Bible alone

[theefaith]

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9:4 why persecute me?

There is only one Christian faith revealed by God thru Christ to the apostles! ( His holy church) eph 4:5 Jude 1:3


Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

 

[amigo de christo]

ive said before Vatican 2 is not catholic and divine faith or a valid council nor was there a valid pope to approve it

Yes , yes you have . What still worries me is that you still cling to prayer to the saints and mary .
You must cease that .

 

[amadeus]

who is the head of the church on earth?

Consider what happened to John the Baptist's head and why... He had the wrong head so it was time for him to decrease and for his new Head to increase!

Consider also these verses"

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." I Cor 11:3

"And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col. 1:18

 

[theefaith]

Yes , yes you have . What still worries me is that you still cling to prayer to the saints and mary .
You must cease that .

show me in scripture

 

[theefaith]

show me in scripture

rev 5:7

 

[theefaith]

Consider what happened to John the Baptist's head and why... He had the wrong head so it was time for him to decrease and for his new Head to increase!

Consider also these verses"

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." I Cor 11:3

"And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col. 1:18

I think that refered to the new and old covenants
JTB of the old Christ of the new
Same as new wine
And the water made into wine
They have saved the best for last

 

[Randy Kluth]

by reading through the thread you seek to argue the validity of the RCC or Catholic Church in general.
it seems most don't do the homework.

I've done my homework, brother.

the catholic church, though catholic means universal, is the church of the roman state. an institution until at least Pope Gregory the Great the Emperor was the vicar of the church and appointed popes, east and west roman and Greek. the church of England was molded the same and the king is still the vicar of that church.

Yes, however, the Anglican Church is *not* the RCC! Same mold, perhaps? But the Catholics and Protestants did battle between Henry the 8 and following.

also part of the responsibility of the Church of the state of Rome, was to convert and eliminate pagan religions and practices.

Yes, and one thing never said in our present post-Enlightenment age is that states have the right to establish social order along the philosophical/religious lines that the people, as a majority, adhere to. Multi-religious establishments inherently have problems, and is a democratic, not a religious, idea. Of course, you could refer to it as a liberal Christian belief, or a secularistic belief, or an eclectic belief.

If Christianity remains true to itself, and the people thus establish a Christian State, then it is perfectly consistent in joining State and Religion within limitations. We saw those limitations in history! Extremes do develop over time.

so for approximately 1000 years the Catholic church ruled with an iron fist, especially the RCC. the church really didn't kick into high gear until after Gregory the Great and much of the rules the clergy follows to day were establish by him.

There was a fine line between religious heresy and sedition. That's why there was the Inquisition. We all know how the Inquisition went to the extreme. But every Christian State has a right to render non-Christian behavior as either "tolerated" or "illegal," depending on the non-Christian acts involved. There has to be room for evangelizing those who deserve the chance to make their own religious choices.

martin Luther spook up in the 1500's and then a few hundred years later the age of enlightenment came in the 1700's promoting separation of church and state.

Yes, the division between official Church and the State was the difference between political and religious rule. Kings shouldn't rule the Church, and Popes shouldn't rule the State. Of course there can be exceptions.

However, as a Christian State loses its vitality, and the people lose their morality, the State is used more to impose rights for non-Christian behavior. And the Church tries to impose its religious ideals on an increasingly pagan culture.

but in King James' day late 1500's and early 1600's there was contention between England and the Vatican and England pushed out the RCC's right to hold civil court in their territory. one of many things which included the excommunication of Queen Elisabeth the mother of King James.

now there's a lot of wisdom in what God has allowed here, RCC and KJV were neck to neck in dominating the world. RCC has all of central and south Americas dominated and the KJV or protestant if you will has its influences through out most of the rest of the world except for maybe china until Moa came in to power. the Orthodox Greek still has influences in eastern block Europe so mush as the city of St Petersburg's name has been restored.

a general wants to overcome his opponent and the best way to motivate his competitive subordinates is to basically get them to run a race to win against each other. then they have a tendency to work harder and cover more ground. Montgomery and Patton of WW2 were of that cut.

Thought that's true, the older established Churches tend to lose their spiritual zest over time, and require reform or replacement. That's what happened to Israel. I can't see Christian denominations competing when they are in the process of losing their conservative beliefs, and no longer represent true Christianity, either in doctrine or in practice.

though the integrity of the "religion" is important but in many cases like Israel's history before Christ, as long as the institution survives, the faithful have a place to be. the church as an institution need only to accommodate and not persecute the faithful.

That sounds a bit questionable, even if it is somewhat true. People do need more than "belonging." They need *truth.* However, many Christians are indeed weak, and only feel they're "Christian" when they belong, and accomodate the culture. True Christianity, however, takes up the fight for truth--not, however, with carnal weapons, unless it's a genuine political matter.

today the institution is becoming less and less accommodating to the faithful and accommodating to the ways of the world its in, and it won't be long it will persecute the faithful for the faithful's beliefs because they are contrary to what the world wants you to believe.

in retrospect its simple as long as where you are accommodates without persecutions you and yours your at peace with the world. they don't have to follow the ways you follow do they?

Abram now Abraham was a stranger in the land his whole life, and you are supposed to be of the same faith as Abraham.

It isn't as easy as just giving the world over to foreigners. Abraham knew his family would grow into a nation, and that he would experience God's blessing. He also knew his faith would rightfully expand into the whole world, and he knew the negative experiences that sharing the world with pagans would be like.

Yes, we have to accept the world as it is. But in embracing our mission, sometimes peoples embrace Christian governments, as they should. Eventually, after the Christian State has stopped fighting for its ideals, it will lose out to its enemies. In the meantime, Christian States do *not* have to accommodate pagans. We are no longer in Canaan populated by pagans, though we are increasingly becoming that in the West.

 

[amadeus]

I think that refered to the new and old covenants
JTB of the old Christ of the new
Same as new wine
And the water made into wine
They have saved the best for last

The new wine is the Holy Ghost!

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Luke 3:16

The Holy Ghost leads us and brings the Flesh of Jesus to Life in us so we can become like Him. The fire burns up everything in us that is not good. There is none good but one, which is God. If God is in us something good will remain in us when the fire is finished. Without God in us, we will be burned up before the end... nothing left. If we are not connected to the Head of the Body of Christ by the Holy Ghost, what are we, but dead in our sins?

 

[Randy Kluth]

from Christ yes in scripture to His church (apostles)

You've been told that God and the Holy Spirit are in charge, and set up leaders and gifts *as they choose*--not as the RCC determines. Certainly leaders in Christian denominations have been given authority by God to organize their movements. But there has never been one organization encompassing the entirety of Christianity--certainly not something suggested by Christ when he called for unity among Christians!

Christ is the overarching head of the Church, and not some imperial ecclesiastical figure like the pope. The Pope does enjoy legitimate leadership over the Catholic communion. But this is not to say that it is the most desirable organization for Christianity--it just is.

However, Christianity has always had several movements reaching around the world, and not just one. Unity is spiritual, and not legal. Any law that exists emanates from heaven, and not from earth. We all, commoners and leaders, get our marching orders from Christ himself, who is the exclusive source of our salvation. We are saved by *personal relationship,* and not via the Pope, Mary, or the saints.

The Apostles were set up so that being with Christ for more than 3 years they could keep their stories straight, and deliver pure doctrine to Christian history. It has served this purpose, and not some ecclesiastical tradition. None of the Apostles taught an ecclesiastical succession in one overarching Christian government.

Rather, they preached the Kingdom of heaven. This means it has not yet arrived. It comes at the return of Christ.

 

[amigo de christo]

show me in scripture

I did already . in colossians . Let no man beguile you of your reward in a humility and worshipping of angels .
YET you still deny this . By speaking the same line that prayer is not worship or etc .
You must cease from this . your soul is in dire danger my friend .
Now show me in scripture in old and new testament where they prayed to any other than GOD .
THEY did not . And yet i showed you in scripture where this must not be done . PRAY TO GOD .

 

[Wrangler]

matt 28:19-20 behold I am with you (the apostles the church) until the end

Right. Jesus is with the Apostles, not their successors. Conversely, Jesus is with all who believe in him equally so there is no Earthly authority.

 

[theefaith]

I've done my homework, brother.



Yes, however, the Anglican Church is *not* the RCC! Same mold, perhaps? But the Catholics and Protestants did battle between Henry the 8 and following.



Yes, and one thing never said in our present post-Enlightenment age is that states have the right to establish social order along the philosophical/religious lines that the people, as a majority, adhere to. Multi-religious establishments inherently have problems, and is a democratic, not a religious, idea. Of course, you could refer to it as a liberal Christian belief, or a secularistic belief, or an eclectic belief.

If Christianity remains true to itself, and the people thus establish a Christian State, then it is perfectly consistent in joining State and Religion within limitations. We saw those limitations in history! Extremes do develop over time.



There was a fine line between religious heresy and sedition. That's why there was the Inquisition. We all know how the Inquisition went to the extreme. But every Christian State has a right to render non-Christian behavior as either "tolerated" or "illegal," depending on the non-Christian acts involved. There has to be room for evangelizing those who deserve the chance to make their own religious choices.



Yes, the division between official Church and the State was the difference between political and religious rule. Kings shouldn't rule the Church, and Popes shouldn't rule the State. Of course there can be exceptions.

However, as a Christian State loses its vitality, and the people lose their morality, the State is used more to impose rights for non-Christian behavior. And the Church tries to impose its religious ideals on an increasingly pagan culture.



Thought that's true, the older established Churches tend to lose their spiritual zest over time, and require reform or replacement. That's what happened to Israel. I can't see Christian denominations competing when they are in the process of losing their conservative beliefs, and no longer represent true Christianity, either in doctrine or in practice.



That sounds a bit questionable, even if it is somewhat true. People do need more than "belonging." They need *truth.* However, many Christians are indeed weak, and only feel they're "Christian" when they belong, and accomodate the culture. True Christianity, however, takes up the fight for truth--not, however, with carnal weapons, unless it's a genuine political matter.



It isn't as easy as just giving the world over to foreigners. Abraham knew his family would grow into a nation, and that he would experience God's blessing. He also knew his faith would rightfully expand into the whole world, and he knew the negative experiences that sharing the world with pagans would be like.

Yes, we have to accept the world as it is. But in embracing our mission, sometimes peoples embrace Christian governments, as they should. Eventually, after the Christian State has stopped fighting for its ideals, it will lose out to its enemies. In the meantime, Christian States do *not* have to accommodate pagans. We are no longer in Canaan populated by pagans, though we are increasingly becoming that in the West.

One thing at a time please, Easier to follow and respond

heresy is sedition and treason against God and is punishable by death

separation of church and state is immoral and unjust

The state requires the church in order to be just

How can there be more than one true church?
What authority did the so called reformers have?

 

[theefaith]

The new wine is the Holy Ghost!

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Luke 3:16

The Holy Ghost leads us and brings the Flesh of Jesus to Life in us so we can become like Him. The fire burns up everything in us that is not good. There is none good but one, which is God. If God is in us something good will remain in us when the fire is finished. Without God in us, we will be burned up before the end... nothing left. If we are not connected to the Head of the Body of Christ by the Holy Ghost, what are we, but dead in our sins?

Or maybe the grace of God

 

[theefaith]

You've been told that God and the Holy Spirit are in charge, and set up leaders and gifts *as they choose*--not as the RCC determines. Certainly leaders in Christian denominations have been given authority by God to organize their movements. But there has never been one organization encompassing the entirety of Christianity--certainly not something suggested by Christ when he called for unity among Christians!

Christ is the overarching head of the Church, and not some imperial ecclesiastical figure like the pope. The Pope does enjoy legitimate leadership over the Catholic communion. But this is not to say that it is the most desirable organization for Christianity--it just is.

However, Christianity has always had several movements reaching around the world, and not just one. Unity is spiritual, and not legal. Any law that exists emanates from heaven, and not from earth. We all, commoners and leaders, get our marching orders from Christ himself, who is the exclusive source of our salvation. We are saved by *personal relationship,* and not via the Pope, Mary, or the saints.

The Apostles were set up so that being with Christ for more than 3 years they could keep their stories straight, and deliver pure doctrine to Christian history. It has served this purpose, and not some ecclesiastical tradition. None of the Apostles taught an ecclesiastical succession in one overarching Christian government.

Rather, they preached the Kingdom of heaven. This means it has not yet arrived. It comes at the return of Christ.

Is baptism required for salvation or this “relationship” your talking about?

 

[theefaith]

I did already . in colossians . Let no man beguile you of your reward in a humility and worshipping of angels .
YET you still deny this . By speaking the same line that prayer is not worship or etc .
You must cease from this . your soul is in dire danger my friend .
Now show me in scripture in old and new testament where they prayed to any other than GOD .
THEY did not . And yet i showed you in scripture where this must not be done . PRAY TO GOD .

we don’t worship angels

is it the k to worship Jesus?

 

[theefaith]

Right. Jesus is with the Apostles, not their successors. Conversely, Jesus is with all who believe in him equally so there is no Earthly authority.

not what the Bible says

Successors of Jesus Christ!

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the age, so the successors must remain until the end of the age) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)


Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

 

[amigo de christo]

we don’t worship angels

is it the k to worship Jesus?

I think you meant to say OK . Oh yes indeed . WORTHY IS LAMB . Thomas said My Lord and My GOD , and as you know
JESUS NEVER CORRECTED HIM . But then WHY would HE . The WORD was with GOD and GOD is the Word . Yes indeed .
Truth is we cannot truly worship God lest we worship Him through Christ . IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH . HE who has seen the SON
I GURANTEE has seen the FATHER . God draws us to the SON and the SON reveals the FATHER UNTO US .
Yep scrips just keep coming to mind . Its good we study that bible and do so daily .
For it is the scriptures which make one wise unto salvation through FAITH in Christ .
Ps , prayer is worship . SO in essence you are worshipping them . If i didnt warn you , it would mean i didnt love you .
Just cease from prayer to them . Pray to GOD .

 

[Randy Kluth]

the holy church cannot teach error or Christ would be the author of error

lol! that is the most absurd think I've heard all week. All Christians err! That's why Jesus died--he died for our *sins.*

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is baptism required for salvation or this “relationship” your talking about?

Jesus came to bring us a higher baptism than Water Baptism. John the Baptist called it a "Spirit Baptism." We are joined, filled, and gifted with the Holy Spirit. Mechanical, repetitive rituals are useful as memory devices. But what really matters is our actual contact with God, so that God can endow us with Himself, with His own virtue.

Water Baptism is a useful way of proclaiming to the world that you've become a Christian. But to practice Christianity requires that you connect with God, and live through him, casting aside your own independent ways. This leads us to be a witness to Him, to become ambassadors for Him.

Forget about religious liturgies. Connect with God first and foremost above all other things. Then you can practice whatever religious rituals you wish to practice, assuming it reminds you of your relationship with Christ.

 

[amadeus]

Or maybe the grace of God

Hmmm?