Bible Study According to Caldwell

[Butterfly]

I need to give your responses some thought, you see I have never really thought about what I am - I hear different people on here standing their ground on one side or another, but I haven't got a clue if I am on either side. I have always been open to grow, to change, to not stay rigid. My views on some things have changed over the years. The core of my faith is the cross and Jesus, which has never changed.
Rita

 

[John Caldwell]

@Butterfly ,

I think "Christian" is more than enough of a label.

Too many seek out a philosophy or a theology often, I think, because thay are not content with God or redemption.

Consider this quote from David Wells (from God in the Wasteland):

The fundamental problem in the evangelical world today is that God rests too inconsequentially upon the church. His truth is too distant, His grace is too ordinary, His judgment is too benign, His gospel is too easy, and His Christ is too common.

I gravitated to Calvinism because it seemed to carry weight with what I had been taught. At the same time it is simplistic. ("Calvinism....even a caveman can understand it" ). I stayed there awhile and God used my experience to deliever me out of its philosophical lure and I was the better for it.

I would encourage you to study and learn from Christians (Calvinists like John Piper, Armineans like Robert Picirilli, Presbyterians like Tim Keller, and so forth). But I discourage people from desiring the labels. We have to be careful when we explore vain philosophies that we do not get tangled in their snares.

 

[Butterfly]

Thank you John
Any study would be out of curiosity, I have been a christian for nearly 40years, but always defined myself as ' a christian ' - the nearest I got to labels were ' an evangelical ' because I went to ' an evangelical church ' and a ' charismatic ' because I believe in the gifts of the holy spirit. I know there are equally many on here that dont believe they continued after the time of the apostles.
Thank you for taking time to give me some info- i appreciate that x
Rita

 

[Butterfly]

By the way I have no idea who the Armineans are - that's another group I had not heard about before coming here. Xx

 

[farouk]

I need to give your responses some thought, you see I have never really thought about what I am - I hear different people on here standing their ground on one side or another, but I haven't got a clue if I am on either side. I have always been open to grow, to change, to not stay rigid. My views on some things have changed over the years. The core of my faith is the cross and Jesus, which has never changed.
Rita

I love that hymn by Anne Steele:

"O may these hallowed pages be
My ever dear delight!
And still new beauties may I see,
And still increasing light!"

 

[Butterfly]

I love that hymn by Anne Steele:

"O may these hallowed pages be
My ever dear delight!
And still new beauties may I see,
And still increasing light!"

Not heard that- not heard of Anne Steele either x
Rita

 

[John Caldwell]

By the way I have no idea who the Armineans are - that's another group I had not heard about before coming here. Xx

Arminians are Calvinists except thay believe the Five Articles of the Remonstrance (the 5 Points of Calvinism were just rejections of these articles).

Article 1
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Article 2
That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.”

Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places.

Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.

 

[Willie T]

By the way I have no idea who the Armineans are - that's another group I had not heard about before coming here. Xx

Jacobus Arminius was actually all for John Calvin's beliefs when he (Arminius) first started out.

 

[John Caldwell]

Jacobus Arminius was actually all for John Calvin's beliefs when he (Arminius) first started out.

I always like to remind people (especially Calvinists) that he died a Calvinist.

The counsel examined his views and considered them extreme but within orthodox Calvinism. He was a Calvinistic professor when he died. After he died his views were declared unorthodox (the five articles were offered and denounced).

What passes for "Calvinism" now days is just the responce to those five articles. That is one reason it is so horrible that some see Calvinism as the gospel.

 

[Nancy]

There is a lot being said here, and this is just one point.

But it should first be understood that all scripture is inspired by God "in spirit." This is the means by which all scripture came to men...and that is the key of all interpretation. That is--not by study, not by literary means, but "in spirit."

Every other form of interpretation is of men, mere conjecture.

Truth. My goodness, what did all those people of God, centuries back, who had no computers, libraries, printing press, etc. do?!!! They had the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.
Learning and studying diligently is what we should be doing anyhow as He promises to reward those who do.
Outside sources are fine as long as they don't nullify scripture...all that info out there is man made opinion, pretty much.
No Christian should be unteachable. We should be humble and always be open to truth...we can never know His fullness no matter how long we live!

 

[Jay Ross]

Truth. My goodness, what did all those people of God, centuries back, who had no computers, libraries, printing press, etc. do?!!! They had the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

It was not until around the time of the reformation that the printing press found its way into use in Europe and as such the cost of a hand scribed Bible was very expensive and out of the reach of most people's pockets to afford.

The Priest of the churches would read a passage of the scriptures to the congregation and also told them what the understanding of that passage of scripture was. Within the catholic Church around that time the bibles would have been in Latin and not in the local lingo/vernacular.

With the printing press came the ability to print bibles at a cost that could be afforded by the lower class people. Even then the number of people who could read was low and the people would gather together and listen to the bible being read to them. The other thing that happened during the reformation period was that the Bible was translated into the "common" language of the people in the different places, i.e. German, French, Dutch, English, Spanish etc. In fact the translated bibles reduced the number of the various dialects/variations of the particular language to that of the bible translation with the various languages/countries.

The ownership of bibles has come a long way since the translations first appeared.

Your statement although true does not convey the context of the past ages.

Shalom

 

[farouk]

Not heard that- not heard of Anne Steele either x
Rita

Thought her verse kind of fitted your experience that you mentioned in the Scriptures, anyway....

 

[Nancy]

It was not until around the time of the reformation that the printing press found its way into use in Europe and as such the cost of a hand scribed Bible was very expensive and out of the reach of most people's pockets to afford.

The Priest of the churches would read a passage of the scriptures to the congregation and also told them what the understanding of that passage of scripture was. Within the catholic Church around that time the bibles would have been in Latin and not in the local lingo/vernacular.

With the printing press came the ability to print bibles at a cost that could be afforded by the lower class people. Even then the number of people who could read was low and the people would gather together and listen to the bible being read to them. The other thing that happened during the reformation period was that the Bible was translated into the "common" language of the people in the different places, i.e. German, French, Dutch, English, Spanish etc. In fact the translated bibles reduced the number of the various dialects/variations of the particular language to that of the bible translation with the various languages/countries.

The ownership of bibles has come a long way since the translations first appeared.

Your statement although true does not convey the context of the past ages.

Shalom

Thank you Jay,
I was simply saying that we, Christians do not all have to be scholars to understand Gods Word

 

[farouk]

Thank you Jay,
I was simply saying that we, Christians do not all have to be scholars to understand Gods Word

@Nancy
We need the gracious guidance of the Holy Spirit, rather than a degree in theology...

 

[Nancy]

@Nancy
We need the gracious guidance of the Holy Spirit, rather than a degree in theology...

Yes Farouk, just as I said in my original post

 

[farouk]

Yes Farouk, just as I said in my original post

Well, exactly!

 

[Jay Ross]

Thank you Jay,
I was simply saying that we, Christians do not all have to be scholars to understand Gods Word

@farouk, I was not offended by Nancy's response to what I had written, nor was I disagreeing with her original post that people had the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. What I was highlighting in my post, and what Nancy had hinted at, was the availability of a hard copy bible among the people and how even during the reformation that many people's access to the word of God was through the listening to others who could read and owned a bible. Whether or not discussion followed after listening to the bible being read was/is dependant on whether the reader was speaking at the people or with the people.

Even today many people in third world countries cannot "read" fluently nor can they afford to own a bible and may not receive a bible until they come to accept Christ as their Saviour from the church they have chosen to attend. These same people may speak two or three or four different clan languages, and not necessarily any of them well. In these countries a Christian person who can read is often initially appointed as a "pastor" to lead the congregation of the people in his village. (He possibly may receive some practical and theological training/help from time to time from the church of the people who had come and evangelised in his village.) The Bible in their language, that they use, may have 200 or more translation errors in it but it is still the best means of introducing people to the Lord.

Nancy's response to my post I felt better expressed what she had posted previously. However, my post's comments were restricted only to what I had quoted from her previous post to mine and it was not meant to be in disagreement with her complete post. I was attempting to highlight the circumstances of the people in the past as to how they may have heard the Word of God.

Peoples circumstance are very different to what mine, yours or Nancy's may be, either in the past or in out present time.

And yes, God's hand and influence is in all of ours and their circumstances in His revelation of Himself to us and them.

Shalom

 

[reformed1689]

But when they provide Scripture they provide passages common to all Christians...passages that do not actually state the distinction Penal Substitution Theory makes.

Here's the thing, that's the same situation for the Trinity. Not one verse or passage clearly states the Trinity which is why I claim you hold a double standard.

 

[John Caldwell]

Here's the thing, that's the same situation for the Trinity. Not one verse or passage clearly states the Trinity which is why I claim you hold a double standard.

The reason I disagree is that I am not asking that one single verse state either doctrine. What I am asking (my personal standard) is that vital doctrines (I view this as one) be stated. I have never demanded it be stated in one verse (or even one passage).

That said, David, I am not imposing this standard on others. I hold several biblical theories that are not stated in Scripture. But I believe the doctrine of the atonement too important a doctrine (partly because other doctrines are built upon its foundation) to hold it as Scripture when it (what distinguishes Penal Substitution Theory from the other views) is not actually stated in Scripture (between Genesis and Revelation).

 

[Marymog]

Is the start of Caldwellism? Almost rhymes with Campellism.

Or Calvinism??