Biblical proof that we the New Testament Church are true Israel today
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Like I said, the phrases elect remnant and true Israel do not appear in the scriptures.
But here are some scriptures on remnant....
You do not have to study.....you make it up in your head.
Lol. Everything we discuss you do a 180 degrees on. The remnant is throughout the Word. That elect are shown to be chosen. You find them in the old testament. You find them in the new testament. Now, will you answer the rest of my post?Like I said, the phrases elect remnant and true Israel do not appear in the scriptures.
But here are some scriptures on remnant....
You do not have to study.....you make it up in your head.
Do you just like being difficult and contentious? You don't seem to have any fixed positions, apart from going thr opposite way to truth. Everything you argue is fluid.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Tell John and the Holy Spirit who inspired him.
And don't forget to tell them that you're a theologian.
The whole New Testament tells us that their worship is meaningless in the absence of His Son.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Tell John and the Holy Spirit who inspired him.
And don't forget to tell them that you're a theologian.
The whole New Testament tells us that their worship is meaningless in the absence of His Son.
LOL
The New Testament is Christian. We believe salvation is only through the name of Yeshua.
The Old Testament is Judaism. They believe worshipping any other name but Yahweh is idolatry.
Two different religions.
Like I said, the phrases elect remnant and true Israel do not appear in the scriptures.
But here are some scriptures on remnant....
You do not have to study.....you make it up in your head.
You denied the reality of the remnant of Israel earlier in the thread, now you accept it. You keep doing this. It might be better for you to study this subject before making these wild erroneous extra-biblical statements.
The "remnant" are shown as elect in Scripture. They are chosen. They are distinct to apostate Israel. You do not see that due to how you have been wrongly taught.
If you study the whole thrust of Romans 9-11 you will see that Paul is comparing the chosen elect (the election) within Israel to those who are "blinded." In Romans 11:1-5, Paul identifies “his people which he foreknew” as a spiritual “remnant according to the election of grace.” This is in complete contrast to the “blinded” natural majority of Israelis who reject Christ.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No, denied "elect remnant" I gave you the scriptures regarding remnant. The word remnant means left over or remaining. Really not selected or elected. A small part of a larger group.
If the scriptures were going to designate a remnant group elect they would say that.
In the Old Testament remnant is referring to those Israelites He set aside for a holy purpose. The Levites would be a good example.
It is kind of like sanctification in Christianity.
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, Romans 9:11
You probably need to read this in context.
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. Roman 11:1-5
You can call them reserved or selected. No reference to elect.
Blinded? Unfaithful more accurate.
One thing for sure, the way you understand and add to the scriptures.....there is no telling what you believe.
You said, "They believe worshipping any other name but Yahweh is idolatry."
Does worshipping Yahweh save them?
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Things about Old Testament Judaism.....
In the Old Testament, Yahweh did not offered Heaven as a reward or a destinations for humans.
So salvation was not only not possible in the Old Testament, it wasn't even offered.
In Judaism, rewards and punishments occurred during their lifetime.
Sacrifices were not to forgive sins, they were to appease Yahweh's wrath, because of their sins.
Hebrews/Israelites, Jews did/do not believe in Hell. Yahweh never threatened them with Hell.
Hebrews/Israelites, Jews did/do not believe in a devil.
According to Judaism all souls go to Sheol.
They believed in the Messiah, but a human warlord king that would take out their oppressors and put them in power and make the Mosaic Law the law of the land. That did not happen.
For a period of time the Jews were under the friendly rule of the Persians. The Persians acknowledged Yahweh as a God but their primary religion was Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism had a Heaven and Hell and the resurrection of the dead. It had angels and demons. This is one of the reasons that some of the Jews knew of these things when Yeshua was talking to them.
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So on the numerous occasions when God slew rebellious, unfaithful, disobedient Israelites, they didn't go to hell?
Where did they go?
Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalm 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
The whole remnant idea is taught throughout the Hebrew text. It is seen in the intimacy described between God and His elect. It is witnessed in the personal exchanges between the Lord and His people. There has always been a faithful spiritual people, even before Abraham, Israel and the Jews. As the people of God became an organized community through Abraham, they were known by their outward profession, physical circumcision and godly living. This gave evidence of a saving knowledge of Yahweh God.
Like most truths, the revelation of God’s holy seed in history has been a gradual growing disclosure in Scripture. Piece by piece the jigsaw puzzle has been put together. We find the origin of it in the Garden of Eden. The LORD said in Genesis 3:15: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
Firstly, who was the seed of the woman? Christ. He was God’s ultimate holy seed. What is more, God’s seed was singular, and never plural. It is founded, centered and fulfilled in Israel’s Savior. Right from the Garden, the promised seed was a redeeming Messiah. This was at the heart of the Gospel and the whole remnant seed development. He is the holy One of Israel. He is true Israel. He was the promised One. Jesus was indeed the “hope of Israel” – the only hope. He accomplished what national Israel could not do in the Old Testament. We should keep this in mind as we examine God’s remnant in Scripture.
Secondly, right from the start we can see that man either belonged to God or belonged to our arch-enemy the devil. There was no other option. One was either of God’s holy seed or Satan’s corrupt seed. God’s true elect people (both in the Old and New Testament) trace their antiquity to the outworking of God’s promise of salvation made at the beginning with Adam and Eve. The covenant God made later with Abraham was simply a confirmation and an enlargement of this original promise.
As you follow the righteous elect lineage from the beginning it is always depicted as a remnant people. Those who belong to this company are a holy seed who are considered the children of promise. The unsaved on the other hand are classified as those who are born naturally and are merely of the flesh. But those who are born of God are those who have been spiritually transformed through the work of the Spirit of God. These are the people of God. These are God’s chosen people.
We see the great dividing of the ways with the two sons of Adam and Eve, way before Abraham, and way before there was a nation of Israel. Cain was a child of the devil, and Abel was a child of God. Genesis 3:3 reveals the first record of false worship in Scripture, it says, “Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD” Cain’s sacrifice was outwardly impressive; it was a beautifully adorned offering. What is more, and significantly, it was made to Yahweh God, not the devil. However, it was not pleasing unto the Lord.
It is important to remember, God has always had a faithful people. Sadly, those who were of true Israel within ethnic Israel were often the minority, and sometimes a small minority. But God always had a remnant of true believers within the overall professing nation of Israel in the Old Testament. They were submitted to His plan, obedient unto His voice and consequently manifested His power and glory to a fallen world.
Old Testament Scripture makes various diverse allusions to this called out people amongst the Hebrew people. The Psalmist attests in Psalm 73:1, “Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.” God was only bound to those within the camp of Israel who were set apart as a sanctified people. He regarded only those who had renewed hearts as true Israelites. Isaiah 45:17 calls God’s true elect “Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation.” Isaiah 49:6 describes the elect congregation as “the preserved of Israel.” Psalm 147:30, Isaiah 11:12 and 56:8 calls them “the outcasts of Israel.”
God had an active spiritual people in each generation in Israel throughout the Old Testament that knew their God and were committed to divine truth. They were a transformed community that were in holy communion with their Lord. Isaiah 65:9 confirms: “And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.”
Isaiah 10:20 authenticates this thought: “the remnant of Israel … shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.” Contrary, to what many Christians think, God’s favor was about more than racial pedigree in the Old Testament, it was instead about righteousness and truth. Isaiah 10:22 tells us: “though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.” Though many in the old covenant accepted the Gospel message, many more rejected it.
Dispensationalists often overlook (or dismiss) the closeness of the relationship that existed amongst God’s true elect in the old economy. There are countless examples of that in the Old Testament. Think about the words of the Moabite Ruth, which she said to Naomi in Ruth 1:16-18: “Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me. When she saw that she was stedfastly minded to go with her, then she left speaking unto her.”
This shows us the depth of intimacy and the spiritual bond that existed during the old covenant. Another example was David and Jonathan. David testified in 2 Samuel 1:25-26 about his love for Jonathan: “How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
No one could surely deny the spiritual bond that existed between the true people of God in the Old Testament. These people were all part of true Israel, within natural Israel. They were the believing remnant. They were in union and communion with God and each other. They were the household of faith. They were the true children of Abraham.
A lot of Israelites before the cross, including the Pharisees 2000 years ago, wrongly imagined that favor with God automatically came through simply being the natural offspring of Abraham. Dispensationalists have unfortunately swallowed that same lie. But nothing could be further from the truth. Romans 4:13 instructs: “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”
Here we see that the blessing was not passed on through the Law or by natural means, as the Jews imagined, but rather came through a people of faith. These alone were the promised seed. Natural genetics, racial birth and family background never carried any merit with God.
Romans 4:16-18 continues: “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.”
This demolishes the Dispensational fallacy that God’s earthly people are the Hebrew people who foolishly put their confidence in keeping the Law. Clearly, it is the household of faith that are the promised seed. It is they alone who are God’s holy remnant.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
There are 2 Israels here, there are two types of Israeli. Paul makes it abundantly clear: not all natural Israelis are God’s chosen people – His elect. There is only a faithful “remnant” who are. These alone are shown to be God’s children.
What is a remnant?
A remnant is a small surviving portion of something larger. It describes a distinct part of an overall whole. In Scripture it tends to relate to a faithful few in a larger group who stay true to their beliefs or God amidst widespread unfaithfulness.
In the case here, Paul describes a part of Israel that belongs to God, enjoys His favor and is chosen to spread His truth. This included the early disciple and all the early Church Jewish converts, right up until today.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
What Paul is teaching in Romans 11:28 is in keeping with what he stated in his introductory comments in Romans 11:1-17. He is showing the two types of people that exist in Israel – like any nation. There was/is the Israel that is saved and there was/is the Israel that is unregenerate. You have “the elect[ion]” (God’s chosen) and you have the blind (those who are “enemies” of God).
Basically, not all Israel are saved. Not all Israel are lost. Part of Israel is blinded and part is elect.
This passage shows that there are two diverse camps within natural Israel while the Gentiles come in during this new covenant period – saved and lost. This applies to every nation. Paul depicts the faithful believing remnant within Israelite (those who belong to “the good olive tree”) as “the election” or “a remnant according to the election of grace.” It is this faithful remnant alone that “are beloved for the fathers sakes.” The remaining segment that are "broken off" are depicted as “blinded” and “enemies” of “the Gospel.” They are the lost Israelis.
So here you have it, talking about natural fleshly Christ-rejecting Israel:
- “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh” (Romans 2:28).
- “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children” (Romans 9:6-7).
- “Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness” (Romans 9:31).
- “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for” (Romans 11:7).
- “As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes” (Romans 11:28).
This is talking about the unsaved element of Israel that are blinded/hardened. They are lost. They are of their father the devil. The “election” on the other hand are saved. They are the faithful remnant that belongs to God – His favor rests upon them. This holy remnant is not just Jews. They include believing Gentiles from throughout the nations – of all tribes and kindreds.
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Psalm 118:14
The Lord is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
Psalm 118:15
The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the Lord doeth valiantly.
Psalm 118:21
I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
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