Bible alone

[GracePeace]

I certainly wouldn't want to be "Bible alone"--the codifiers forgot to include (at least) books like Enoch (whereas it was considered worthy to be cited, thus treated as Scripture, in Jude 1:14), as well as the text, probably a midrash, Paul cited in 1 Corinthians 10 "the Rock that followed them". At the very least I would want to take seriously texts the "accepted" Scriptures relied on!

Not only that, but I remember a Russian Orthodox once proved to me that I should take the Apocrypha (what Protestants reject but the Catholics and Orthodox have accepted as divinely inspired) seriously!

I do say "Scripture is Supreme" though--especially the "Old Testament" Scriptures (they were what "Scripture" referred to in the NT writings)--it's God Himself speaking after all!

 

[theefaith]

I think you meant to say OK . Oh yes indeed . WORTHY IS LAMB . Thomas said My Lord and My GOD , and as you know
JESUS NEVER CORRECTED HIM . But then WHY would HE . The WORD was with GOD and GOD is the Word . Yes indeed .
Truth is we cannot truly worship God lest we worship Him through Christ . IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH . HE who has seen the SON
I GURANTEE has seen the FATHER . God draws us to the SON and the SON reveals the FATHER UNTO US .
Yep scrips just keep coming to mind . Its good we study that bible and do so daily .
For it is the scriptures which make one wise unto salvation through FAITH in Christ .
Ps , prayer is worship . SO in essence you are worshipping them . If i didnt warn you , it would mean i didnt love you .
Just cease from prayer to them . Pray to GOD .

the Jesus is God, and Mary is the mother of God! Lk 1:43
Prayer is not worship

 

[theefaith]

lol! that is the most absurd think I've heard all week. All Christians err! That's why Jesus died--he died for our *sins.*

personal sin is not the same as the holy church teaching error Jn 8:32
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

 

[theefaith]

Jesus came to bring us a higher baptism than Water Baptism. John the Baptist called it a "Spirit Baptism." We are joined, filled, and gifted with the Holy Spirit. Mechanical, repetitive rituals are useful as memory devices. But what really matters is our actual contact with God, so that God can endow us with Himself, with His own virtue.

Water Baptism is a useful way of proclaiming to the world that you've become a Christian. But to practice Christianity requires that you connect with God, and live through him, casting aside your own independent ways. This leads us to be a witness to Him, to become ambassadors for Him.

Forget about religious liturgies. Connect with God first and foremost above all other things. Then you can practice whatever religious rituals you wish to practice, assuming it reminds you of your relationship with Christ.

the sacraments are the means of grace


Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Randy Kluth]

the sacraments are the means of grace


Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Those verses do not prove that sacraments are the means of grace. OT rituals are no longer in play. And Water Baptism merely signifies that one has chosen to follow Christ. It's following Christ that saves--not the ritual of Water Baptism.

 

[Randy Kluth]

personal sin is not the same as the holy church teaching error Jn 8:32
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

True teaching can be done by imperfect people. But it is not true that Christian teaching is perfect simply because of one's religious office.

Jesus ensured, by repetitious teaching, that his chosen Apostles would be able to faithfully pass on his teaching in a way in which we can rely on it. But imperfect people, including the Apostles, would necessarily get teaching wrong, at times, without this special assistance, simply because we are all flawed.

Peter erred in his separation from Gentile Christians until Paul corrected him. Paul thought it right to insult a Jewish leader until he was informed that leader was a high priest.

We *all* have flawed thinking, and require correction. But it's true that we can rely on the Scriptures to faithfully carry Jesus' teaching to us, so that we can be corrected when we err.

Historically, Christian leaders, both Catholic and non-Catholic have made errors in teaching. Relatively recent in history, Catholics have proclaimed the Pope "without error" when he proclaims doctrine from the "seat of Peter."

This is pure nonsense and self-serving. It serves to ensure Catholic obedience to Catholic tradition, and protects against opposition within the ranks.

 

[theefaith]

Those verses do not prove that sacraments are the means of grace. OT rituals are no longer in play. And Water Baptism merely signifies that one has chosen to follow Christ. It's following Christ that saves--not the ritual of Water Baptism.

it is Christ who saves, there is only one savior
Ez 36 refers to Christian baptism not an ot ritual notice the new heart and the spirit same as Jn 3:5 or Titus 3:5

mk 16:16 faith and baptism

it’s not a bible study but a covenant
There must be an outward sign
Acts 8 how does the eunuch know about baptism?
Why is he baptized?

 

[theefaith]

True teaching can be done by imperfect people. But it is not true that Christian teaching is perfect simply because of one's religious office.

Jesus ensured, by repetitious teaching, that his chosen Apostles would be able to faithfully pass on his teaching in a way in which we can rely on it. But imperfect people, including the Apostles, would necessarily get teaching wrong, at times, without this special assistance, simply because we are all flawed.

Peter erred in his separation from Gentile Christians until Paul corrected him. Paul thought it right to insult a Jewish leader until he was informed that leader was a high priest.

We *all* have flawed thinking, and require correction. But it's true that we can rely on the Scriptures to faithfully carry Jesus' teaching to us, so that we can be corrected when we err.

Historically, Christian leaders, both Catholic and non-Catholic have made errors in teaching. Relatively recent in history, Catholics have proclaimed the Pope "without error" when he proclaims doctrine from the "seat of Peter."

This is pure nonsense and self-serving. It serves to ensure Catholic obedience to Catholic tradition, and protects against opposition within the ranks.

the apostles are not impeccable but the holy church is
Cos it is founded by God who is perfect

there cannot be any error on faith and morals proclaimed to the universal church by the supreme pastor

Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)

Lk 10:16 He who hears you hears me...
(The apostles and their successors)

Can Christ teach error?

then the apostles cannot teach error
Jn 20:21-23
Same mission power and authority

 

[theefaith]

I think you meant to say OK . Oh yes indeed . WORTHY IS LAMB . Thomas said My Lord and My GOD , and as you know
JESUS NEVER CORRECTED HIM . But then WHY would HE . The WORD was with GOD and GOD is the Word . Yes indeed .
Truth is we cannot truly worship God lest we worship Him through Christ . IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH . HE who has seen the SON
I GURANTEE has seen the FATHER . God draws us to the SON and the SON reveals the FATHER UNTO US .
Yep scrips just keep coming to mind . Its good we study that bible and do so daily .
For it is the scriptures which make one wise unto salvation through FAITH in Christ .
Ps , prayer is worship . SO in essence you are worshipping them . If i didnt warn you , it would mean i didnt love you .
Just cease from prayer to them . Pray to GOD .

but no saint was ever a Protestant???

 

[Randy Kluth]

the apostles are not impeccable but the holy church is
Cos it is founded by God who is perfect

Obviously, this claim is in error. God, who is perfect, made man, and mankind sinned. Man's sin did not make a perfect God flawed or deceptive.

Neither is it illogical for a perfect God to produce a flawed Church. God is no less perfect when Christians, who still live in the flesh, have sin and commit sin. And the Apostle John made it clear that if we try to deny our sinfulness we make God to be a liar. 1 John 1.

there cannot be any error on faith and morals proclaimed to the universal church by the supreme pastor

Just because you want the head of your own denomination to be supreme and more like Christ than any other doesn't make it true! That just makes you biased! The Pope is no better than you or me. He is flawed and still lives in his flesh. And the flesh has sin by definition.

This isn't an insult to Catholic leadership. This is true of all denominational leaders. This is true of us, as well.

We are all, individually, part of one Body, the Body of Christ. This means we're all equally joined to one who is perfect, namely Christ. It is Christ who is perfect, and never us, as long as we remain in these bodies of flesh. This is not an insult--just the truth.

Apostles have Care for our souls
(Acts 20:28 Jn 21:17 Heb 13:17)

Lk 10:16 He who hears you hears me...
(The apostles and their successors)

Can Christ teach error?

then the apostles cannot teach error
Jn 20:21-23
Same mission power and authority

Yes, Christians can and obviously have taught error. There is no perfect denomination where perfect teaching is taught. That is pure bias, and untrue. All men sin. All men are imperfect. All men have flawed teaching.

Obviously, faithful Christian leaders can be relied on whereas corrupt and heretical leaders cannot be relied on. Still, we need to judge even good leaders by apostolic teaching. If they say "trust me," don't. Check out their claims against the Scriptures, and don't be afraid to scrutinize their lives, to ensure they are living pure lives.

 

[DPMartin]

where does scripture or Christ say
Thou art Paul and upon this rock I will built (not so called reformers) my church (singular) matt 16:18 Jn 10:16


There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9:4 why persecute me?

There is only one Christian faith revealed by God thru Christ to the apostles! ( His holy church) eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

again, which institution that calls itself a church are you talking about?

 

[Randy Kluth]

it is Christ who saves, there is only one savior
Ez 36 refers to Christian baptism not an ot ritual notice the new heart and the spirit same as Jn 3:5 or Titus 3:5

mk 16:16 faith and baptism

it’s not a bible study but a covenant
There must be an outward sign
Acts 8 how does the eunuch know about baptism?
Why is he baptized?

Ez 36 is in the OT, and so Ezekiel is using the language of the Law! It is *not* referring to NT Water Baptism, since that wasn't even done during the time of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel was perhaps indirectly speaking of NT realities, but he was also speaking to his own generation in the language of the Law, which is the only thing they would've understood at that time. So he wasn't referring to NT Water Baptism.

Again, Water Baptism and "sprinkling" by water refer, ultimately, to Christ's Spirit Baptism, which alone unites us to Christ. We are united to him by the Spirit of God, and not by rituals. The rituals are public declarations and memory devices to show what we are doing *internally.* The external devices lack any power to accomplish this internal work, which must be done *spiritually.*

The external events themselves do not carry the internal spiritual work with them. They only signify what is already going on inside of us.

 

[DPMartin]

I've done my homework, brother.

If Christianity remains true to itself, and the people thus establish a Christian State, then it is perfectly consistent in joining State and Religion within limitations. We saw those limitations in history! Extremes do develop over time.

Christianity isn't entitled a state, its supposed to be ambassadors for the Kingdom of God.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph 6:20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

There was a fine line between religious heresy and sedition. That's why there was the Inquisition. We all know how the Inquisition went to the extreme. But every Christian State has a right to render non-Christian behavior as either "tolerated" or "illegal," depending on the non-Christian acts involved. There has to be room for evangelizing those who deserve the chance to make their own religious choices.

you know just as well as anyone else inquisitions were enforcers of more that theological differences they were persecuting Jews for not converting for one thing, and much more seeing they had no one who could stop them.

Yes, the division between official Church and the State was the difference between political and religious rule. Kings shouldn't rule the Church, and Popes shouldn't rule the State. Of course there can be exceptions.

However, as a Christian State loses its vitality, and the people lose their morality, the State is used more to impose rights for non-Christian behavior. And the Church tries to impose its religious ideals on an increasingly pagan culture.

there's no Christian state under direct authority of Jesus Christ. israel is a state that was formed to be under direct authority of the Lord their God. that's it.

That sounds a bit questionable, even if it is somewhat true. People do need more than "belonging." They need *truth.* However, many Christians are indeed weak, and only feel they're "Christian" when they belong, and accomodate the culture. True Christianity, however, takes up the fight for truth--not, however, with carnal weapons, unless it's a genuine political matter.
It isn't as easy as just giving the world over to foreigners. Abraham knew his family would grow into a nation, and that he would experience God's blessing. He also knew his faith would rightfully expand into the whole world, and he knew the negative experiences that sharing the world with pagans would be like.
Yes, we have to accept the world as it is. But in embracing our mission, sometimes peoples embrace Christian governments, as they should. Eventually, after the Christian State has stopped fighting for its ideals, it will lose out to its enemies. In the meantime, Christian States do *not* have to accommodate pagans. We are no longer in Canaan populated by pagans, though we are increasingly becoming that in the West.

all of this here is obviously a concern for the world and this life in the world. that is not a concern in the Lord eyes, yours maybe, but not His.


don't you know this is the kingdom of death were all therein are subservient to the fear of death and misery. except those who have the Life of Christ which are subservient to Life and the Kingdom of Life.

its basically two different worlds. this one will end and the Kingdom of God will be capitaled in Jerusalem.

and if you think we are no longer in Canaan populated by pagans you're living under a rock. you should understand again Christians are not entitled a state, its not the job description. ambassadors are in a foreign land, and don't rule the land they are in. you're suposed to maintain the presence of the Gospel in the world until He come. and that's all the Apostles did.

 

[Wrangler]

not what the Bible says

The Bible is silent on successors. You are projecting that silence to be approval for your doctrine. I do not.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

Yea, do you hear yourself? He prepared the Apostles, not their successors. If he meant successors, he would have said it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christianity isn't entitled a state, its supposed to be ambassadors for the Kingdom of God.

God promised Abraham a "nation," which we know was Israel. God gave that nation statehood by allowing it self-governance, or rather, governance under God's laws, as opposed to pagan countries.

If you think God doesn't want a godly society, you misinterpret the entire Bible! God has never just wanted individuals living in pagan societies, although that is sometimes necessary. The goal is, as you say, the Kingdom of God, which ultimatley will be a political state headed by God.

In the interim, God has not changed--He still prefers godly societies, and not just lone rangers living in a wilderness of paganism. So God was clearly for the State of Israel from the beginning, and He is still all for Christian States.

It's just that all godly states fall into disrepair and corruption. This doesn't delegitimize the idea of a Christian Statei--it is just a statement about fallen human nature, that even the best societies degrade over time.

The whole idea of the corruption of the State as opposed to "pure" Christianity is a myth concocted by rebels who want to live independent of government. This is our natural bent, to not want to be ruled by anybody, including God! Obedience to the State was something Paul taught even during some of the worst governments in history! Paul was for social order!

you know just as well as anyone else inquisitions were enforcers of more that theological differences they were persecuting Jews for not converting for one thing, and much more seeing they had no one who could stop them.

Yes, the Inquisition and the Catholic Church both suffered corruption. It is worth telling the other side of the story, however, that Christian societies opposed other beliefs because they were seditious movements, rebels against the State, not just disagreeing with ideas, but actually taking up arms to defend their ideas against the Christian State.

Both Martin Luther and other good Christian leaders in history have erred by going too far in their hostility towards the Jewish People. I cannot defend them--they were right to oppose Judaism, and they certainly had the right to depose Jews hostile to the Christian State. But they were not right to slander all Jews as hostile to the Christian State.

there's no Christian state under direct authority of Jesus Christ. israel is a state that was formed to be under direct authority of the Lord their God. that's it.

Any Christian State that bases its political system on the Christian Bible and on its faithful practice is a State under the direct authority of God. Ruling by "Divine Right" can either be legitimate or corrupt, depending on who is claiming it and depending on whether they are truly living it.

all of this here is obviously a concern for the world and this life in the world. that is not a concern in the Lord eyes, yours maybe, but not His.

Clearly, we disagree. The level of our integration, politically, with our country's government is determined by the choice of the people themselves--not just the political system, nor just the leadership itself. When the people largely embrace the Christian religion, the leadership and the political system will reflect that. And that is what we all should be striving towards, even if it is not presently possible, even if at present the majority are against Christian exclusivity in our system.

don't you know this is the kingdom of death were all therein are subservient to the fear of death and misery. except those who have the Life of Christ which are subservient to Life and the Kingdom of Life.

its basically two different worlds. this one will end and the Kingdom of God will be capitaled in Jerusalem.

and if you think we are no longer in Canaan populated by pagans you're living under a rock. you should understand again Christians are not entitled a state, its not the job description. ambassadors are in a foreign land, and don't rule the land they are in. you're suposed to maintain the presence of the Gospel in the world until He come. and that's all the Apostles did.

The world is *not* the Kingdom of God, but the Kingdom of God has an ambassadorship not just of individuals, but also of States, at times. Your failure to recognize that is what God wanted with Israel is at the heart of our disagreement. And He wanted that well before the Kingdom of God could come!

 

[Riverwalker]

After all the “Bible alone” can’t make you a Christian

Well certainly the wisdom of men who form "Sacred Tradition" cannot save.

How are we saved by calling on the name of the Lord in faith
and where does that faith come from? Hearing the Word Of God

Romans 10:
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[theefaith]

Obviously, this claim is in error. God, who is perfect, made man, and mankind sinned. Man's sin did not make a perfect God flawed or deceptive.

Neither is it illogical for a perfect God to produce a flawed Church. God is no less perfect when Christians, who still live in the flesh, have sin and commit sin. And the Apostle John made it clear that if we try to deny our sinfulness we make God to be a liar. 1 John 1.



Just because you want the head of your own denomination to be supreme and more like Christ than any other doesn't make it true! That just makes you biased! The Pope is no better than you or me. He is flawed and still lives in his flesh. And the flesh has sin by definition.

This isn't an insult to Catholic leadership. This is true of all denominational leaders. This is true of us, as well.

We are all, individually, part of one Body, the Body of Christ. This means we're all equally joined to one who is perfect, namely Christ. It is Christ who is perfect, and never us, as long as we remain in these bodies of flesh. This is not an insult--just the truth.



Yes, Christians can and obviously have taught error. There is no perfect denomination where perfect teaching is taught. That is pure bias, and untrue. All men sin. All men are imperfect. All men have flawed teaching.

Obviously, faithful Christian leaders can be relied on whereas corrupt and heretical leaders cannot be relied on. Still, we need to judge even good leaders by apostolic teaching. If they say "trust me," don't. Check out their claims against the Scriptures, and don't be afraid to scrutinize their lives, to ensure they are living pure lives.

no pope is better that us, all are one in Christ
But the roles are different
Husband and wife may be equal but have different roles

 

[theefaith]

Ez 36 is in the OT, and so Ezekiel is using the language of the Law! It is *not* referring to NT Water Baptism, since that wasn't even done during the time of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel was perhaps indirectly speaking of NT realities, but he was also speaking to his own generation in the language of the Law, which is the only thing they would've understood at that time. So he wasn't referring to NT Water Baptism.

Again, Water Baptism and "sprinkling" by water refer, ultimately, to Christ's Spirit Baptism, which alone unites us to Christ. We are united to him by the Spirit of God, and not by rituals. The rituals are public declarations and memory devices to show what we are doing *internally.* The external devices lack any power to accomplish this internal work, which must be done *spiritually.*

The external events themselves do not carry the internal spiritual work with them. They only signify what is already going on inside of us.

Ez 36 is the promise of the father
Sacred oath or sacrament
Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[theefaith]

The Bible is silent on successors. You are projecting that silence to be approval for your doctrine. I do not.

why does Moses have successors and Jesus said they were to be obeyed?
Matt 23