Biblical Cosmology

[kdx]

Hello,

According to the Bible:

1. Daylight is not the result and effect of the sun, but it is an immediate creation of God.

2. The moon does give its own light.

3. There are waters all around and above us.

This is how I read the Scriptures. Prove me wrong, with the Bible.

Kind regards and God bless!

 

[Davy]

What are you asking? to prove your view of the creation account in Genesis as wrong?

I'm an old world creationist. I believe God's creation is very, very ancient, and not just 6,000 years old like most New Earth Creationists (NEC) believe per tradition.

 

[kdx]

What are you asking? to prove your view of the creation account in Genesis as wrong?

Yeah, go ahead if you can.

 

[Davy]

Yeah, go ahead if you can.

Yeah, what? That you believe the traditional NEC creationist view, or the old creationist view? Neither view supports men's theory of evolution. So anything outside the concept of creation for Genesis is out of the question. So which are you?

 

[MonoBiblical]

Hello,

According to the Bible:

1. Daylight is not the result and effect of the sun, but it is an immediate creation of God.

2. The moon does give its own light.

3. There are waters all around and above us.

This is how I read the Scriptures. Prove me wrong, with the Bible.

Kind regards and God bless!

You exaggerate.

 

[HealthyShape]

Hello,

According to the Bible:

1. Daylight is not the result and effect of the sun, but it is an immediate creation of God.

2. The moon does give its own light.

3. There are waters all around and above us.

This is how I read the Scriptures. Prove me wrong, with the Bible.

Kind regards and God bless!

Your OP does not make much sense. You are presenting the Old Testament flat earth cosmology and you want it to be disproved with the Bible.

Your request is illogical.

 

[kdx]

Yeah, what? That you believe the traditional NEC creationist view, or the old creationist view? Neither view supports men's theory of evolution. So anything outside the concept of creation for Genesis is out of the question. So which are you?

Forget about all of that and focus in those outlined 3 Points that I made.

You exaggerate.

Please explain.

Your OP does not make much sense. You are presenting the Old Testament flat earth cosmology and you want it to be disproved with the Bible.

I said the Bible teaches those 3 points I made. If you think it doesn’t, then please demonstrate, from the Bible itself, that it doesn’t.

I mainly get all of these 3 points from Genesis 1. There we read

1) that there was day and night (an immediate creation of God, „let there be light; and God called the light day, and the darkness night) even before God created the sun

2) that the moon, with all the other luminaries, give their own light

3) that there are waters above the place (called in Hebrew raqia, we translate firmament) where all those luminaries (sun, moon, stars) reside

If you say that that’s not the case, then please show why you think that that’s not the case. But just with the Bible, not science. We are, in this thread, only allowed to be theologians who exegete the biblical data.

 

[HealthyShape]

I said the Bible teaches those 3 points I made. If you think it doesn’t, then please demonstrate, from the Bible itself, that it doesn’t.

I mainly get all of these 3 points from Genesis 1. There we read

1) that there was day and night (an immediate creation of God, „let there be light; and God called the light day, and the darkness night) even before God created the sun

2) that the moon, with all the other luminaries, give their own light

3) that there are waters above the place (called in Hebrew raqia, we translate firmament) where all those luminaries (sun, moon, stars) reside

If you say that that’s not the case, then please show why you think that that’s not the case. But just with the Bible, not science. We are, in this thread, only allowed to be theologians who exegete the biblical data.

Ancient Near East cosmology was a flat earth cosmology and Bible uses it, because it was the cultural view of that time.

 

[kdx]

Ancient Near East cosmology was a flat earth cosmology and Bible uses it, because it was the cultural view of that time.

Ye I’m fine with that, because you basically admit that the Bible teaches these 3 points.

 

[HealthyShape]

Ye I’m fine with that, because you basically admit that the Bible teaches these 3 points.

I would not call it "teaches", rather mentions. Like it refers to, for example, the deepest thoughts to reside in our kidneys. But it is hardly some kind of "biblical doctrine" as the flat earthers abuse such cultural references.

 

[Davy]

Forget about all of that and focus in those outlined 3 Points that I made.

Nah... if you think you can come here to force Biblically learned believers to narrow their focus like you are suggesting, just so you can control... the flow of what God's Word says, or does not say, then your mind is definitely delusional.

I already revealed to you that I believe in an old earth creation. And if... you had understood what that is, then you should have been able to speak about it. And the same thing goes for my mention of those who believe in a 'new earth creation' (NEC). But apparently my suspicion about you is proving true, that you are Biblically unlearned, and don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.

 

[kdx]

Like it refers to, for example, deepest thoughts to reside in our kidneys

So you think it’s a metaphor or some kind of non-literal phenomena that Genesis 1 describes? But then you would have to prove that point. You would have to say that, for example, „because of this and that indication that we have here in this text, it cannot be meant literally“. But I would argue, no, we can’t do that because, there isn’t any indication right here in Genesis 1. Day and night are literal, plants are literal, the waters below are literal, animals are literal, man is literal and so on. And so, on this bases, we cannot suppose the other things (like the firmament) do be, all of the sudden, non-literal, just because it would fit our purposes.

So, in my opinion, the only other way out is to say that yes, the Bible actually teaches that here, but it really doesn’t mean it, because it is written with the view of the science and philosophy of that time (which is basically what you said). And so, in reality, the Bible does not teach that. It only did so to the ancient peoples who didn’t know better, but not to us.

But this opinion, that „it is written with the view of the science and philosophy of that time“, is just an arbitrary presupposition, which people only hold, because they know (or think they know) better. Since we know that the world actually doesn’t look like Genesis 1 describes it here, therefore it has to be written with the science and philosophy of that time. But again, that’s just a presupposition, merely an opinion, and not proven at all.

 

[HealthyShape]

So you think it’s a metaphor or some kind of non-literal phenomena that Genesis 1 describes?

Genesis 1 is a poetic, dramatical ode to God's creation, in the ancient culture of the Near East, in the time of Babylon.

It is not a literal, modern or scientific description, so it would be a gross misunderstanding to read it that way.

 

[David Lamb]

Hello,

According to the Bible:

1. Daylight is not the result and effect of the sun, but it is an immediate creation of God.

When God first created light, on Day 1, that light clearly did not come from the sun, because that was not created until day 4. When He did create the sun, moon and stars, we read:

“14 ¶ Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 “and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,” (Ge 1:14-17 NKJV)

So we are told that the sun, moon and stars were created to give light upon the earth.

 

[Davy]

If you say that that’s not the case, then please show why you think that that’s not the case. But just with the Bible, not science. We are, in this thread, only allowed to be theologians who exegete the biblical data.

You are making interpretation mistakes about Genesis 1. Furthermore, there is TRUE science which will always... agree with God's written Word, and then there is man's pseudo science which are fabrications by men (like the theory of evolution of species).


BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Genesis 1 is about TWO separate creation type events.

1. The Genesis 1:1 verse stands by itself about God's ORIGINAL PERFECT CREATION, "in the beginning". It is NOT simply a summary verse for the rest of the Genesis 1 chapter.

That original perfect... creation by God in the beginning was "... by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" (2 Peter 3:5-6)

God ENDED that old world of His original PERFECT CREATION of Genesis 1:1 because of Lucifer's rebellion against Him. That old world is when Lucifer was 'perfect in his ways' following God as a covering cherub guarding God's throne (per the Ezekiel 28 parable using the "king of Tyrus" as a type for Lucifer).

2. At Genesis 1:2, the earth lay in a state of destruction, as the actual Hebrew of "without form, and void" is tohu va bohu, and means the earth had become a waste and an undistinguishable ruin (Strong's nos.8414 and 922). It does NOT mean the earth hadn't been created yet. It was already created at Genesis 1:1 "in the beginning." This is why at Genesis 1:2, it is showing the earth covered with waters of a flood.

The state of the earth being overflowed with waters at Genesis 1:2, and God moving... those waters around, is the condition Apostle Peter was referring to in 2 Peter 3 with "the earth standing out of the water and in the water".

At 2 Peter 3:5, Peter said many "willingly are ignorant" of that old flood which God used to destroy His original perfect creation of Genesis 1:1 because of Lucifer's rebellion. Peter was not talking about the flood of Noah's day with that, because Moses taught about the flood of Noah's day, so the Israelites already knew about Noah's flood. It was that earlier flood long before Noah that Peter was talking about that they "willingly are ignorant" about, even as it still is to this day many are ignorant of it.

3. The "without form, and void" KJV phrase appears again in Jeremiah 4 when the kingdom of Judah was rebellious against God, and He sent His prophet Jeremiah to warn them. The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture is given as a warning by God to show about the destruction He once brought upon the old earth at Lucifer's rebellion.

Jer 4:22-28
22 For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

That is the same "without form, and void" phrase written in Genesis 1:2 when the earth is covered with waters of a flood. And notice, the heavens had NO light when that happened. This is when one must put their thinking cap on. Since the earth had already been created at Genesis 1:1 per this view, then it means the moon and stars also existed back in that old world before Lucifer rebelled.

The Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture about the "red dragon", another name for the devil, shows he drew a third of the "stars" (symbol for angels) to earth with him, which is only about his original rebellion in that old world. So even The New Testament Scripture contains proof of God's original creation back before the devil rebelled against Him. Not only that, but that Revelation 12:3-4 Scripture reveals in that old world rebellion, the devil had setup an earthly kingdom that had seven horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, which is different than the beast for the end of this world per Revelation 13:1 that is to have ten crowns.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Too bad that some brethren discount all science which agrees with God's Word, because true science admits that something happened to this earth long ago in its past history that tilted the earth. Aircraft pilots have to correct their compass when flying long distance because there is a 90 mile error between the earth's magnetic true north, and the earth's geographical true north. And Hebrews 12:26 mentions that God has already once before shook this earth, and in the future will shake not only the earth again, but also heaven.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

The man Adam of Genesis 2:7 was the first man in the flesh. But the angels, which have no flesh body, are called men also in God's Word. In that old world, when the devil rebelled, he had setup a world kingdom on earth. It had to have been an angelic-like kingdom, on the earth (Rev.12:3-4 again). God ended that with the flood of waters upon the earth shown at Genesis 1:2, and the earth became a waste and a ruin.

Thus in between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 was an unknown period of time when Lucifer was perfect in his ways, and served God right at His Altar, and was a covering cherub created to guard God's throne (per parable of Ezekiel 28).

(Continued...)

 

[kdx]

So we are told that the sun, moon and stars were created to give light upon the earth.

Yes, and they do. The sun lights the day, and the moon and the stars light the night. But that doesn’t mean that the previously defined „day and night“ are no more. The text doesn’t say that. Day and night are still there, no indication that anything changed regarding that. Nothing created in Genesis 1 is there at one moment, and gone in the next, or re-located (like the light from the first three days was on day 4 re-located into the sun). All the text says is that upon the light of the day he also put the sun, and upon the darkness of the night he put the moon and the stars. They are additional light sources upon the light of the day, and upon the darkness of the night.

So put away the sun, moon and the stars, and it would, according to Genesis 1, still be day and night, light and darkness.

 

[Davy]

(Continued...)

Jer.4:26
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.

God destroyed that old world of His original perfect creation, because of Lucifer's rebellion against Him. Because that fruitful place became a wilderness means the earth was in a better condition before this happened. It points to God's original perfect creation of the old world at Genesis 1:1. There are still today ancient buried cities being discovered that predate the flood of Noah's time. Most brethren simply think no accurate dating methods exist to prove that, but the fossil record reveals much about God's original perfect creation in the beginning.

For example, there exists at both the North and South poles tropical fossils of plant and animal life showing those areas were once tropical zones. Likewise with in the deserts on earth, same kind of fossils have been discovered to show they also were once tropical zones. And a Dr. Robert Schoch, a geologist from the University of Boston has proven that the weathering on the Great Sphinx in Egypt is from water... erosion, NOT sand erosion like Egyptology proposes. That area of the Sahara desert has been a desert for much, much longer than ancient Egyptian history of the Great Sphinx. It means the Egyptians were not the original builders of the Great Sphinx, but instead points to a much, much more ancient civilization. This basically confirms what God said in the above Jer.4:26 about ancient cities being broken down in that old world when His fierce anger was kindled by Lucifer's original rebellion and fall.


27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

The above is about God refurbishing His original creation up to a point after He destroyed that old world with a flood of waters at Lucifer's rebellion. That's why He said the whole land (earth) would in a desolate state, but that He would not make a full end. The next verse gives us a bit more detail about this...

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

Did you know that God's creation today mourns because of the desolate state that God placed it in? Apostle Paul reiterates this fact in Romans 8:18-25 when he said God placed the creation in "vanity", in "bondage of corruption", and the creation seeks a release from it. And per Isaiah 45:18, God said He did NOT create the earth in vain, the Hebrew word used is the "without form" translation. God made an original Perfect creation, and then it became in vanity and He placed it in "bondage of corruption" until He releases it when the manifesting of the sons of God occurs at Christ's future coming, meaning our being changed to the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

What about that "the heavens above be black", what's that about? I studied aviation at university, and had to take a Weather course (pilots got to know it for their license). What causes all of today's violent weather and storms is the mixing of hot and cold fronts in the atmosphere. The reason this happens is because in our cloud atmosphere around the earth there are holes in it, so the sun beads down upon the surface of the earth, causing evaporation of waters and hot air to rise and meet with cold air at higher altitudes. This creates swirling effects in our sky atmosphere which creates violent storms, tornadoes, hurricanes, cyclones, rainstorms, etc.

Per the events of Genesis 1:6-9, God takes a portion of the waters upon the earth, and moves them up above the earth to create today's sky atmosphere. The rest of the waters remained on the earth covering it. Then He moved the remaining waters on the earth until the dry land appeared (or re-appeared). There is NO Scripture there that shows He literally created earth matter. The earth was already there underneath all that water.

Likewise with the vegetation, He showed the seed was already there in itself in the earth, that because God had already created it back at Genesis 1:1 in the beginning.

This is also why Revelation 21:1 tells us there shall be no more sea in God's future new heavens and a new earth. All this is pointing to God's original perfect creation in the beginning as all the waters upon today's earth first originally being up in the sky around the earth, with no holes in the sky atmosphere, the firmament being like a complete covering, or garment. When that happens, the climate becomes stable and the same around the whole... earth. It is most likely how tropical plant and animal fossils exist at both Poles and in the deserts, and in every region of today's earth. It suggests that God's original Perfect creation of Genesis 1:1 was a literal PARADISE over all of it. And in final, no more sea means the 70% coverage of today's earth by water has to go somewhere, and this is pointing to those waters returning back up in the sky around this ancient earth.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, and they do. The sun lights the day, and the moon and the stars light the night. But that doesn’t mean that the previously defined „day and night“ are no more. The text doesn’t say that. Day and night are still there, no indication that anything changed regarding that. Nothing created in Genesis 1 is there at one moment, and gone in the next, or re-located (like the light from the first three days was on day 4 re-located into the sun). All the text says is that upon the light of the day he also put the sun, and upon the darkness of the night he put the moon and the stars. They are additional light sources upon the light of the day, and upon the darkness of the night.

So put away the sun, moon and the stars, and it would, according to Genesis 1, still be day and night, light and darkness.

Where does Genesis 1 say that upon the light of the day He also put the sun, or that upon the darkness of the night He put the moon and the stars? It's not in verses 14-17, which I quoted. Here they are again:

“14 ¶ Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 “and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,” (Ge 1:14-17 NKJV)

Perhaps you meant another verse or verses, but I cannot think of a verse anywhere in the bible that says what you suggested, about God putting the sun upon the light of the day, etc.

 

[kdx]

Where does Genesis 1 say that upon the light of the day He also put the sun, or that upon the darkness of the night He put the moon and the stars? It's not in verses 14-17, which I quoted. Here they are again:

“14 ¶ Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 “and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,” (Ge 1:14-17 NKJV)

You must read it in context. You quoted Verses 14-17, and there he writes, Verse 14:

"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night"

So God, in Verses 14-17, on the fourth day of creation, says: let there be lights in the firmament to divide the day from the night. Mind you, he at that moment creates the lights in the firmanent, not the day and the night. So you must ask yourself, where does day and night come from? Well, he created it on day one of creation, and defined exactly what he means by it. Let me quote you the text:

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. (Gen 1,3–5.)

There you have it. God created light, then he seperated the light from the darkness, and then he called the light "day" and the darkness he called "night".

Only afterwards, on day 4, does he create additional lights in the firmament of the sky, to light and reign both day and night. But day and night are created and defined on the very first day of creation.

So of course, the sun is a light, as is the moon and the stars. But put them all away, and you will still have night and day, darkness and light. The sun, according to the Scriptures, is not the source of daylight, but a light in the firmament in the sky which is an addition to the light of the day.