Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[shepherdsword]

One would have to understand the nature of being regenerated by the Spirit in the inner man. The outer man is still mixed in and needs to be PURGED out. The whole lump needs to become leavened. God only regenerated 1/2 of us. The rest needs to be cut away. The carnal man cannot be reformed...he has to die. All modern doctrine is concerned with the preservation of the evil alongside what God regenerated (if He actually did). Watch the way people here defend the flesh.

The word that expresses the "earnest" of the Spirit received at regeneration is "aravon"...actually a transliterated Hebrew word...meaning downpayment (sample)...from the root for "desert" or aravah and "mixture" or erev. As long as we are mixed with the outer man the inner man will wander in the desert in bondage to sin, and be unable to enter God's rest in the Promised land of Zion. The work of the cross is what leberates us from the outer man sin nature...so we can be fully cleansed, or purged (atoned) to enter into the spiritual realm of the kingdom. So few have experienced this because they remain a mixture ...uncrucified.

It's too much to explain....I have videos about these things.

The circumcision of the heart?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[shepherdsword]

I agree. I translate by comparison with other verses. The popular way adds in words to change the meaning. The religious agenda is to make verses reflect a previous ideology. For the organized religious factions, Christianity is a religion that has to fit ALL people by simple agreement.

What is popular is also very false. God did NOT put His Son to death. Evil men did. So then, He was made to be sin over us (by sinful men) who knew no sin (innocent from false accusations) so that we might FULFILL the righteousness of God in Him (Christ).

Yes....crucified by religious leaders and wicked men. You can often see religious people condemning the righteous because they don't understand the message. The NIV spells it out best:

Ac 2:23-25 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

 

[GracePeace]

One would have to understand the nature of being regenerated by the Spirit in the inner man. The outer man is still mixed in and needs to be PURGED out. The whole lump needs to become leavened. God only regenerated 1/2 of us. The rest needs to be cut away. The carnal man cannot be reformed...he has to die. All modern doctrine is concerned with the preservation of the evil alongside what God regenerated (if He actually did). Watch the way people here defend the flesh.

The word that expresses the "earnest" of the Spirit received at regeneration is "aravon"...actually a transliterated Hebrew word...meaning downpayment (sample)...from the root for "desert" or aravah and "mixture" or erev. As long as we are mixed with the outer man the inner man will wander in the desert in bondage to sin, and be unable to enter God's rest in the Promised land of Zion. The work of the cross is what leberates us from the outer man sin nature...so we can be fully cleansed, or purged (atoned) to enter into the spiritual realm of the kingdom. So few have experienced this because they remain a mixture ...uncrucified.

It's too much to explain....I have videos about these things.

I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, because this is basically what I said, yet you seem to want to disagree.

 

[ProDeo]

Paul teaches how to "Purge" out the old man.
He didnt need to post a video.

What Paul teaches the born again.... is to understand that their "old man of sin".....is "crucified with Christ", and they are to "reckon Him DEAD".
So, this simply means that the born again is to understand that "OLD things have passed away"....they are DEAD......= "the old man of sin".....and now having become a "new creation".... "behold, all things have become NEW"..... and the born again is to walk in this "newness of LIFE".

All this simply means is to understand that the born again is "made righteous"...."having become the RIghteousness of God, IN CHRIST".

And the born again have to get that MIND.. as that is REAL FAITH....= that understanding, and they are to walk in that Revelation, regarding who they have become 'IN Christ".

Good old Efe 2:8-10 again

Efez 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Efez 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Efez 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Works are both in v9 and v10 mentioned and are different in nature.

v10 - What if a Christian refuses or makes a mess not to walk in the good works God has prepared that we should walk in them?

What are the works is v9 talks about? I think Paul meant the works of the Mosaic Law, as he said in v15 abolished.

YMMV.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes....crucified by religious leaders and wicked men. You can often see religious people condemning the righteous because they don't understand the message. The NIV spells it out best:

Ac 2:23-25 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

It was God's express will and plan to have Jesus bruised and make Him an offering for sin according to Is. 53. I would underline where it says Jesus was handed over by "God's set purpose and foreknowledge" there in that Acts 2 verse above. In Gethsemane Jesus said to the Father, "Nevertheless not my will but thine be done".

If it was only the will of a handful of wicked men and not the will of God to have Jesus crucified, would He have accepted the sacrifice? No. He only accepts sacrifices that HE ordains, not strange fire.

 

[shepherdsword]

It was God's express will and plan to have Jesus bruised and make Him an offering for sin according to Is. 53. I would underline where it says Jesus was handed over by "God's set purpose and foreknowledge" there in that Acts 2 verse above. In Gethsemane Jesus said to the Father, "Nevertheless not my will but thine be done".

If it was only the will of a handful of wicked men and not the will of God to have Jesus crucified, would He have accepted the sacrifice? No. He only accepts sacrifices that HE ordains, not strange fire.

I agree...but the conversation is about the instrument. It was by God's foreknowledge that Judas would betray Jesus as well. It was still Judas that did the betraying. I think we all understand that the crucifixion was God's plan since it was established before the foundation of the world. This was done by wicked men and deceived religious leaders.

 

[Lizbeth]

Very wrong way of thinking. When a person believes a lie on that level one begins to sound like @Behold.

The false gospel is...you are (all) dead to sin and your life is hid with God...as something to put faith in..without any qualifiers......whether we continue to sin or not. The sin we do doesn't disprove our claims in that scheme.

The truth is about power from heaven not human imagination. Not in word but in power. The dead are not raised "positionally" but physically. All the rest is Greek philosophy.

The false gospel has no reality or practical applications...it's all ideology. It would be like telling the Israelites that since they have escaped from Egypt then they have to consider themselves (reckon) to be in the Promised Land already. But the truth is that they will NEVER enter the Promised land and die in the wilderness as almost all modern believers will do...since we are no better than them.

Will people wake up and be warned? Of course not.

It's not a wrong way of thinking.........it's the very foundation from which the rest of the building must be built upon. Without it, the rest of the building can't be built. It's not ideology but spiritual truth. You seem unable to grasp spiritual things. The promise made to Israel is like the promises made to us....they are yes and amen in Christ. God told the Israelites He had already handed that land of promise over to them before they even got there. THAT is the BASIS (foundation) that they were to BELIEVE and have FAITH in, and from which they were to take courage to enter and possess it. And now we are in process of apprehending those things for which we were apprehended......IF we are learning and growing and obeying and following Jesus and battling through the obstacles and hindrances we encounter along the Way. The treasures we are storing up for ourselves in "heaven" as we pay the price to follow Jesus are the treasures we are apprehending and getting hold of in this life.

 

[amigo de christo]

It's not a wrong way of thinking.........it's the very foundation from which the rest of the building must be built upon. Without it, the rest of the building can't be built. It's not ideology but spiritual truth. You seem unable to grasp spiritual things. The promise made to Israel is like the promises made to us....they are yes and amen in Christ. God told the Israelites He had already handed that land of promise over to them before they even got there. THAT is the BASIS (foundation) that they were to BELIEVE and have FAITH in, and from which they were to take courage to enter and possess it. And now we are in process of apprehending those things for which we were apprehended......IF we are learning and growing and obeying and following Jesus and battling through the obstacles and hindrances we encounter along the Way. The treasures we are storing up for ourselves in "heaven" as we pay the price to follow Jesus are the treasures we are apprehending and getting hold of in this life.

You will hear many speeches by some men , and this man is no different , where they will use the words
of Christ and of the apostels , even preaching truths
and YET OMIT THE TRUTH ITSELF .
IF a man has a problem with the REMINDER ye MUST FIRST BELEIVE in JESUS THE CHRIST
Then no matter how often they quoate his words , or the words of paul and others
ITS DARN evident THEY DONT BELEIVE JESUS . HE SAID IT FIRST .
Many follow an idea , but that idea has omitted the ONE thing that was necessary .
Mary knew it
martha had not YET grasped it .
She was real busy and troubled with her many works .
BUT MARY KNEW THE SECRETE . as SHE SAT AT THE FEET OF CHRIST , HEARING and BLEIEVING
what HE TAUGHT . THE secrete , BELEIVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST and ye shall work the works of GOD .
but working the works of GOD without faith , OH DEAR THAT TRAIN HAS DERAILED THE TRACK
and is headed right to its destruction .

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree...but the conversation is about the instrument. It was by God's foreknowledge that Judas would betray Jesus as well. It was still Judas that did the betraying. I think we all understand that the crucifixion was God's plan since it was established before the foundation of the world. This was done by wicked men and deceived religious leaders.

I thought the conversation was about how Jesus became sin for us. Who laid the sins and iniquities upon the scapegoat?.....it was done by the priests at the express command of the LORD. Yes He was sacrificed by the wicked for the wicked as it was meant and ORDAINED BY GOD to be........both Jew and Gentiles involved in it......in the express will and foreknowledge of GOD. I've noticed Epi has trouble seeing both sides of the coin, with a lot of things....doesn't get the paradoxes of spiritual truths.

 

[shepherdsword]

It is very clear that the act of the resurrection made us all alive in Christ. The greek word "sunezooopoieesen" is in the aorist past tense. This indicates it has already been done and is not some future experience.

 

[shepherdsword]

I thought the conversation was about how Jesus became sin for us. Who laid the sins and iniquities upon the scapegoat?.....it was done by the priests at the express command of the LORD. Yes He was sacrificed by the wicked for the wicked as it was meant and ORDAINED BY GOD to be........both Jew and Gentiles involved in it......in the express will and foreknowledge of GOD. I've noticed Epi has trouble seeing both sides of the coin, with a lot of things....doesn't get the paradoxes of spiritual truths.

I chimed in on that aspect of it in post 660 and 664. I was dealing with the actual instruments in this post. As far as 2Cor 5:21? I agree with the fact that there is a transposition of sin and righteousness between us and the Lord. I am not sure where Epi is going with his position on it.

 

[shepherdsword]

Then your answer is defacto agreement that works do not procure for us salvation, neither do they maintain our salvation, rather, they are the result of salvation for those who have been saved. I'm glad we agree on this.

Much love!

How could anyone see it any differently? If we could be saved by works then the Lord would never have had to be crucified. The works we do are a result of our faith. I have been pretty clear on this being my position in a number of posts. As a result I saw Dan's "yes" or "no" demand as superfluous.

 

[Lizbeth]

I chimed in on that aspect of it in post 660 and 664. I was dealing with the actual instruments in this post. As far as 2Cor 5:21? I agree with the fact that there is a transposition of sin and righteousness between us and the Lord. I am not sure where Epi is going with his position on it.

His goal is to undermine the truth that believers have been made the righteousness of God through faith, and that His righteousness is imputed to us without works. What I and others here see scripture as saying is that we HAVE been made the righteousness of God, so therefore we must endeavour and learn to live up to that by living out of that well of truth and life. Epi's position is that we have not been made the righteousness of God until/unless we ARE living up to it by walking in what he calls a higher walk 24/7. He has maintained that there is no difference at all between believers in Christ and Jews under the Law, unless we are walking in that higher walk 24/7.

 

[Behold]

That's why the believer is empowered by grace to fulfill the law

Jesus didnt die on The Cross to forgive all our sins so that we can return to the OLD TESTAMENT Old Covenant Law that defined us all as a sinner.

The Born again...."Are NOT UNDER THE LAW........but UNDER (God's) GRACE"...

Your theology is extremely ANTI = New Covenant.

Listen.
The LAW defines us as a sinner.......

So, Christ came to do this....

= """Jesus is the END OF THE LAW.......for Rightesouenss, to everyone who BELIEVES""".

A believers '"""Faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteousness"""">. imputed to them.

"ALL have sinned"..............so, What is the solution to this situation?

A.) Romans 3 :""Being justified FREELY by God's GRACE = through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".

"FREELY" = "THe GIFT of Salvation".....>"THE GIFT of Righteousness"..."THE GIFT of Eternal LIFE".

 

[Behold]

Works are both in v9 and v10 mentioned and are different in nature.

Before Jesus died on The Cross, a follower of Jesus was nothing more than a "Disciple'.
Jesus defined them as.. "if you keep my words.........you are my Disciple, indeed".
These are not Christians.

Subsequent to the Cross and Christ's Resurrection, we have believers who are born again spiritually, = "In Christ"....who are Sons-Daughters's of God.

So, in Both cases, you can do works works and more works...., but in no case can your works make you righteous, or cause you to become a Christian, nor can they continue your Christianity.
This is because the Christian is NOT SAVED by Works........They are saved by God, who justifies them through The Blood of Jesus, based on their Faith in Christ.

"Faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteousness"... = imputed.

This is "Justifcation by Faith".....and its the reason that a BELIEVING sinner is accepted by God and given "the Gift of Righteousness", and "The Gift of Eternal Life".

Whereas....the "Disciples" who were following Jesus around during His 3.5 yrs of ministry to the JEWS.....had no access to any of this, because all of this is strictly related CROSS of CHRIST RELATED to being BORN AGAIN.
Old Testament Prophets, and King David Saw all this, and wrote about it.
David the King, was given the revelation that God would not charge sin to born again believers, (1 Corin 5:19...and Romans 4:8)... who had faith in Christ, and this is a core teaching regarding Paul's GOSPEL and THEOLOGY and DOCTRINE.

Noone can become born again, until AFTER Jesus dies on The Cross and is Resurrected...... as this started the New Covenant that was created by Jesus's shed blood and death., as this is the Blood Atonement.
This was not available during Jesus's ministry, as He had not yet DIED on The Cross to produce it and offer it, as : SALVATION.

v10 - What if a Christian refuses or makes a mess not to walk in the good works God has prepared that we should walk in them?

We can understand the "good works" and the "walk in them" verses.......... as Paul explains it.

= "Present your BODY, as a living SACRIFICE to GOD... which is your reasonable SERVICE".

So, we see that Paul is decribing our Discipleship, that is our WALK, as a "SERVICE" to God.
Its not our Salvation........its only our discipleship....our Service., = our works.
We SERVE God, not to be saved, or to try to stay saved, but only because we ARE SAVED........having Received Eternal Salvation that is ETERNAL Life.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus didnt die on The Cross to forgive all our sins so that we can return to the OLD TESTAMENT Old Covenant Law that defined us all as a sinner.

The Born again...."Are NOT UNDER THE LAW........but UNDER (God's) GRACE"...

Your theology is extremely ANTI = New Covenant.

Listen.
The LAW defines us as a sinner.......

So, Christ came to do this....

= """Jesus is the END OF THE LAW.......for Rightesouenss, to everyone who BELIEVES""".

A believers '"""Faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteousness"""">. imputed to them.

"ALL have sinned"..............so, What is the solution to this situation?

A.) Romans 3 :""Being justified FREELY by God's GRACE = through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".

"FREELY" = "THe GIFT of Salvation".....>"THE GIFT of Righteousness"..."THE GIFT of Eternal LIFE".

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev 14:12

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor. 7:19

If you love Me keep My commandments.

Not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom but those who DO the will of My Father in heaven

 

[Episkopos]

I thought the conversation was about how Jesus became sin for us.

Jesus became sin through a human interpretation of what He was teaching, seemingly condemning the most faithful followers of Moses. The same applies today. People honour Jesus with their mouths but their hearts aren't in it...they refuse Jesus' words and condemn those who repeat them.

Who laid the sins and iniquities upon the scapegoat?.

The scapegoat represents those who are NOT sacrificed to the Lord...the uncrucified believers. The same thing as in Lev. 16 happens when the people choose Jesus Barabbas over Jesus Bar Abba. Why? They want to be free of the PENALTY for sins...not the freedom from sin.

....it was done by the priests at the express command of the LORD. Yes He was sacrificed by the wicked for the wicked as it was meant and ORDAINED BY GOD to be........both Jew and Gentiles involved in it......in the express will and foreknowledge of GOD. I've noticed Epi has trouble seeing both sides of the coin, with a lot of things....doesn't get the paradoxes of spiritual truths.

The opposite is true. You are spiritualizing away the truth because you want to be justified. You can't understand spiritual truth and types with their warnings from the Bible. You still are blind to the truth of Laodicea...a product of the modern gospel.

 

[Behold]

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” Rev 14:12

Your verse does not say that keeping commandments is the way to : Salvation.

You can't keep anything to gain God's Salvation, as God's Salvation is "The GIFT of Salvation".

Jesus is Salvation....

Christ died freely to provide Salvation, that God offeres as a ""Gift.""

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor. 7:19

Hell is filled with water baptized commandment keepers.
Why is that?
Its Because going to Heaven, requries a Spiritual Birth,....and working for God and commandment keeping, cannot provide it.

The Law and commandments, demand righteousness, and no sinner has righteous.
This is why Jesus came........
= He came to deal with the law and our sin, so that God could give us His righteousness., as "The Gift of Righteousness"..
And having recevied the Gift of Rightousness, the Believer has become a "new Creation" In Chirst".... "made righteous".

If you love Me keep My commandments.

Keep the 10 commandments as well, that Moses gave us.

However if you want to go to heaven.....here is the way there....... John 14:6

Jesus said.........."You must be born again".....and that is not commandment keeping, law keeping or water baptism.

Not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom but those who DO the will of My Father in heaven

The will of God is that You "believe in Jesus whom God sent".
The will of God is that you "obey the Gospel".
To "Obey it", is to believe it......(""""Faith is counted by God as (Christ's) Righteousness"""").

"All who call on the Name of Jesus (believing) shall be saved".

 

[ProDeo]

Jesus became sin through a human interpretation of what He was teaching, seemingly condemning the most faithful followers of Moses. The same applies today. People honour Jesus with their mouths but their hearts aren't in it...they refuse Jesus' words and condemn those who repeat them.

Who are those people?

Anyone posting in this thread?

 

[Behold]

Jesus became sin through a human interpretation of what He was teaching,

No bible verse says what you just posted.

But the NT teaches this....

"God hath made Jesus to be SIN for us"...

And notice the reason why, its so that we can attain God's righteousness, based on Jesus's Sacrifice of Himself on the Cross.

""""God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."""" New Living Translation For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. English Standard Version For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Berean Standard Bible God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. Berean Literal Bible He made the One not having known sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. King James Bible For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. New King James Version For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.