatural birth. Nicodemus asks Jesus a rhetorical question in order to highlight the absurdity of being born again. "He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?" No, that is not only impossible, but it isn't necessary because the second birth isn't physical; it's spiritual. Right?

The comparison in verse 5 is water/spirit, while the comparison in verse 6 is flesh/spirit.

[BTW, thanks for the discussion. I appreciate it very much.]

Yes, Christ does make the comparison between "what is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit"--but that's not a reiteration of "born of water and Spirit", it is a contrasting clarification and emphasization as a magnification of His point.

Again, to state "you must be born of water and Spirit" with the meaning "You [someone for whom it is already accepted you have been born of flesh--in the which there had been the involvement of a sac of amniotic fluid] must now, in order to inherit the Kingdom, be born... of amniotic fluid (?)... and the Spirit" would be completely redundant unwarranted unnecessary vestigial verbiage.

 

[GracePeace]

acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Uh... yeah, as I already stated, Peter RE-"PETED" Paul--Acts 15 Jerusalem happened AFTER Galatians 2 Antioch LOL

 

[GracePeace]

acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

I was referring to the Scripture

Titus 1:11
For there are many rebellious people, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of dishonest gain.

Peter was rebellious (not walking in accordance with the Truth of the Gospel), deceiving (causing others to err by his hypocrisy, leading them also to not walk in accordance with the Truth of the Gospel), and was himself "of the circumcision" (Jewish), and he did what he did in order to be a manpleaser (he "feared the party of the circumcision" among "believers"--who knows if they had actually retained the faith, or had fallen away therefrom (it seems they had) as the Scripture says 2 Corinthians 13:5), and had to be silenced (he had to be corrected "before all" and shown to be in error in order to make them STOP their heresy) for upsetting the faith of whole households (of the Gentiles who were being misled away from the Grace of Christ, causing a falling away from the Living God Hebrews 3) for the sake of dishonest gain (ie, "the [dishonest gain of the] praise of men rather than the praise of God" John 12:43).

 

[CadyandZoe]

Water means water and baptism means baptism

"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know."
Groucho Marx.

 

[CadyandZoe]

why a council then?

Good question. I would ask you the same thing. If, as you say, Peter was the head leader of the church, he would have had the final say. But he gave deference to James. But no one man decided anything. They all came together to talk about the Jew/Gentile crisis and they all reached the same conclusion. In other words, they were all of the same mind. There was NO dissent because each man was being led by the Holy Spirit.

Peter was NOT the leader of the Church. Jesus is the leader of the church.

 

[CadyandZoe]

let jump down to where they go to the river and baptize or Jn 4:1

Not yet. The talk is concerned with good hermeneutic technique. In order to properly understand a particular passage, one must understand the context. The meaning of "water" must come from within the passage itself: not from chapter 4, not from chapter 7.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, Christ does make the comparison between "what is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit"--but that's not a reiteration of "born of water and Spirit", it is a contrasting clarification and emphasization as a magnification of His point.

Again, to state "you must be born of water and Spirit" with the meaning "You [someone for whom it is already accepted you have been born of flesh--in the which there had been the involvement of a sac of amniotic fluid] must now, in order to inherit the Kingdom, be born... of amniotic fluid (?)... and the Spirit" would be completely redundant unwarranted unnecessary vestigial verbiage.

Finally, I understand your objection. Let me summarize some possible interpretations. Each interpretation pivots on the term "and", which has a wide range of meaning. Consider the following interpretations.

Interpretation A:
"and" means "as well as"
"unless one is born of water [as well as] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation B:
"and" means "along with"
"unless one is born of water [along with] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation C:
"and" means "together with"
"unless one is born of water [together with] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation D:
"and" means "in addition to"
"unless one is born of water [in addition to] the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Interpretation E:
"and" serves to express hendiadys*
"unless one is born of [spiritual water] he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

I think Jesus means interpretation A above. I gather you would pick one of the others?

__________________
*hendiadys
the expression of a single idea by two words connected with “and,”
e.g., nice and warm, when one could be used to modify the other, as in nicely warm.

 

[theefaith]

Uh... yeah, as I already stated, Peter RE-"PETED" Paul--Acts 15 Jerusalem happened AFTER Galatians 2 Antioch LOL

peter stood up
All submitted to his authority
Jurisdictional authority
Same in acts 1:15 peter stood up
All submit to his authority
He has the keys he is the holy father of kingdom of david

 

[theefaith]

I was referring to the Scripture

Titus 1:11
For there are many rebellious people, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of dishonest gain.

Peter was rebellious (not walking in accordance with the Truth of the Gospel), deceiving (causing others to err by his hypocrisy, leading them also to not walk in accordance with the Truth of the Gospel), and was himself "of the circumcision" (Jewish), and he did what he did in order to be a manpleaser (he "feared the party of the circumcision" among "believers"--who knows if they had actually retained the faith, or had fallen away therefrom (it seems they had) as the Scripture says 2 Corinthians 13:5), and had to be silenced (he had to be corrected "before all" and shown to be in error in order to make them STOP their heresy) for upsetting the faith of whole households (of the Gentiles who were being misled away from the Grace of Christ, causing a falling away from the Living God Hebrews 3) for the sake of dishonest gain (ie, "the [dishonest gain of the] praise of men rather than the praise of God" John 12:43).

2 Tim 3: 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

 

[theefaith]

"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water. And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now you tell me what you know."
Groucho Marx.

Find the secret word and divide a hundred dollars,
it’s a common word you always have with you! Lol

explain Jn 3:22 And Jn 4:1

 

[theefaith]

Good question. I would ask you the same thing. If, as you say, Peter was the head leader of the church, he would have had the final say. But he gave deference to James. But no one man decided anything. They all came together to talk about the Jew/Gentile crisis and they all reached the same conclusion. In other words, they were all of the same mind. There was NO dissent because each man was being led by the Holy Spirit.

Peter was NOT the leader of the Church. Jesus is the leader of the church.

simply that a pope never leads a council but calls the council, names a delegate, sets the agenda and at the conclusion by his apostolic authority approved or rejects the decrees of the council

 

[theefaith]

Not yet. The talk is concerned with good hermeneutic technique. In order to properly understand a particular passage, one must understand the context. The meaning of "water" must come from within the passage itself: not from chapter 4, not from chapter 7.

(Born of God) faith and baptism

Jn 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)


1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark none were saved, outside the church none are saved)