Biblically Questioning the Creeds

[Christ4Me]

What about all the men who have died up until the rapture?

The spirits of the dead are with the Lord and so those who were abiding in Him unto death will be raptured no matter how long they have been dead.

Luke 13:24-30 is an example of O.T. saints joining with N.T. saints abiding in Him to be raptured to sit down in Heaven while workers of iniquity gets left behind.

But those who had died in iniquity or in their sins, will not be resurrected at that rapture but after the great tribulation when Jesus is on earth. Revelation 6:9-11 <--- I kind of get that impression for why they were asking the Lord how much longer they had to wait which is after the great tribulation when they will all serve the King of kings on earth. Revelation 7:9-17

 

[Christ4Me]

"Well, let's say the rapture is happening and the first wrong thing a believer does is wishing to save his life on earth in not losing anything he has gained for his heart is on his treasure on earth, rather than above. So with that fiery calamity coming, he loses his life anyway for trying to save it."

This reminds me of Lot's wife, she looked back, as that was where here heart truly was. And, she lost her life.

I see many, including myself that start doing well after first being saved, going to church, praying...then ... what was left behind will pull you back because you think you cannot live without it. But, my guess is that it was the actual "sinning" she was missing. There's more than silver and gold keeping people in sin. Stunned and I have similar issues in this area. It's not "material things" that we seek but, obedience, the ability through His Spirit to STOP murdering, to STOP throwing fits (me) because of frustration. We seek His peace, amen. That is all we want and will continue to reach out and pray for.

Much love brother, you have really good way's of putting things.

I had thought of this video when you had shared that as I needed the Lord often times when the devil gets a grip on my anger of past wrongs done by others to make me feel stupid for not doing anything for the grief I had suffered, thus threatening to consume my energy, time, and thoughts on what I could not do anything about & accept Jesus is Lord.

He had to help me to forgive them for they know not what they do and to suffer grief in following Christ as the example in the hopes that one day, the Lord may save them or even restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

[Nancy]

I had thought of this video when you had shared that as I needed the Lord often times when the devil gets a grip on my anger of past wrongs done by others to make me feel stupid for not doing anything for the grief I had suffered, thus threatening to consume my energy, time, and thoughts on what I could not do anything about & accept Jesus is Lord.

He had to help me to forgive them for they know not what they do and to suffer grief in following Christ as the example in the hopes that one day, the Lord may save them or even restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.

Ephesians 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Good song. And, all the verses you quoted have been in the forefront of my mind for sometime brother. thanks

 

[Christ4Me]

Good song. And, all the verses you quoted have been in the forefront of my mind for sometime brother. thanks

There are a few more for why I need Him also to help me cast down wicked imaginations and to think on good things too.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

I give thanks to the Lord for His help for you, for your friend, & for me too.

 

[Christ4Me]

Good song. And, all the verses you quoted have been in the forefront of my mind for sometime brother. thanks

I apologize.

I had a dream where I was putting "Precious Moments" cards on a card rack in a store but this rack was oddly different. If you can imagine a normal metal rack with a card holder, but instead, the holder kind of sticks out further in holding more cards, but on the other side of pole of that holder, as part of that card holder on that pole, was a holder for a glass cup of water. The water at the top of the rack was fuller than the glass beneath it the next row down and so forth on the way down. As I put the cards in on the top rack holding the cards, somehow, it caused the glass cup on the other side of the pole attached to the card holder, to spill over on down unto the other cards below, and while I try to grab a handful of cards from the rack beneath that the water spilt unto, I had dropped the handful of cards unto the floor, creating a mess.

A girl employee came over to assist, but as I did pick up a few of the cards on the floor, most of the cards I had spilt was gone.

When I awoke from the dream just a bit ago, the Lord directed my thoughts, which made me believe I was sharing too much scripture to you for why I seem to be bending over to pick up my mess now, even though, you, the girl employee came over to help me, that my mess was, not as bad as I had thought, though the spill did happen as some of the water did spilt on the cards on the lower rack below.

Not sure now.. as I am writing this post at this point, if I had overdone my sharing scripture with you, thinking as the Lord ministers as He gives us the seed and water to give to others per the post as card holder in this discussion as a rack, that the water does spill over unto the other cards or posts below as if being shared with others that post in this discussion.

Still, I felt like apologizing to you for sharing too much scripture, even though you, as that girl employee coming over in helping me also, is why the mess I made, is not as bad as I think.

Thank you for sharing & confirming the help of the Lord through His words.

 

[Christ4Me]

So how does that fit with this: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.

it’s very nice to meet you by the way. I struggled with your posts but I agree with some of what you say.

Maybe if I give an extreme example of someone loving this life more that it can be a snare for when the Lord appears at the rapture??

"No, Lord ! Not now! Wheel of Fortune is on !"

It sounds funny but it also can be nightmarish at the same time for how the cares of this life can be a snare. ---> Luke 21:33-36

Then there is that drawing back when the Lord appears as an example of what makes me think of this nightmarish snare; Hebrews 10:37-39

"No, Lord! Not yet! I need to go to the Mass because I have been bad this week!"

That is what happens when we allow our hope to be divided from the Lord with religious works when He is our hope 1 John 3:3 1 John 1:3-9

So when we trust Him to help us to continually have all of our hope on the Lord and treasure the things above ( Colossians 3:1-2 ), is why we are to pray that He may cause us to escape those snares of the cares of his life. 2 Timothy 4:18 & Jude 1:24-25

 

[Nancy]

I apologize.

I had a dream where I was putting "Precious Moments" cards on a card rack in a store but this rack was oddly different. If you can imagine a normal metal rack with a card holder, but instead, the holder kind of sticks out further in holding more cards, but on the other side of pole of that holder, as part of that card holder on that pole, was a holder for a glass cup of water. The water at the top of the rack was fuller than the glass beneath it the next row down and so forth on the way down. As I put the cards in on the top rack holding the cards, somehow, it caused the glass cup on the other side of the pole attached to the card holder, to spill over on down unto the other cards below, and while I try to grab a handful of cards from the rack beneath that the water spilt unto, I had dropped the handful of cards unto the floor, creating a mess.

A girl employee came over to assist, but as I did pick up a few of the cards on the floor, most of the cards I had spilt was gone.

When I awoke from the dream just a bit ago, the Lord directed my thoughts, which made me believe I was sharing too much scripture to you for why I seem to be bending over to pick up my mess now, even though, you, the girl employee came over to help me, that my mess was, not as bad as I had thought, though the spill did happen as some of the water did spilt on the cards on the lower rack below.

Not sure now.. as I am writing this post at this point, if I had overdone my sharing scripture with you, thinking as the Lord ministers as He gives us the seed and water to give to others per the post as card holder in this discussion as a rack, that the water does spill over unto the other cards or posts below as if being shared with others that post in this discussion.

Still, I felt like apologizing to you for sharing too much scripture, even though you, as that girl employee coming over in helping me also, is why the mess I made, is not as bad as I think.

Thank you for sharing & confirming the help of the Lord through His words.

Oh. NO sweet brother, you have zero need to think this! We do need to hear it over and over, I THANK you for the input, for sure! As well as your concern to even bother to reply
I am sorry you felt you shared too much scripture with me, they were perfect verses and they were and are always niggling at my mind as, they are true and fit the situation right now so, thank you brother!!!!
Interesting dream, lol...I don't have dreams, at least I have not remembered one in probably about 15 years or so. @Hidden In Him is really good with interpreting them.
So, no issues here Christ4Me.
Bless you bro! And, praise God cause He is worthy!

 

[Enoch111]

...I am not sure why you would add affirming the Apostle's creed and the Nicene's creed to it...

A word of caution. Both creeds provide the essential beliefs of Christians, even though some of the clauses are misunderstood or misrepresented. For example Christ did not descend into Hell but He did descend into Sheol/Hades.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I had a dream where I was putting "Precious Moments" cards on a card rack in a store but this rack was oddly different. If you can imagine a normal metal rack with a card holder, but instead, the holder kind of sticks out further in holding more cards, but on the other side of pole of that holder, as part of that card holder on that pole, was a holder for a glass cup of water. The water at the top of the rack was fuller than the glass beneath it the next row down and so forth on the way down. As I put the cards in on the top rack holding the cards, somehow, it caused the glass cup on the other side of the pole attached to the card holder, to spill over on down unto the other cards below, and while I try to grab a handful of cards from the rack beneath that the water spilt unto, I had dropped the handful of cards unto the floor, creating a mess.

A girl employee came over to assist, but as I did pick up a few of the cards on the floor, most of the cards I had spilt was gone.

When I awoke from the dream just a bit ago, the Lord directed my thoughts, which made me believe I was sharing too much scripture to you for why I seem to be bending over to pick up my mess now, even though, you, the girl employee came over to help me, that my mess was, not as bad as I had thought, though the spill did happen as some of the water did spilt on the cards on the lower rack below.

Not sure now.. as I am writing this post at this point, if I had overdone my sharing scripture with you

What a wonderful dream.

Greetings, Christ4Me, and welcome to our forum : )

Sharing scripture from your heart is a good example of what this dream is talking about, so don't think I am "correcting" you here on your interpretation. But if I may, it may also be communicating something deeper, being a reference to a pattern of behavior the Lord wants to encourage you is not as bad as you think...

It's personal, so I think rather than share it publicly I will send you a conversation. You can read over it and see what you think.

Welcome again, and I hope you stay awhile. You seem like you would be a good addition to our community.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

 

[Christ4Me]

A word of caution. Both creeds provide the essential beliefs of Christians, even though some of the clauses are misunderstood or misrepresented. For example Christ did not descend into Hell but He did descend into Sheol/Hades.

Not sure if there is a difference, and when I read this reference below, I would ask you how then, did He get those keys?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 

[Christ4Me]

What a wonderful dream.

Greetings, Christ4Me, and welcome to our forum : )

Sharing scripture from your heart is a good example of what this dream is talking about, so don't think I am "correcting" you here on your interpretation. But if I may, it may also be communicating something deeper, being a reference to a pattern of behavior the Lord wants to encourage you is not as bad as you think...

It's personal, so I think rather than share it publicly I will send you a conversation. You can read over it and see what you think.

Welcome again, and I hope you stay awhile. You seem like you would be a good addition to our community.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

As long as the Lord is willing, I shall continue to be here.

 

[Enoch111]

Not sure if there is a difference, and when I read this reference below, I would ask you how then, did He get those keys?

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

That is Rev 1:18 and the word translated as "hell" in the KJV is actually "Hades" (as seen in other translations and in the King James 2000 Bible).

καὶ ὁ ζῶν καὶ ἐγενόμην νεκρὸς καὶ ἰδού, ζῶν εἰμι εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν· καὶ ἔχω τὰς κλεῖς τοῦ ᾅδου καὶ τοῦ θανάτου
King James 2000 Bible
I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death.

The above was a metaphorical statement regarding "keys", although Hades could have literal gates, since Christ said that the gates of Hades would not prevail against the Church. That was fulfilled when Christ rose from the dead and took the OT saints with Him to Heaven. Now all the NT saints go directly to Heaven. Hades cannot hold any Christian captive.

 

[Christ4Me]

That is Rev 1:18 and the word translated as "hell" in the KJV is actually "Hades" (as seen in other translations and in the King James 2000 Bible).

καὶ ὁ ζῶν καὶ ἐγενόμην νεκρὸς καὶ ἰδού, ζῶν εἰμι εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν· καὶ ἔχω τὰς κλεῖς τοῦ ᾅδου καὶ τοῦ θανάτου
King James 2000 Bible
I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hades and of death.

The above was a metaphorical statement regarding "keys", although Hades could have literal gates, since Christ said that the gates of Hades would not prevail against the Church. That was fulfilled when Christ rose from the dead and took the OT saints with Him to Heaven. Now all the NT saints go directly to Heaven. Hades cannot hold any Christian captive.

I agree to a certain extent.

I believe Abraham's bosom is also known as Paradise which was not in hell, but across the huge gulf from hell, but beneath the earth. Jesus had told the thief that believed in Him on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. Since He had not resurrected yet until 3 days later & ascended to Heaven at some time after that, Paradise had to be Abraham's bosom as located beneath the earth.

Now since His ascension, Paradise is now located in Heaven as Paul indirectly testified about the apostle John and the Book of Revelation in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. I can see how He took the captivity captive of the inhabitants of Paradise by taking Paradise to Heaven.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Not so.

Adam was created in the image of God, that is, he was spirit. Living in a body, but not that body. His spirit was in communion with God, being righteous. When he sinned, his spirit lost connection with God - died. We, being reborn, that dead spirit is again made alive, not by being reformed to be like Adam's spirit, but instead by God coming to live in us, His Spirit bringing life to our spirit.

So now we are restored to connection with God, but NOT because we have a new "Adam-spirit", but because we now have the Spirit of Christ, Who gives us His righteousness, and in His righteousness, we have restored connection with God. And this is eternal, everlasting life, because unlike Adam's spirit, which could lose it's righteousness, Christ's Spirit in us will never lose righteousness.

You have been born again by the incorruptible seed which lives and remains forever.

Much love!

This theology has some serious problems. First of all, the Bible shows God saying Adam was dust, not a spirit trapped in a body:

:In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return.” - Gen. 3:19

Secondly, Adam was not created in a state of righteousness at all. If Adam was already created in a state of righteousness, God wouldn't have had to offer the tree of life to Ada(Gen. 2:16-17, 3:2). At no point in the Bible does it ever mention Adam being created in a state of righteousness. That is Catholic nonsense.

While Adam's sin cut himself and the entirety of the human race off from God, his spirit did not die as you say. The human spirit is not some ethereal entity that exists in human beings as Orthodox Christianity falsely teaches. The human spirit is the seat of our intellect(Job 32:8, 1 Cor. 2:11). In plainer words, it is the means through which human beings are able to understand, acquire, and value material knowledge. This spirit is what separates human beings from the animals because they were created to act on instinct. The fact that the human race has advanced to the point where we can send people into outer space proves this spirit did not die with Adam's sin at all.

I could go further and prove why Orthodox Christianity's understanding of what it means to truly be born again is completely ridiculous and antithetical to what the Bible actually teaches, but that's for another time.

The spirits of the dead are with the Lord and so those who were abiding in Him unto death will be raptured no matter how long they have been dead.

Luke 13:24-30 is an example of O.T. saints joining with N.T. saints abiding in Him to be raptured to sit down in Heaven while workers of iniquity gets left behind.

But those who had died in iniquity or in their sins, will not be resurrected at that rapture but after the great tribulation when Jesus is on earth. Revelation 6:9-11 <--- I kind of get that impression for why they were asking the Lord how much longer they had to wait which is after the great tribulation when they will all serve the King of kings on earth. Revelation 7:9-17

There is so much wrong here. First of all, nobody is in Heaven, as Jesus clearly said Himself in Jhn 3 that no human being besides Himself was ever going there. Secondly, Dan. 12, Psa. 17., and Job. 14 all show the OT saints' faith were in the resurrection of the firstfruits, not going to Heaven.

Doctrines like this is why i repeatedly emphasize the importance for people to honestly study the Bible and accept what it says instead of trying to force their own theology into it. Peter's Pentecost sermon in Acts 2 shows him saying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that David was waiting in his grave for the resurrection of the firstfruits, and a person would think that professing Christians would accept what Peter clearly said. Daniel, Revelation, and Hebrews are just a few of the books that teach in no uncertain terms that the Christian's reward is ruling this physical universe forever, not going to Heaven.

The whole reason why adherents in this world's brand of Christianity think they're going to Heaven is because they've been inoculated with too much Catholic dogma, they fail to understand that God created the human race to achieve what He originally wanted to do through the angels, and they reject the weekly and annual festivals that God instituted for people to succeed where the angels failed. The fact that Orthodox Christianity lack this extremely vital understanding about why mankind exists in the first place proves it is just as false as every other religion or ideology on this planet that was built on rejecting God's government and the authority of the Bible.

 

[Christ4Me]

There is so much wrong here. First of all, nobody is in Heaven, as Jesus clearly said Himself in Jhn 3 that no human being besides Himself was ever going there.

Explain how Paul's testimony indirectly about the apostle John's trip to Paradise in Heaven for the Book of Revelation?

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Secondly, Dan. 12, Psa. 17., and Job. 14 all show the OT saints' faith were in the resurrection of the firstfruits, not going to Heaven.

Jesus is warning the churches about false prophets for why believers need to be ready before He comes as the Bridegroom or else be left behind.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Note the sitting down in His kingdom as inferring the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven with those abiding in Him along with O.T. saints.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

@HammerStone @Angelina @Brent W @1forrest

I am new here and so looking over the forum's statement of faith as closed handed issues, I am not sure why you would add affirming the Apostle's creed and the Nicene's creed to it.

BTW You probably should specify which Nicene creed you are referring to in your Statement of Faith; is it the "historic" as in the original in 325 A.D. or the modified one in 381 A.D.?

Anyway... here is why I am questioning both of those the creeds in relations to your statement of faith.

You began with "We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God."

But both creeds assign the Father alone to that credit & glory.

Apostle creed begins with "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth."

Nicene creed of 325 A.D. begins with "We believe in one God, the Father, Ruler of All, Maker of all things visible and invisible;

The modified Nicene creed of 381 A.D. begins with "I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible."

So am I to assume that since you agree with the creeds, does that mean God in your opening statement is only referring to the Father, and not inferring to God as in all Three Persons by the statement following it?

I know this is supposed to be a close-handed issue but I am confused as to where you stand.

I've always found and believed man made creeds to be pointless and useless. If a man man creed says EXACTLY the same thing the Bible says then the creed is not needed for the Bible already says it. But if the man man creed contradicts the Bible (which I see most all do) then they should be done away with for contradicting God's word.