Black and white as it appears?

[TLHKAJ]

Unfortunately there are just as many who say that is not enough...as in the large baptism being necessary split for an example, So to them you are completely wrong (I'm not saying you are)

God has given the answers to your questions right in His Word ....just take Him at His Word and believe what HE says. You will find a million versions of truth if you ask people. But you will find THE truth when you go to the source.

Jeremiah 29:11-13
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[lforrest]

Faith is not sufficient for salvation. Period. It's is essential it is necessary it is needed but it is NOT sufficient for salvation because if it were it wouldn't need completion by works. Please stop this silliness if yours.

It doesn't appear that we are on the same page yet so I'll not make assumptions about your beliefs.

Could you clarify why works are necessary for salvation? And give an example of what constitutes a work?

 

[nedsk]

It doesn't appear that we are on the same page yet so I'll not make assumptions about your beliefs.

Could you clarify why works are necessary for salvation? And give an example of what constitutes a work?

You know what happens when you assume right?

Scripture says they are necessary, that why they are necessary. Necessary is not the same as sufficient. Do you understand? It's vitally important to understand the difference if you want to actually know what I believe rather than simply assuming what I believe.

As to what constitutes a work scripture is clear there as well. Jesus washes the feet of the disciples. Matthew also tells us those who feed the hungry, give water to the thirst, welcomed strangers, clothed the naked, took care of the sick and visited those in prison inherited the kingdom.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You know what happens when you assume right?

Once someone identifies themselves as a follower of the catholics, there's no assuming

 

[lforrest]

You know what happens when you assume right?

Scripture says they are necessary, that why they are necessary. Necessary is not the same as sufficient. Do you understand? It's vitally important to understand the difference if you want to actually know what I believe rather than simply assuming what I believe.

As to what constitutes a work scripture is clear there as well. Jesus washes the feet of the disciples. Matthew also tells us those who feed the hungry, give water to the thirst, welcomed strangers, clothed the naked, took care of the sick and visited those in prison inherited the kingdom.

Sufficiency speaks to exclusive conditions affirming a positive result. While necessary refers to one or more conditions to affirm a positive result.

For the repentant thief crucified with Jesus, his confession was sufficient. Some would call that a work.

For those of us who live longer we get to experience the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in this life. Some call the conclusion of this process salvation. But there is also a moment of salvation, that happens upon believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. The moment that this sanctification process begins.

Works performed before this time did not in any way contribute to one's coming to Christ. And afterwards works do not keep one saved. Obedience to the Holy Spirit will result in good works. But I would consider them a biproduct of the work God does on the heart for the most part save for any specific instructions to be obeyed.

 

[nedsk]

Sufficiency speaks to exclusive conditions affirming a positive result. While necessary refers to one or more conditions to affirm a positive result.

For the repentant thief crucified with Jesus, his confession was sufficient. Some would call that a work.

For those of us who live longer we get to experience the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in this life. Some call the conclusion of this process salvation. But there is also a moment of salvation, that happens upon believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior. The moment that this sanctification process begins.

Works performed before this time did not in any way contribute to one's coming to Christ. And afterwards works do not keep one saved. Obedience to the Holy Spirit will result in good works. But I would consider them a biproduct of the work God does on the heart for the most part save for any specific instructions to be obeyed.

Look up the meaning of the sufficient and get back to me.

Yes the repentant thief's confession is a work born of faith, but show that had he not made the confession his faith alone would have saved him. Jesus knew his faith existed there was no need to confess it if faith is sufficient for salvation.

No one is talking about works before or alone. You people are stubborn or stupid. You just can't pay attention to what is actually said can you? You have rote responses and you don't know what else to say.

 

[lforrest]

Look up the meaning of the sufficient and get back to me.

Yes the repentant thief's confession is a work born of faith, but show that had he not made the confession his faith alone would have saved him. Jesus knew his faith existed there was no need to confess it if faith is sufficient for salvation.

No one is talking about works before or alone. You people are stubborn or stupid. You just can't pay attention to what is actually said can you? You have rote responses and you don't know what else to say.

We are wary of false teachers. And you being defensive does not help us to determine the truth of the matter.
If your answer to a why question is: the answer is clear in his word, I guess that's fine. I for one delight in uncovering the mysteries of God and forming a better understanding by comparing scripture to scripture.

 

[nedsk]

We are wary of false teachers. And you being defensive does not help us to determine the truth of the matter.
If your answer to a why question is: the answer is clear in his word, I guess that's fine. I for one delight in uncovering the mysteries of God and forming a better understanding by comparing scripture to scripture.

That why I'm wary of you. You believe stuff not in the bible while ignoring stuff that is. That definitely doesnt make you someone I'm interested in listening to or who I want to take seriously. On top of that you seem to be claiming some absolute authority on the meaning of scripture even though you've provided no evidence of such authority other than, "because I said so". I don't care what you think of me. It's irrelevant. The more you focus on me the more.i know I'm right. Now...

Look up what sufficient means and get back to me.

 

[lforrest]

That why I'm wary of you. You believe stuff not in the bible while ignoring stuff that is. That definitely doesnt make you someone I'm interested in listening to or who I want to take seriously. On top of that you seem to be claiming some absolute authority on the meaning of scripture even though you've provided no evidence of such authority other than, "because I said so". I don't care what you think of me. It's irrelevant. The more you focus on me the more.i know I'm right. Now...

Look up what sufficient means and get back to me.

Negative, I am done with this so called conversation. I hoped we could benefit from a discussion, as iron sharpens iron, but this discussion is not fruitful.

You are making baseless accusations about my beliefs when everything I have said to you comes from scripture, directly or indirectly. Perhaps that is why you perceived authority in my words. The truth of the matter is irrelevant now.

 

[nedsk]

Negative, I am done with this so called conversation. I hoped we could benefit from a discussion, as iron sharpens iron, but this discussion is not fruitful.

You are making baseless accusations about my beliefs when everything I have said to you comes from scripture, directly or indirectly. Perhaps that is why you perceived authority in my words. The truth of the matter is irrelevant now.

You should be done with it. I would run too if I was you. It's fruitless because I won't let you dictate the conversation. I've asked you numerous times to tell me what sufficient means, but you either can't or won't. That alon makes conversation with you useless.

They are my observations. My argument is from Scripture. AGAIN for the one millionth time

James 2: 14
James 2:17
James 2:20-22
James 2:24-26

All those verses indicate that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. You can yip all you like but its not me you're arguing with. You should run along.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I've considered myself a lifelong Christian, I've also posed another question on here about "hope" more then "certainty"...has anyone else ever questioned whether it is as black and white to get into paradise as we hear? I mean we as Christians debate tooth and nail as to what it takes...baptism, no baptism , pre destination, free will...etc

Interestingly enough Ive had my own questions as someone very introspective, very analytical etc....however it is a bit challenging. As I said earlier , I have considered myself a Christian since I can remember. During the summer of 95 I had what I thought was a "being saved" moment...someone prayed for me, and I did think I "felt" something and I certainly felt a change...only for years later to hear "feelings don't matter!" from many circles of Christianity. So I have to ask was all that just emotions and not true? Kind of goes along with a time I was going through some pretty severe anxiety, I clinged to the Bible and kept nothing but Christian tv on, only to find out they are all terrible and false teachers!(Sarcasm) , and here I think I am at the best I have ever been in following Christ. I know we must most certainly use our God given discernment, but still i get tired of hearing the everyone is a false teacher argument. So with that said, especially with my mindset it is very difficult, kind of like throwing my hands in the air and saying how do we know? I hope you can see where I am coming from.

It just makes me wonder if getting into paradise is as black and white as we are taught, especially when some Christian views on entering are so severely different (specifically thinking of the baptism vs no baptism being necessary). Listening to other views is it possible that our views whichever side we are on aren't 100 percent accurate?

God saved me through a mainly-intellectual pursuit of the Bible's truth and the historical fact of Jesus' resurrection, which he used to convince me of the Bible's inspiration.

Then, when I decided to "run away" from his call to be a pastor, he made me an English teacher and then a sales manager. He used ten events, many of them dramatic, to send me to seminary with my wife and three children. He continued to shape my will as he had my thinking during those many moves.

Finally, after our second child died, he healed me of my seven-year major depression, thus dealing a blow to my unconscious, inner anger and anxiety that were at the root of my depression.

In my retirement, God combined my careers into one, writing Christian books as a published author!

In other words, God will cause your thinking, deciding, and feeling to be more aligned with his will, but it will take a lifetime. (See the book What God Has Done: My True, Dramatic God-Biography (Amazon).

 

[Strider324]

This thread could serve to illustrate - when you can’t get 10 disparate Christians into a room that can even agree on something as fundamentally critical as how salvation is achieved - why there are more and more skeptics every day. Sorry to interrupt. Please continue telling other Christians how wrong they are.

 

[nedsk]

God saved me through a mainly-intellectual pursuit of the Bible's truth and the historical fact of Jesus' resurrection, which he used to convince me of the Bible's inspiration.

Then, when I decided to "run away" from his call to be a pastor, he made me an English teacher and then a sales manager. He used ten events, many of them dramatic, to send me to seminary with my wife and three children. He continued to shape my will as he had my thinking during those many moves.

Finally, after our second child died, he healed me of my seven-year major depression, thus dealing a blow to my unconscious, inner anger and anxiety that were at the root of my depression.

In my retirement, God combined my careers into one, writing Christian books as a published author!

In other words, God will cause your thinking, deciding, and feeling to be more aligned with his will, but it will take a lifetime. (See the book What God Has Done: My True, Dramatic God-Biography (Amazon).

So you're free will was taken from you? You didn't do it out of love he caused it in you. Is that how God works?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

This thread could serve to illustrate - when you can’t get 10 disparate Christians into a room that can even agree on something as fundamentally critical as how salvation is achieved - why there are more and more skeptics every day. Sorry to interrupt. Please continue telling other Christians how wrong they are.

And then there are those that have no relationship with the Lord at all and falsely claim it's other people's fault they aren't believers.

If people would only learn to read God's Word prayerfully without outside influence relying on the Teaching Ministry of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ - they could know the Truth from the Lord's perspective and understand that the reason so many disagree is because so many are listings to the devil are are on their way to hell.

They should endeavor to NOT be like these people