Books Outside the Bible

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Marymog

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I agree that popes are human, but the Catholic Church says that they are infallible when it comes to matters of doctrine. How can they be infallible and blatantly contradict one another in matters of doctrine? The Bible is the infallible Word of God. Despite what some anti-Christians say, it doesn't contradict itself.

How long have you been a Catholic?
Please give an example where two different Popes while speaking infallibly (ex-cathedra) have "blatantly contradict(ed) one another in matters of doctrine". I am not familiar with that happening.

I agree with you. The bible is the infallible word of God. Doesn't that mean we need an infallible person or magisterium (teaching authority) to properly interpret it? Are you infallible and Calvin, your pastor and the elder you disagreed with wrong?

I became a member of the Catholic Church recently. Why?

Mary
 

Willie T

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When two people disagree, there is no law that says one of them has to be right, and the other, wrong. Nor is there a law that says either of them has to be right or wrong.
 

Marymog

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What I have always loved is how both Jews and Catholics come up with "exceptions" whenever one of their doctrines gets a little uncomfortable. Protestants also violate their own doctrines..... but they don't (usually) invent exceptions (excuses) to enable them to continue doing so.
Hi Willie.

Do you have any doctrines you live by?

Can you give me an example of one of those Catholic doctrines that became "a little uncomfortable" that The Church had to come up with an exception for?

Mary
 

Prayer Warrior

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Nope. Not trying to make a point concerning your beliefs about Calvinism.

Calvin obviously developed his doctrine by reading scripture and discerning the truth from it. His truth. Your pastor and elder defended Calvin's doctrine which means they agreed with Calvin's interpretation of Scripture. You stated you disagreed with all of them which was based on your interpretation of scripture. They believe they have the Truth. You believe you have the Truth. Is that a fair summary?

Obviously both of you can't have the Truth. Only one can.

How do you settle that difference? What makes you right and them wrong? Or vice a versa?

Mary
I appreciate your getting to the point, but no, your assessment is not a fair one. IOW, what you said in your post above does not accurately represent what I’ve said—repeatly. Please read what I’ve said about dichotomies. That explains this issue.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Please give an example where two different Popes while speaking infallibly (ex-cathedra) have "blatantly contradict(ed) one another in matters of doctrine". I am not familiar with that happening.

I agree with you. The bible is the infallible word of God. Doesn't that mean we need an infallible person or magisterium (teaching authority) to properly interpret it? Are you infallible and Calvin, your pastor and the elder you disagreed with wrong?

I became a member of the Catholic Church recently. Why?

Mary
We don’t need a person who is only human and, therefore, fallible to interpret the Bible because we have the truly infallible Holy Spirit, who is God. IOW, a human interpreter not absolutely necessary.

Many Protestants settle on one side of a biblical dichotomy (like predestination v. free will) because that’s what makes sense to them as they study the Bible. IMO, in order to do that, we have to ignore certain scriptures. So, we can err by not looking at the whole counsel of God, which is what the whole Bible is.

The main problem I see with Catholic doctrine is that some of it, if not a lot of it, is based on sources outside the Bible and is decided upon by fallible men who contradict each other. That’s very different from emphasizing one side of a biblical dichotomy. The article I’ve been quoting gives examples of popes contradicting each other and themselves in matters of doctrine.

Edit: As far as properly interpreting the Bible, I've observed that a problem is created when people try to make perfect sense of all that's in the Bible. This results in one-sided doctrine or, even worse, unbiblical doctrine. Paul said, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

We ALL know in part, but I believe that in heaven we will know fully even as we are fully known.... There are many things about this life I don't understand, but I don't have to understand everything because I put my trust in the One who does know and understand everything. (If anyone says they understand everything in the Bible perfectly, I run the other way!!!)

When we're children, we don't understand all of the things that our parents understand, but we trust them to make the right decisions for us. Of course, we find out that our parents are imperfect. We should trust our perfect God even more than we did our parents, but it seems that often we get hung up trying to force an explanation about doctrine that makes complete sense to us instead of trusting the Holy Spirit guide us into all truth.

Please don't get me wrong! I'm not saying that understanding basic Bible doctrine is unimportant. We should read and study the Bible every day! But we have to keep in mind that ultimately it's the Holy Spirit, not man, who gives us the understanding we need, and sometimes He gives it to us directly (not through a Bible teacher). No matter how we get the understanding, we must always measure that understanding against Scripture to make sure that what we hear is from the Spirit. When the Holy Spirit shows me something in Scripture that I didn't understand before, it means so much to me, and I know how to apply it to my life. It's wonderful!

I didn't mean for this post to be so long, buy your questions have me thinking about all of this. I don't mind answering honest questions.
 
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BobRyan

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There's a difference, Mary, between misunderstanding and misrepresenting. You seem like a somewhat logical person. So, to change what I said was misrepresenting what I said. This is dishonest if it's done intentionally.

As far as the point of Calvinism I disagreed about (and still do), do you understand the 5 main points of Calvinism?

You still did not answer the question about which part of Calvinism you differ with. Which of the 5 in this case.
 

Prayer Warrior

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You still did not answer the question about which part of Calvinism you differ with. Which of the 5 in this case.
I didn't get into this in the thread on Calvinism, and I'm not going to get into here. I'm not meaning to sound snippy, but I don't see that my agreement or disagreement with Calvin's main points are important.

BTW, I know that Calvin's doctrine is much more expansive than just 5 points. And I'm not against all things Calvin by any means. If you read what I wrote to Mary, you'll understand where I'm coming from.
 

Marymog

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We don’t need a person who is only human and, therefore, fallible to interpret the Bible because we have the truly infallible Holy Spirit, who is God.
Was it not a person(s) who interpreted the will of the Holy Spirit at the Council of Jerusalem that bound what all Christians should believe/practice?

Since there is no "table of contents" in the bible was it not a person who gave us the 73 books of the bible?

Was it not a person (Prayer Warrior) who decided that Calvin, your pastor and an elder in your church was misinterpreting scripture? Calvin believed he was being guided by the Holy Spirit when he came up with his 5 points. Where you not being guided by the Holy Spirit when you came up with a different interpretation than Calvin?

Mary
 

Prayer Warrior

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Was it not a person(s) who interpreted the will of the Holy Spirit at the Council of Jerusalem that bound what all Christians should believe/practice?

Since there is no "table of contents" in the bible was it not a person who gave us the 73 books of the bible?

Was it not a person (Prayer Warrior) who decided that Calvin, your pastor and an elder in your church was misinterpreting scripture? Calvin believed he was being guided by the Holy Spirit when he came up with his 5 points. Where you not being guided by the Holy Spirit when you came up with a different interpretation than Calvin?

Mary

Now, Mary, I didn't say that Calvin..."misinterpreted" the scripture. I don't believe that. He emphasized one aspect of Bible doctrine over another. That's different from misinterpreting the Bible.

I would say that misinterpreting the Bible is assigning a meaning to a scripture that is clearly contradicted by other scriptures, and therefore, is unbiblical or not supported by the Bible at all. (The only exception, if it is an exception, would be dichotomies.) I generally use scripture to interpret scripture. When I read or hear something unscriptural, the Holy Spirit brings to mind scriptures that contradict the teaching, which is why it's important to read the Bible every day and even memorize Scripture. We have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and trust that He will guide us in our understanding of the Bible.

Concerning the books of the Bible, I believe that those who chose the Holy Spirit-inspired writings to include in the Bible did so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. How could men do this apart from the Spirit?
 
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Marymog

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One really has to wonder why anyone would voluntarily join the RCC, when Scripture says "come out of her my people".
So you are adding the words "Catholic Church" to that line: "come out of the Catholic Church my people".

Why is it ok to be a Protestant, where one can believe whatever they want on any given day and church shop for the church that agrees with what they believe, but it is not ok to agree with the Catholic Church?

Do you agree with the Protestant churches that have some of the same doctrines/dogma's that the Catholic Church has? Or are those Protestant people supposed to "come out" also?

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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Now, Mary, I didn't say that Calvin..."misinterpreted" the scripture. I don't believe that. He emphasized one aspect of Bible doctrine over another.

That's different from misinterpreting the Bible. I would say that misinterpreting the Bible is assigning a meaning to a scripture that is clearly contradicted by other scriptures, and therefore, is unbiblical. I generally use scripture to interpret scripture. When I read or hear something unscriptural, the Holy Spirit brings to mind scriptures that contradict the teaching, which is why it's important to read the Bible every day and even memorize Scripture. And we have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit.
You have me so confused. :( I hope I can articulate my thoughts more clearly so I can understand what you are saying. Please bare with me:

You said that you disagreed with one of the main points of Calvinism. True or not True?

As we well know, Calvin came to those "main points" by reading and interpreting scripture. True or not True?

If you are "disagreeing" with one of Calvin's main points, would you not be disagreeing with his interpretation of scripture? You found a CONTRADICTION of Calvin's "main point" in other scripture passages? True or not True?

Are you suggesting Calvin was not reading the Bible every day and not sensitive to the Holy Spirit that is why he, in your opinion, was wrong about that main point? You did read scripture every day and you are sensitive to the Holy Spirit that is why you disagreed with him and your pastor and the elder of your church and you are right in this disagreement?

Sincerely, Mary
 

Marymog

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Concerning the books of the Bible, I believe that those who chose the Holy Spirit-inspired writings to include in the Bible did so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. How could men do this apart from the Spirit?
Who are "those" that you speak of?

Did the Holy Spirit guide the men who decided on the 73 and not guide those that decided on the 66? Or vice a versa?

Mary
 

Prayer Warrior

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You have me so confused. :( I hope I can articulate my thoughts more clearly so I can understand what you are saying. Please bare with me:

You said that you disagreed with one of the main points of Calvinism. True or not True?

As we well know, Calvin came to those "main points" by reading and interpreting scripture. True or not True?

If you are "disagreeing" with one of Calvin's main points, would you not be disagreeing with his interpretation of scripture? You found a CONTRADICTION of Calvin's "main point" in other scripture passages? True or not True?

Are you suggesting Calvin was not reading the Bible every day and not sensitive to the Holy Spirit that is why he, in your opinion, was wrong about that main point? You did read scripture every day and you are sensitive to the Holy Spirit that is why you disagreed with him and your pastor and the elder of your church and you are right in this disagreement?

Sincerely, Mary

You're confused because you DEPEND on the Catholic interpretation of the Bible. You can't see Scripture in any other light because you've chosen to believe their interpretation. Unfortunately, their interpretation includes doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible. They are unbiblical. They are man-made, not Spirit-breathed.

I think that all Christians need to be like the Bereans who compared everything Paul said to the Scriptures (that existed in their day) to see if what he was saying was true. Acts 17:10-12--"As soon as night had fallen, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true. 12As a result, many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.…"
 
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Marymog

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You're confused because you DEPEND on the Catholic interpretation of the Bible. You can't see Scripture in any other light because you've chosen to believe their interpretation. Unfortunately, their interpretation includes doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible. They are unbiblical. They are man-made, not Spirit-breathed.
You depend on yourself but I can't I depend on 2,000 years of men greater than you or I. The Apostolic and ECF???

Your interpretation DOESN"T include doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible??? Your interpretation is Biblical, not man made???

Are you being serious right now?

Can you answer those questions that you dodged? Are they true or not true?

Mary
 

BobRyan

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The Catholic Church does not kick anyone "out of all christendom". The Catholic Church simply follows scripture: if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. The excommunicated can still become a Protestant and practice whatever whim of doctrine they choose. And there are a lot to choose from....HOWEVER.....They just can't be a member of The Church until they repent.

Should The Church apologize for following scripture? Or should the Presbyterian church be held accountable for NOT following scripture?

Curious Mary

Lateran IV calls for the "extermination of heretics" -- it is a supposedly infallible ecumenical council. But no matter we can just all agree they were in gross error - right? let bygones be bygones.

Some folks would like to put a happy face on "exterminate" to simply mean "steal all their lands and property and chase them out of the nation at the point of a sword/gun" -- well "whatever". My main question is - how in the world does it occur to you to want to compare the Catholic method of dealing with differences with someone today who has a difference with Calvinist teaching at some point?
 

BobRyan

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I didn't get into this in the thread on Calvinism, and I'm not going to get into here. I'm not meaning to sound snippy, but I don't see that my agreement or disagreement with Calvin's main points are important.

BTW, I know that Calvin's doctrine is much more expansive than just 5 points. And I'm not against all things Calvin by any means. If you read what I wrote to Mary, you'll understand where I'm coming from.

No worries - I myself am far from being Calvinist (I sometimes refer to myself as 2.5 Calvinist or is it 1.5? I keep forgetting where I fall in that lineup)
 

BobRyan

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You have me so confused. :( I hope I can articulate my thoughts more clearly so I can understand what you are saying. Please bare with me:

You said that you disagreed with one of the main points of Calvinism. True or not True?

As we well know, Calvin came to those "main points" by reading and interpreting scripture. True or not True?

If you are "disagreeing" with one of Calvin's main points, would you not be disagreeing with his interpretation of scripture? You found a CONTRADICTION of Calvin's "main point" in other scripture passages? True or not True?

Are you suggesting Calvin was not reading the Bible every day and not sensitive to the Holy Spirit that is why he, in your opinion, was wrong about that main point? You did read scripture every day and you are sensitive to the Holy Spirit that is why you disagreed with him and your pastor and the elder of your church and you are right in this disagreement?

Sincerely, Mary

hmmm.. or maybe he should just listen to whatever his church magisterium tells him to think -- which is still going to result in non-Catholic. I don't see how this solves the issue.
 

Prayer Warrior

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You depend on yourself but I can't I depend on 2,000 years of men greater than you or I. The Apostolic and ECF???

Your interpretation DOESN"T include doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible??? Your interpretation is Biblical, not man made???

Are you being serious right now?

Can you answer those questions that you dodged? Are they true or not true?

Mary
I NEVER said that I depend on myself. In fact, I've said the opposite many times. I've said over and over that I DEPEND on the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth. That is to say that I CANNOT understand the truth apart from Him. I can know things about God and about the Bible, but I can't understand God or His Word without the Holy Spirit. It's kind of like the difference in hearing about someone and knowing them.

Before I was saved, I tried to read the Bible sometimes. I always became frustrated and gave up because it didn't make sense to me. When I became a Christian, the Holy Spirit gave me understanding, and I LOVED reading the Bible. I couldn't get enough of it! It fed my spirit.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit will lead me to read a certain book in the Bible--say Genesis or Matthew. When I obey His leading, I'm always blessed with deeper understanding of the Scriptures even though I've read these books many times. He always shows me things I didn't see before, and those things, which have always been there (obviously) instruct me in my life.
 
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