Black and white as it appears?

[Ernie]

I've considered myself a lifelong Christian, I've also posed another question on here about "hope" more then "certainty"...has anyone else ever questioned whether it is as black and white to get into paradise as we hear? I mean we as Christians debate tooth and nail as to what it takes...baptism, no baptism , pre destination, free will...etc

Interestingly enough Ive had my own questions as someone very introspective, very analytical etc....however it is a bit challenging. As I said earlier , I have considered myself a Christian since I can remember. During the summer of 95 I had what I thought was a "being saved" moment...someone prayed for me, and I did think I "felt" something and I certainly felt a change...only for years later to hear "feelings don't matter!" from many circles of Christianity. So I have to ask was all that just emotions and not true? Kind of goes along with a time I was going through some pretty severe anxiety, I clinged to the Bible and kept nothing but Christian tv on, only to find out they are all terrible and false teachers!(Sarcasm) , and here I think I am at the best I have ever been in following Christ. I know we must most certainly use our God given discernment, but still i get tired of hearing the everyone is a false teacher argument. So with that said, especially with my mindset it is very difficult, kind of like throwing my hands in the air and saying how do we know? I hope you can see where I am coming from.

It just makes me wonder if getting into paradise is as black and white as we are taught, especially when some Christian views on entering are so severely different (specifically thinking of the baptism vs no baptism being necessary). Listening to other views is it possible that our views whichever side we are on aren't 100 percent accurate?

 

[Lambano]

I mean we as Christians debate tooth and nail as to what it takes...baptism, no baptism , pre destination, free will...etc

Throw in faith/works (repentance) and have-a-born-again-experience/believe-the-right-doctrine into the mill too.

I figured out awhile back that it's not black-and-white and it ain't gonna be black-and-white no matter how much I want it to be and how much others try to make it that way.

If I can't have certainty, I'll just have to trust Jesus, won't I?

 

[Kokyu]

I've considered myself a lifelong Christian, I've also posed another question on here about "hope" more then "certainty"...has anyone else ever questioned whether it is as black and white to get into paradise as we hear? I mean we as Christians debate tooth and nail as to what it takes...baptism, no baptism , pre destination, free will...etc

Interestingly enough Ive had my own questions as someone very introspective, very analytical etc....however it is a bit challenging. As I said earlier , I have considered myself a Christian since I can remember. During the summer of 95 I had what I thought was a "being saved" moment...someone prayed for me, and I did think I "felt" something and I certainly felt a change...only for years later to hear "feelings don't matter!" from many circles of Christianity. So I have to ask was all that just emotions and not true?

Emotions/feelings are probably the very worst basis upon which to try to determine if, in fact, you're saved. As has been observed,

"Feeling come and feelings go,
And feelings are deceiving..."

The Bible offers us a different, better, more sure basis for thinking you're truly saved: The inner witness of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

This "testimony" of the Spirit isn't a feeling, it's his life and work in evidence in your life. He bears witness, or testifies, that you're actually born-again by doing in, and to, you what the Bible says he will do.

The Holy Spirit will:

- convict you (Jn. 16:8; Rev. 2-3).
- teach you (Jn. 14:26; 16:13; 1 Co. 2:10-16).
- strengthen you (Ro. 8:13; Eph. 3:16; Phil. 2:13; 4:13).
- transform you (2 Co. 3:3, 18; Ga. 5:22-23)
- glorify Christ in you (Jn. 6:14).
- give you a holy, self-sacrificing love for the brethren (1 Jn. 3:14).

These are only some of the things that the Holy Spirit is promised to do in those who have been made his "temple" (1 Co. 3:16; 6:19-20; Ti. 3:5-7; 1 Jn. 4:13) and who remain under his control throughout each day (Ja. 4:6-10; 1 Pe. 5:6; Ro. 6:13-22; 12:1).

It's in light of these things that Paul was able to say to his fellow Christians not only that they could test themselves to see if they were in the faith or not, but that they could do the same with him, also.

2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

What does testing yourself against the above reveal about your condition spiritually?

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[Kokyu]

and here I think I am at the best I have ever been in following Christ.

Give the following a read. It may help clarify some things for you about what it is to be a disciple of Jesus.

The Twig and the Tree.

An allegory.

jonathanhay.substack.com

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

The Twig and the Tree. An allegory.

That's just allegory and not real.

He should read God's Word instead!

 

[quietthinker]

I've considered myself a lifelong Christian, I've also posed another question on here about "hope" more then "certainty"...has anyone else ever questioned whether it is as black and white to get into paradise as we hear? I mean we as Christians debate tooth and nail as to what it takes...baptism, no baptism , pre destination, free will...etc

Interestingly enough Ive had my own questions as someone very introspective, very analytical etc....however it is a bit challenging. As I said earlier , I have considered myself a Christian since I can remember. During the summer of 95 I had what I thought was a "being saved" moment...someone prayed for me, and I did think I "felt" something and I certainly felt a change...only for years later to hear "feelings don't matter!" from many circles of Christianity. So I have to ask was all that just emotions and not true? Kind of goes along with a time I was going through some pretty severe anxiety, I clinged to the Bible and kept nothing but Christian tv on, only to find out they are all terrible and false teachers!(Sarcasm) , and here I think I am at the best I have ever been in following Christ. I know we must most certainly use our God given discernment, but still i get tired of hearing the everyone is a false teacher argument. So with that said, especially with my mindset it is very difficult, kind of like throwing my hands in the air and saying how do we know? I hope you can see where I am coming from.

It just makes me wonder if getting into paradise is as black and white as we are taught, especially when some Christian views on entering are so severely different (specifically thinking of the baptism vs no baptism being necessary). Listening to other views is it possible that our views whichever side we are on aren't 100 percent accurate?

HOW we see God determines our conclusions Ernie.
Jesus came for the very purpose of revealing God's character so that being snowed by the devil (who misrepresents God's character) is not necessary.

How do we see Jesus?
Is he as one who will torture people indefinitely if they reject him?
Is he one who has sexist or racist ideology?
Is he one who keeps a detailed record of sin?
Is he one whose tongue constantly runs out 'theology' as is prevalent in 'religious' circles?

What we gravitate to determines confusion or peace. We have been given heaven's greatest gift as the assurance that we are loved more than life in the person of Jesus.

When I was younger the 'confusions' you mention also harassed me. It was the following little ditty internalised which broke through and stabilised the uncertainty......'be my feelings what they will, Jesus is my Saviour still.'

 

[Kokyu]

That's just allegory and not real.

He should read God's Word instead!

This is what is called a false dichotomy. It isn't one or the other; it can be both. Read the Bible, of course; but doing so doesn't preclude reading the allegory, too.

And, obviously, an allegory isn't real. This is why its called an allegory.

In any case, the allegory has its basis in Scripture. See John 15:4-5. So, I'm not sure why you're up-in-arms about the allegory...

 

[Gottservant]

It's not black and white, but hot or cold.

 

[Lambano]

In any case, the allegory has its basis in Scripture. See John 15:4-5. So, I'm not sure why you're up-in-arms about the allegory...

I agree. Since Jesus was a master at teaching through parables, I don't see why we wouldn't treat the allegory genre in the same way.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It's not black and white, but hot or cold.

Light or darkness is black and white

 

[Lambano]

Light or darkness is black and white

Light is a whole spectrum of colors...

 

[Behold]

I've considered myself a lifelong Christian, I've also posed another question on here about "hope" more then "certainty"...has anyone else ever questioned whether it is as black and white to get into paradise as we hear?

God created Salvation, as Jesus on The Cross.

Accept no substitute.

 

[Jericho]

has anyone else ever questioned whether it is as black and white to get into paradise as we hear

I think the Bible makes it clear; it is black and white. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. It's simple but also very specific. No need to make it more complicated.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matt 7:13-14)

I know we must most certainly use our God given discernment, but still i get tired of hearing the everyone is a false teacher argument.

Listening to other views is it possible that our views whichever side we are on aren't 100 percent accurate?

My advice is to tune out all the other voices, and discern for yourself. Too much chatter will only cause confusion.

 

[Nancy]

Throw in faith/works (repentance) and have-a-born-again-experience/believe-the-right-doctrine into the mill too.

I figured out awhile back that it's not black-and-white and it ain't gonna be black-and-white no matter how much I want it to be and how much others try to make it that way.

If I can't have certainty, I'll just have to trust Jesus, won't I?

Love your answer LAMB! I think I needed to hear this today .

 

[Kokyu]

Romans 8:9
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Seems pretty black-and-white to me...

See post #3.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Light is a whole spectrum of colors...

Yes and darkness is darkness, the opposite of light

Christians are called to walk in the LIGHT (In Christ) not in darkness.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I figured out awhile back that it's not black-and-white

From God's perspective each person is either abiding IN Christ or in darkness. There's no grey area.

That's the devil's deception claiming we can have a little sin in our lives and it's all good as long as it's not serious sin like murder or bank robbing

 

[Ernie]

"I think the Bible makes it clear; it is black and white. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. It's simple but also very specific. No need to make it more complicated."

Unfortunately there are just as many who say that is not enough...as in the large baptism being necessary split for an example, So to them you are completely wrong (I'm not saying you are)

Unfortunately there are just as many who say that is not enough...as in the large baptism being necessary split for an example, So to them you are completely wrong (I'm not saying you are)

 

[Jericho]

Unfortunately there are just as many who say that is not enough...as in the large baptism being necessary split for an example, So to them you are completely wrong (I'm not saying you are)

Yea, well, too many people get too caught up in legalism IMO. It ends up being more about works than faith.