Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[Lizbeth]

Jesus's Name is "God Is Our Righteousness". Abiding in Him ("if that which you heard from the beginning abides in you"), it seems, God Himself is our righteousness.

Therefore, I disagree that God's righteousness is imputed to us.

That said, where we differ is the idea that abiding in Him is a static reality--but we've had that discussion.

It's very important to receive and understand that we HAVE been made the righteousness of God.........because the bible says as a man thinks, so is he. It is HIS righteousness and spirit in us, in our new man, that we are to draw from and learn to live through. If this were not so, God wouldn't have asked us to be holy and "perfect" AS HE IS. How could we possibly, except it already have been given to us and be in us. It is Christ in us, who is the hope of this glory. And it is a matter of growth, too. I must decrease and He must increase means our old man needs to get weaker and die in a manner of speaking, while our new man grows stronger to be able to overpower/overcome our old man and have him under our feet. In "our" weakness, His strength is made perfect.


Rom 4:3-8

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Lizbeth]

It's all imagination...and self-justification. The condemnation he shows towards me and others is based on his own refusal to repent.

People who read the bible to save themselves only appear to love God. What they love is what they think God will do for them because of a shallow lip-service. When it comes to an actual encounter with the truth, the fangs come out.

Fully reprobate.

Out of overflow of one's own heart, the mouth speaks, oh my.

 

[Behold]

If everything you're saying is true, Paul would have no reason to tell Timothy what he is telling him--he would assume Timothy had already believed and forever had eternal life.

Just read the verse.
He said that Timothy had made the "confession".
That is Romans 10:9 "confess with your mouth, the Lord Jesus".

I agree that God has given "us" eternal life, and that "we" can know "we" have it--specifically, the life is located "in His Son", and, therefore, only those who abide in Him

We abide in Him, by being born again "IN Christ".

Sowing to the Spirit is doing good deeds, as the text explicitly states.

Doing good works is doing good deeds.
Whereas sowing to the spirit would be something like meditagion on verses, or quiet time with God.

 

[Episkopos]

what is known as inclusivism .

When I hear someone who is not elect decrying what they call "inclusivism" as something evil...I marvel...

What I see is a picture (from a popular meme) that shows a man sitting on a branch trying to saw it off while sitting on it himself. IOW he's cutting on the wrong side. The branch is being cut off because it is seen as inclusivism...but the person doing the sawing is cutting himself off from the ONLY CHANCE he has of being saved.

Judge not lest you be judged. Show mercy and receive mercy.

Besides a religious indoctrination into "exclusivism" (Phariseeism)...people who have been shown God's mercy are usually merciful with others (barring the aforementioned indoctrination)

The exclusivity is ONLY for those who are being conformed to the image of Christ (the elect). Predestination is about conformity to Christ in GLORY NOT salvation. Far more people are saved than are glorified with Christ.

My conclusion is that either a person has never known God's love and mercy...or else they are SO SELFISH as to think that their sins are purer than that of others. The false gospel encourages hypocrisy of every kind....and utter foolishness.

Rather than posting pictures of a book called the bible...I suggest opening a real one and reading it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And you have the arrogance to stand before God and claim to have HIS righteousness. Laughable.

If I do not have his righteousness imputed to me as Abraham did. And as he promised, I will join all the rest of you trying to get to God by your righteousness in Hell.

rom 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Again, You want to stand in front of God with your works. feel free..

but know this. Jesus spoke of those who would stand in front of him and boast of all their works.. And he said depart from me, for he never knew them

Matt 7 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I mean, Good luck. I will pray for both of you. and the rest who follow you thinking God will accept you with your own personal righteousness

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yeah, people quote "perfect love casts out fear", but "the one who keeps His commands is perfect in love", so, yeah, I guess if you're perfectly keeping His commands you won't fear. LOL

and who has done this?

 

[Episkopos]

It's very important to receive and understand that we HAVE been made the righteousness of God..

It is important to do that is one wishes to swallow a lie whole.

.......because the bible says as a man thinks, so is he.

If a man believes a lie then he becomes a liar upon confession.

God makes things from nothing, speaking things into existence that are not. When a human does this it's called...an imagination, a lie, a dream, a pretense. Tying falsehoods to God, or making yourself out to be like God makes one a pretender or "filthy dreamer" according to the word.

It is HIS righteousness and spirit in us, in our new man, that we are to draw from and learn to live through. If this were not so, God wouldn't have asked us to be holy and "perfect" AS HE IS.

Are you being made perfect through improvement over time? Self-effort? Half-holy? 2/3 holy?

You are speaking through your hat as per usual...using vain imagination and human wisdom to deny God's power.

Holiness is PURITY that is a gift of God through blood atonement...by grace through faith...washing one's robes in the blood of the Lamb. Holiness is a change of locations...to be found IN Him.

Once a person is in Christ...fully sanctified....THEN one can be conformed to the image of Christ from glory to glory...BEHOLDING the face of the Lord.

So then people who have believed a false gospel are TRYING to grow into something that is a gift given EXCLUSIVELY to the ELECT. The race of faith begins AT PERFECTION in Christ. Anything less is a lie and a false gospel.

How could we possibly, except it already have been given to us and be in us. It is Christ in us, who is the hope of this glory. And it is a matter of growth, too. I must decrease and He must increase means our old man needs to get weaker and die in a manner of speaking, while our new man grows stronger to be able to overpower/overcome our old man and have him under our feet. In "our" weakness, His strength is made perfect.

The gospel is not on the level of John the Baptist as you suggest...of BECOMING less. The gospel is about a FULL SURRENDER into Christ who is our perfection.

Most will not be able to enter in..and these should remain humble and God-fearing without all the false naming and claiming. Such antics DISQUALIFY a person from the race...even the race of righteousness....nevermind holiness.

Rom 4:3-8

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

For righteousness, not holiness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

This is speaking of the meek and God-fearing...not the namers and claimers (Pharisees and pretenders)

 

[Behold]

I disagree that God's righteousness is imputed to us.

You've never read Romans?

This is Paul's epistle that strictly and expansively deals with the ""imputed rightouesness of Christ.""
You should initually study, Chap, 3, 4,.....As Paul teaches in many places that Fatih was counted to Abraham as imputed righteousness, and that we the believer receive the same.

Let me teach a small part of it, but first let me tell you this., from the KJV.
No sinner has any righteousness, as that is why you are a sinner. So, to be reconciled to God you have to be equal in rightouesess to God, and no sinner has any righteousness, as all they have are sins that need to be forgiven.
So, God resolves all this through Christ by forgiving our sin, and then establishing us with HIS Righteousness, as our "Faith is counted as (Christ's) Righteouenss"......and this is God giving the BELIEVER,.. his "Gift of Righteousness.".

Now Romans 3 teaches in vs 22, that the "righteousness of FAITH : is given "unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE".

So that is righteousness being "imputed". through Faith.

In v26 Paul describes this as "HIS (God's) righteousness"... because God is the "Justifier of all who believe in Jesus".

IN vs 28 Paul teaches that "we concluded that a person is justified by faith".. and this is where we learn that the result of our faith in Christ is that we are eternally "justified" before God, based on our "Faith"......and not our works.
This is the beleiver, now "in Christ" who is our Justification and Sanctifcation... 1 Corin 1:30 (KJV)

Paul then explains, in Romans 4:6, that "God imputeth righteousness, without works'., and highlights this using Abraham . Paul then teaches that Abrahams = "Faith was counted (reckoned -imputed) to him as Righteousness".

And here is the conclusion of this initial part of Paul's teching on God's "imputed righteoss"... Romans 4:24... "but for the believer also, it shall be imputed.. If we believe".....

 

[Lizbeth]

Not so. Your statement is unbiblical and twisted. (spotted with sin)

Sure there are dead works. But not all works apart from the Christian religion are dead.

Jesus taught a parable about a hated sinner (Samaritan) who did a good work. The Pharisees, hypocrites, saw that as scandalous and INCLUSIVIST...just like you. Now, change the word Samaritan for MUSLIM...and watch the religious pride get pricked.

Unlike you, God loves the righteous. And Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for Christians.

Unlike you and other pretenders here...GOD IS MERCIFUL.


Denying Christ is not the same as one who honours their parents in another form of religious belief. God doesn't care about religious beliefs. He cares about what we DO.


Laughable. What hypocrites call "inclusivism", you should say. God's way is both INCLUSIVE and EXCLUSIVE. You exclude yourself whereby you could be shown mercy if you had any. As you judge...


You deny this.


That's your opinion. If one's beliefs changes the behaviour, then that is a good thing. Human faith has no value unless it produces good works.


What do you know about lies, besides the ones you call sustenance?


That is NOT the gospel. The gospel is not about beliefs. It is about the POWER of God over sin for those who enter INTO Christ by the faith OF Christ. This is so far above your understanding...instead you rely on a formulaic and dogmatic religion that has no power but to deceive.


The "other gospel" is what you and the pretenders preach..a religious version of beliefs ABOUT Jesus and not the faith OF Christ.


This is true. Nice wording.


Good.


Not a lot of truths...but THE truth. I speak the truth without religious twistings. So then it is hard for those who are unspiritual to understand....since they rely on carnal wisdom rather than the power of God.


First believe for what? You make statements that have no meaning.

The vanity is in your virtue signalling...speaking of things that are far beyond your understanding. If you stopped judging from your own carnal understanding, then you wouldn't be condemned.

So you don't believe any repentance is necessary. If you take it that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world in a literal way and isolated from other truths, that means the most heinously wicked people in the world who are unrepentant and die in their sins will be saved and not perish. False gospel this is. I'm not surprised since nothing you do here bothers your conscience and I've never seen you repent of any of it. This is such a poisoned well, bitter and sweet - can't drink of it. It appears to me that you are fallen from grace and the only way out is if you repent, if you are able.

Please know the tree by its fruits, people. And let us rely on the Holy Spirit to open scripture to our understanding. Too much splitting hairs and splicing/dicing is of the carnal mind born of human vanity and pride, and leads to a maze of lies of man's own thinking.

 

[Episkopos]

When Jesus was among us in the temporal world He spoke many similitudes to the kingdom realm, in an effort to convey it's principles...and ultimately God's will. Now, back then they hadn't yet invented baseball. I'm sure that Jesus would have used baseball to compare realms had it been invented.

The OT is like the minor leagues (the way of righteousness). The NT is like the major leagues (the way of eternal life in Christ in His holiness).

When Jesus said that among men no greater had emerged than John the Baptist (minor leaguer). Yet even the least in the kingdom (major leagues) is GREATER than he.

When a person is born from above...it is a sample of a higher walk...a higher league. But to remain there one must be faithful at THAT level. One must maintain a good on-base percentage and a good batting average. If you fail the kingdom walk then you are put back down into the minor leagues (the way of righteousness). So one goes up and down from one league to another as one learns the ways of God in the kingdom walk. Of course one who has never gone up or down from the kingdom realm knows nothing of this training.

The minor leagues is about salvation...the major leagues is about GLORY. There is no hall of fame for minor leaguers.

The problem with the blind is that they don't know that they are blind.

Those who have learned to CLAIM to be in the major leagues...or things that pertain exclusively to the majors... are going to fail even the minor leagues...not putting in the seeking and diligence that the teams in the minor league require. By NOT accepting one's place one will NEVER get noticed and be upgraded to the major leagues.

The bible says...
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


We are not to rely on vain imaginations and philosophies....but soberly assess our present condition and reach out with whatever faith allotment we have been given. Is it a human faith?...then be faithful with that in humility and fear of the Lord. Is it a higher faith? Then run to win! :)

Peace

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you don't believe any repentance is necessary. If you take it that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world in a literal way and isolated from other truths, that means the most heinously wicked people in the world who are unrepentant and die in their sins will be saved and not perish. False gospel this is. I'm not surprised since nothing you do here bothers your conscience and I've never seen you repent of any of it. This is such a poisoned well, bitter and sweet - can't drink of it. It appears to me that you are fallen from grace and the only way out is if you repent, if you are able.

Please know the tree by its fruits, people. And let us rely on the Holy Spirit to open scripture to our understanding. Too much splitting hairs and splicing/dicing is of the carnal mind born of human vanity and pride, and leads to a maze of lies of man's own thinking.

all the signs of a cult leader

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The problem with the blind is that they don't know that they are blind.

You are a perfect example with this

The bible says...
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

so we should be more like Christ. and not like you.

of course i already knew this

 

[Lizbeth]

When Jesus was among us in the temporal world He spoke many similitudes to the kingdom realm, in an effort to convey it's principles...and ultimately God's will. Now, back then they hadn't yet invented baseball. I'm sure that Jesus would have used baseball to compare realms had it been invented.

The OT is like the minor leagues. The NT is like the major leagues.

When Jesus said that among men no greater had emerged than John the Baptist (minor leaguer). Yet even the least in the kingdom (major leagues) is GREATER than he.

When a person is born from above...it is a sample of a higher walk...a higher league. But to remain there one must be faithful at THAT level. One must maintain a good on-base percentage and a good batting average. If you fail the kingdom walk then you are put back down into the minor leagues (the way of righteousness). So one goes up and down from one league to another as one learns the ways of God in the kingdom walk. Of course one who has never gone up or down from the kingdom realm knows nothing of this training.

The problem with the blind is that they don't know that they are blind.

Those who have learned to CLAIM to be in the major leagues...or things that pertain exclusively to the majors... are going to fail even the minor leagues...not putting in the seeking and diligence that the teams in the minor league require. By NOT accepting one's place one will NEVER get noticed and be upgraded to the major leagues.

The bible says...
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


We are not to rely on vain imaginations and philosophies....but soberly assess our present condition and reach out with whatever faith allotment we have been given. Is it a human faith...then be faithful with that in humility and fear of the Lord. Is it a higher faith? Then run to win! :)

Peace

Can't drink from your well, sorry.

 

[Behold]

The righteousness of God is found in Christ. The key words are IN HIM. In Him is no sin. In Him we walk in resurrection life above sin. The only way INTO Christ is by faith...unlike the righteousness that God can impute TO US

Being born again in Christ is God imputing His Righteousness, as unless you have it, as imputed, you can't be placed "in Christ".

See, being born again, has 3 parts.

1.) Forgivnes of Sin, that is found as The Cross of Christ, that you deny... @Episkopos

2.) Receiving the "Gift of Righteousness".......from God.

3.) Being born again "in Christ'.......and you can't attain that unless you are forgiven and "made righteous" first.

 

[shepherdsword]

When Jesus was among us in the temporal world He spoke many similitudes to the kingdom realm, in an effort to convey it's principles...and ultimately God's will. Now, back then they hadn't yet invented baseball. I'm sure that Jesus would have used baseball to compare realms had it been invented.

The OT is like the minor leagues (the way of righteousness). The NT is like the major leagues (the way of eternal life in Christ in His holiness).

When Jesus said that among men no greater had emerged than John the Baptist (minor leaguer). Yet even the least in the kingdom (major leagues) is GREATER than he.

When a person is born from above...it is a sample of a higher walk...a higher league. But to remain there one must be faithful at THAT level. One must maintain a good on-base percentage and a good batting average. If you fail the kingdom walk then you are put back down into the minor leagues (the way of righteousness). So one goes up and down from one league to another as one learns the ways of God in the kingdom walk. Of course one who has never gone up or down from the kingdom realm knows nothing of this training.

The minor leagues is about salvation...the major leagues is about GLORY. There is no hall of fame for minor leaguers.

The problem with the blind is that they don't know that they are blind.

Those who have learned to CLAIM to be in the major leagues...or things that pertain exclusively to the majors... are going to fail even the minor leagues...not putting in the seeking and diligence that the teams in the minor league require. By NOT accepting one's place one will NEVER get noticed and be upgraded to the major leagues.

The bible says...
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


We are not to rely on vain imaginations and philosophies....but soberly assess our present condition and reach out with whatever faith allotment we have been given. Is it a human faith?...then be faithful with that in humility and fear of the Lord. Is it a higher faith? Then run to win! :)

Peace

I wonder if the higher walk you mention is what Heb 3-4 calls "His Rest"?

 

[GracePeace]

Just read the verse.
He said that Timothy had made the "confession".
That is Romans 10:9 "confess with your mouth, the Lord Jesus".

Yup, so Paul's instruction on what he wants Timothy to do can't have anything to do with that (it was already done).

We abide in Him, by being born again "IN Christ".

1. 1 Jn 2:28 instructs those born of Him "abide in Him", so abiding doesn't happen as you suggest (by being born of Him). If it happened that way, there would be no instruction to those born of Him to "abide".
2. 1 Jn 3:23,24 says abiding is by obedience to His command to believe in the Name of God's Son and love one another.

Doing good works is doing good deeds. Whereas sowing to the spirit would be something like meditagion on verses, or quiet time with God.

1. Even granting that, why is he teaching that you will reap eternal life "in due time"? You don't accept you will reap eternal life "in due time" do you?
2. The text is explicit that doing good deeds is sowing to the Spirit. If sowing to the flesh results in corruption, and we know that "the corruption in the world" is "through the desires of the flesh", Paul's analogy doesn't work if "sowing" is merely a disembodied thought. The entire reason why God excepts to the world is the indulgence in the flesh and the absence of love and glorifying God, Who is love, in deed. That sin results in corruption.
The "sowing" that is to the spirit, therefore, if it is to correspond to this, would be good/loving deeds--and, indeed, the context reflects exactly that (he commands a good deed, those who are taught sharing good things with the one who teaches--and, afterward, reiterates the point, saying they should persevere in good deeds).

Galatians 6:6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 Let’s not become discouraged in doing good, for in due time we will reap, if we do not become weary. 10 So then, [a]while we have opportunity, let’s do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

So, both before and after "sow to the Spirit", good deeds are the topic, but, somehow, people should believe the topic changes in between? Nah, buddy. I know you mean well, but you are malfunctioning.

 

[Behold]

So then people who have believed a false gospel are TRYING to grow into something that is a gift given EXCLUSIVELY to the ELECT.

The elect are the Jews, or the Born again.

Calvins' false theology (especially hyper-calvinists) teach that the elect are pre-chosen, and if you are not one, you are not allowed to trust in Christ.
So, Calvinism, is a lie and his dupes are liars, epecially the hyper-calvinist DUPES.
Calvinism's, "TULIP", is a Cross denying Lie, that abuses The Cross and blasphemes God's Grace by teaching that The Cross of Christ is not offered to "all who believe", but only to the "pre-destined" who were chosen to believe., which of course falsely denies that anyone can choose to trust in Christ using their free will.
So, This false doctrine denies John 3:16, and omits Paul's Gospel, which places Calvinism and Calvinist's under the Galatians 1:8 curse.

The race of faith begins AT PERFECTION in Christ.

A believer, who is born again, 10 seconds ago, has received God's imputed righteousness, and they are sanctified in Christ.
Their eternal standing befoe God, is completed., as they have received from God, = His Salvation that was finished by Christ on the Cross, and proven by His resurrection as being authentic.
And now being SAVED... having received God's "imputed righteousness"..... they begin their discipleship and that is when all the works start and the walk of faith begins......= .now that they have RECEIVED God's "Gift of Righteousness" and God's "Gift of Eternal life".

 

[Episkopos]

I wonder if the higher walk you mention is what Heb 3-4 calls "His Rest"?

His rest....yes. I watch baseball sometimes...and the players that are trying to earn a place on a major league team, I find interesting. I cheer for the lesser players that are hanging on for as long as they can...giving value to the team they are assigned to. I identify with those kind of players.

Imagine the joy when a minor leaguer is called up into the majors! The struggle of playing well takes on a whole other dimension.

Of course we can't really compare being called up in baseball with a high up-calling that comes with the profound peace of being situated where God is, in a place of eternal rest. An analogy is only an analogy. ;)

 

[GracePeace]

You've never read Romans?

Jer 23:6 says Christ's Name is "God Is Our Righteousness", so I believe "God Is Our Righteousness"--any idea of "imputation" would have to square itself with that reality. Those who abide in Him, and He in them, have GOD as their righteousness, not merely "His righteousness" "imputed".

 

[Behold]

Yup, so Paul's instruction on what he wants Timothy to do can't have anything to do with that (it was already done).

Paul tells us to put on the armor of God.
Its not because we dont already have it, its because we are not putting it on., so we need to put it on.

Every beliver who is born again, has received "the Gift of Eternal life".

Jesus Himself is "eternal life", and He is IN every believer.......which proves they have eternal life.

1. 1 Jn 2:28 instructs those born of Him "abide in Him",

If you do good works, and are not a Christian, are you "abiding in Christ"?

So, if you do good works, as a Christian, you are also not abiding in CHrist by your works.

"Abiding in Christ'.....means the person is IN HIM.........."in Christ" and that is accomplished only by being born again into Christ.
THat is how you abide...........not by works.

1. Even granting that, why is he teaching that you will reap eternal life "in due time" if you don't accept you will not reap eternal life in due time?

When you read that John said """"" you can know you have eternal life""""....... you need to believe what He said.

Every born again believer has Christ in them, and Jesus is Eternal life.

Christ is "THE Resurrection and THE LIFE".

Understand?

He is "THE LIFE", and that is why He said he "gives us eternal life".....as He is Eternal life, who comes to live in the Christian.

"Christ IN YOU, the Hope of Glory".....(Glory is Heaven).