Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Spiritual Israelite]

Continued from above (2 of 2)...


Now this is absolutely true. Not just "involves"... <chuckles>

Includes, involves, however you want to say it. Goodness. I'm just saying those things all happen at the same time (receiving the Spirit, baptism of the Spirit, regeneration of the Spirit).

No one anywhere in the Bible ~ Moses, or Ezekiel, or Paul, or Peter... or Jesus... ~ ever indicates in any way that this happens as a result of repentance and/or belief and/or faith.

Wrong. In John 1:12, it says that after accepting/receiving Christ, someone then becomes a child of God. Becoming a child of God is the same thing as being born of God. So, faith comes before regeneration. In Ephesians 1:12-13 it says that people first trust in Christ and then they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Would you try to argue that people are sealed with the Holy Spirit at a separate time than they are regenerated and baptized by the Holy Spirit? If so, what would that be based on?

Whenever this is mentioned anywhere in the Bible, the only... Person... credited for causing this to happen for anyone is God Himself.

Of course! After all the discussion we've had about this, you still do not know what I believe. It's amazing! Astounding! And sad, really. How does someone deserve credit for that by simply humbling themselves and accepting God's offer of salvation through repentance and faith? Does someone who is rescued from a house fire by a firefighter deserve credit for accepting the firefighter's offer to save them for being burned in the fire as if the person saved themselves?

Your arguments are geared towards those who believe in a works-based salvation doctrine. That is NOT what I believe no matter what you say. Why not make an effort to see what I actually believe instead of assuming I'm another one of those who you've debated before who think that people can earn their salvation by their own works and righteousness? Faith is not work that someone can boast about.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Paul made it clear that Abraham could have boasted if he was justified by works and he said that Abraham was instead justified by his faith. As it says in verse 5 above: "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness". Faith is necessary for salvation, but works are not because that would give cause for boasting.

These have been cited many times, but again:

• Ezekiel 11, 36: "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh... I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
• Ephesians 1-2: "...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory... God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
• 1 Peter 1: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Indeed, all blessing and honor and glory and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen. (Revelation 7).

Amen! I agree! We're not saved by works! Couldn't agree more! We don't spiritually regenerate ourselves! Agree! Yeah, bro! But, where does faith fit in there? Hmmm.

But, anyway, your strawman surely disagrees with what you're saying there. But, not me. Of course, I don't interpret all of those scriptures exactly the same way as you do. But, I sure agree with all of them.

And I you. Fair enough. Take a look at John 8:42-47... "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of My own accord, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Yeah, I've looked at that many times and have no issue with any of it. What you don't understand is that some of those who did not believe in Him at that time believed in Him later. That's your issue with John 10:26, too. You think Jesus is saying that they who did not believe in Him at that time and were not His sheep at that time never would believe in Him and never would be His sheep. That is false. Just look at Romans 11. Some of those who were blinded/hardened at that time and were not His sheep later were saved and became His sheep (Romans 11:14).

I did not say "could not," but that they did not, because they were not His sheep, which is EXACTLY what He said.

So, you're saying you think they could have believed?

Do you believe that those who He said were not His sheep at that time could never become His sheep after that? That's how you seem to interpret it, but that would contradict what He said later to them who were not His sheep...

John 10:37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

This would have been a strange thing for Him to tell them if He intended to say that not only were they not His sheep at the time, but that they never could be.

But you know, since you put "could not" in there, remember what this same Jesus said to His disciples (and thus us by extension):

• "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, 'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:25-26).
• "And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.'" (Mark 10:26-27 ).
• "Those who heard it said, 'Then who can be saved?' But he said, 'What is impossible with man is possible with God.'" (Luke 18:26-27)

And how do you interpret these? You're not going to convince me of anything by just quoting scriptures to me that I agree with. You can't quote one verse from anywhere in the bible that I'll disagree with, so you need to tell me what exactly you think these verses are saying and why and then we can discuss them.

 

[Truth7t7]

You believe that the prophecies regarding the first coming of Jesus were interpreted in the past and that is 100% preterist. So, we're all preterists according to the way you define preterism, which is not the way anyone else defines preterism.

The word "Preterist" means nothing more than something that has already taken place regarding (Eschatology/Prophecy) primarily in the 1st century, Jesus walked the earth during this time frame 1st century

Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15 Nor the "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 have started or taken place yet, these are future events unfulfilled

The poster RWB suggested preaching the gospel to the nations and persecution represented Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15, he was shown in post #569 that his suggestions are 100% false, it's that simple

You also have suggested in the past that there's a 2,000 year gap seen in Matthew Chapter 24, and as I remember it's close to the same fairy tale line as RWB

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The word "Preterist" means nothing more than something that has already taken place regarding (Eschatology/Prophecy) primarily in the 1st century, Jesus walked the earth during this time frame 1st century

So, you are a preterist then because Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies about His first coming. We're all preterists by that definition.

Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15 Nor the "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 have started or taken place yet, these are future events unfulfilled

The poster RWB suggested preaching the gospel to the nations and persecution represented Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15, he was shown in post #569 that his suggestions are 100% false, it's that simple

That is not what I believe. God's wrath is described there, not persecution, as the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-24 makes more clear by referring to it as "great distress in the land and wrath upon this people" (Luke 21:23).

You also have suggested in the past that there's a 2,000 year gap seen in Matthew Chapter 24, and as I remember it's close to the same fairy tale line as RWB

You are very ignorant. He does not believe that Matthew 24:15 relates to what happened in 70 AD, but I do. I think he believes that Luke 21:20-24 is not parallel to Matthew 24:15-21 as I do, so he sees that as a separate event, but I can't recall for sure. Regardless, he does not see Matthew 24:21 as referring to God's wrath, but I do. And I see the times of the Gentiles that Luke referred to in Luke 21:24 as taking place since what happened in 70 AD. Jerusalem still has no temple and is being trampled upon by the Gentiles to this day.

The one who believes in fairy tales is you. Seeing an imaginary individual Antichrist sitting in a meaningless physical temple in the future that you think would somehow be God's temple might make for entertaining fiction novels, but it makes for bad doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No matter how many times you quote that Jesus comes after the trib, then post a verse that does zero to support your misplaced rapture claim, it will never magically transform to a postrib rapture.
You are testifying that angels gather in heaven postrib.
Yes 100% correct.
You are trying to make it into the rapture of the church.

You can not connect the dots at all.

Factor in the gathering in Rev 14, which is years before the second coming prewrath.

Something is missing in your brain to stop you from seeing that you are preaching the gathering of rev 14:14 PRECEEDS REV 19 SECOND COMING.
YOU REALLY ARE THAT BLIND?????
THE DEAD DO NOT not rise first ????

Will await your latest bizarre conclusion.
It will be a dodge for sure.
All those sentences to tell us the dead do not rise first????

SMH

If you want to disagree with him, that's fine. But, why do you lie? Nowhere did he say that "the dead do not rise first". Absolutely nowhere. So, why are you lying about what he believes? Paul is quite clear in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 that the dead in Christ are resurrected first and then they, together with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. He never said otherwise. Do you think that lying is not a sin? Do you think that people can't tell that you resort to lies about what others believe in order to make your own beliefs look better? How much more desperate can you get?

 

[David in NJ]

No matter how many times you quote that Jesus comes after the trib, then post a verse that does zero to support your misplaced rapture claim, it will never magically transform to a postrib rapture.
You are testifying that angels gather in heaven postrib.
Yes 100% correct.
You are trying to make it into the rapture of the church.

You can not connect the dots at all.

Factor in the gathering in Rev 14, which is years before the second coming prewrath.

Something is missing in your brain to stop you from seeing that you are preaching the gathering of rev 14:14 PRECEEDS REV 19 SECOND COMING.
YOU REALLY ARE THAT BLIND?????
THE DEAD DO NOT not rise first ????

Will await your latest bizarre conclusion.
It will be a dodge for sure.
All those sentences to tell us the dead do not rise first????

SMH

#1 - Revelation has many layers to it as it Unfolds the Message

#2 - pre-trib declares rapture before the Resurrection = which the Holy Spirit Says is a lie

 

[Truth7t7]

You believe that the prophecies regarding the first coming of Jesus were interpreted in the past and that is 100% preterist. So, we're all preterists according to the way you define preterism, which is not the way anyone else defines preterism.

Yes I have shown "Several Times" that the Olivet Discourse seen in Matthew Chapter 24 and the 3 items below is the guideline in defining a preterist

RWB falsely believes and teaches that Daniel's AOD started its fulfillment in the 1st century, and it pertains to preaching the gospel and persecution, with this suggestion being 100% false as was shown in post #569

Items 1 & 2 haven't started as RWB would suggest or claim, the "Start" of these events are future unfulfilled, RWB believes in a future second coming, he's a "Partial Preterist" in his belief that Daniel's AOD & and The Great tribulation has already started in the past

I'm a futurist that believes and teaches that all 3 items below haven't started or taken place yet, these are future events

1.) Daniel's AOD Matthew 24:15

2.) The "Great Tribulation" Matthew 24:21

3.) The second coming Matthew 24:29-31

 

[Truth7t7]

Pretribbers are A duped deluded liars?

You have never shown anyone where we are wrong.
You can not.
All you are doing is posting hyperparanoia about false leaders, religions, etc.

All the while decieved by your doctrine of no verses.
No verses!
Just voicing how much you are offended by Jesus words.

I would like you to post scripture that supports a pre-trib rapture, waiting?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

RWB falsely believes and teaches that Daniel's AOD started its fulfillment in the 1st century, and it pertains to preaching the gospel and persecution, with this suggestion being 100% false as was shown in post #569

I disagree with that, also. Matthew 24:21 is referring to God's wrath, as the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-24 indicates. Matthew 24:15-21 has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel and persecution of believers over the past 2,000 years. The passage does not have a global scope as Jesus specifically said it relates to things that would occur in Judea and Jerusalem.

Items 1 & 2 haven't started as RWB would suggest or claim, the "Start" of these events are future unfulfilled, RWB believes in a future second coming, he's a "Partial Preterist" in his belief that Daniel's AOD & and The Great tribulation has already started in the past

LOL. I know what he believes.

I'm a futurist that believes and teaches that all 3 items below haven't started or taken place yet, these are future events

1.) Daniel's AOD Matthew 24:15

2.) The "Great Tribulation" Matthew 24:21

3.) The second coming Matthew 24:29-31

I know what you believe, too. No need to waste your time telling me this. None of the three of us believe that the second coming occurred in 70 AD, as preterists believe.

Let me just ask you this. Do you believe that what happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the destruction of the city and its temple buildings, is something that the Bible prophesies anywhere? Wouldn't you agree that was a significant event, considering that the Jews way of life and their religion was basically destroyed when that event happened?

 

[Truth7t7]

Regardless, he does not see Matthew 24:21 as referring to God's wrath, but I do. And I see the times of the Gentiles that Luke referred to in Luke 21:24 as taking place since what happened in 70 AD. Jerusalem still has no temple and is being trampled upon by the Gentiles to this day.

I was right, you believe Matthew 24:21 started in the 1st century 70AD and has been ongoing "SINCE" that time, a roughly 2,000 year tribulation and waiting?

Thats 100% "MALARKEY"!

Yes believing and teaching that the "Great Tribulation" began in the 1st century is 100% a false preterist teaching, Daniel's AOD as seen in Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Therefore Shall See The Abomination Of Desolation) this "Starts" the Great Tribulation", and it didn't take place in the 1st century 70AD or anytime after

You can't have a "Great Tribulation" taking place in the 1st century 70AD, with the elect running away from Judea to the mountains as seen in Matthew 24:22 for 2,000 years and waiting, a time so bad it won't be seen again on earth (No Nor Ever Shall Be) for 2,000 years and waiting, (LAUGHABLE)

The words as seen in Matthew 24:22 below (Except Those Day's Should Be Shortned, There Should Be No Flesh Saved: ) this doesn't represent a 2,000 year ongoing tribulation and waiting for a future second coming, who you trying to bamboozle, "Not Me"!

Matthew 24:15-22KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was right, you believe Matthew 24:21 started in the 1st century 70AD and has been ongoing "SINCE" that time, a roughly 2,000 year tribulation and waiting?

Wrong. It started and ended in 70 AD as I've said MANY times. Hello? Do you not have any reading comprehension skills at all? It seems not.

Thats 100% "MALARKEY"!

Yes, seeing that verse as referring to 2,000 years of great tribulation is 100% malarkey. I agree.

Yes believing and teaching that the "Great Tribulation" began in the 1st century is 100% a false preterist teaching, Daniel's AOD as seen in Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Therefore Shall See The Abomination Of Desolation) this "Starts" the Great Tribulation", and it didn't take place in the 1st century 70AD or anytime after

You can't have a "Great Tribulation" taking place in the 1st century 70AD, with the elect running away from Judea to the mountains as seen in Matthew 24:22 for 2,000 years and waiting, a time so bad it won't be seen again on earth (No Nor Ever Shall Be) for 2,000 years and waiting, (LAUGHABLE)

I don't. You are laughing at your strawman because of your inability to read.

The words as seen in Matthew 24:22 below (Except Those Day's Should Be Shortned, There Should Be No Flesh Saved: ) this doesn't represent a 2,000 year ongoing tribulation and waiting for a future second coming, who you trying to bamboozle, "Not Me"!

LOL! There are some foolish people on this forum who waste a lot of time making strawman arguments and you're near the top of the list. You can't get that time back.

 

[David in NJ]

The word "Preterist" means nothing more than something that has already taken place regarding (Eschatology/Prophecy) primarily in the 1st century, Jesus walked the earth during this time frame 1st century

Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15 Nor the "Great Tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 have started or taken place yet, these are future events unfulfilled

The poster RWB suggested preaching the gospel to the nations and persecution represented Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15, he was shown in post #569 that his suggestions are 100% false, it's that simple

You also have suggested in the past that there's a 2,000 year gap seen in Matthew Chapter 24, and as I remember it's close to the same fairy tale line as RWB

Question:
Could the Gospel to all nations be the "gap" in the 70th Week of Daniel chapter 9 ???

That is the only conclusion that i see from Scripture since the 70th Week itself is about CHRIST

24“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This fits perfectly in JESUS Prophecy given in Matthew ch24

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[PinSeeker]

Turn your sarcasm meter on. I wasn't being serious.

Okay, cool.

Good grief. I thought that would be obvious...

It wasn't. No matter.

Say what now? I see that you have not improved on making yourself clear.

Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...

Corporate baptism of the Holy Spirit? Uh...no.

Nope. You agreed with me regarding what happened at Pentecost being a unique, once-for-all event in salvation history that inaugurated the New Covenant church. So corporate in that respect.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was to place them into the body of Christ just like has been the case ever since.

Right, individually speaking, yes.

it still happened individually in each of them because of their faith.

Not "because," SI, but through. Through faith, which is God's assurance (Hebrews 11:1); only He can give His assurance. This is what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8. And, once we have it, it can never and will never be taken away.

Peter confirmed that later by saying this...

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord...

Which is a one to one correlation with what John says in 1 John 2, that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Experientially, yes, this is the case. But this is after we have been born again of the Spirit and are thus in Christ, not before. "Not of because of the will of man, but the will of God..." It is not that man does not have a will, or even "free will," but that it is not the first, or primary, cause of... in terms of Acts 3:19... the blotting out of our sins.

As if I'm going to say in response "No, Peter did contradict himself!".

Right, never have I said or implied that you would knowingly do this. But that's the unintended but inevitable result of holding what you hold to... what you hold to turns two things that Peter said against each other.

Come on.

<smile>

Includes, involves, however you want to say it. Goodness. I'm just saying those things all happen at the same time (receiving the Spirit, baptism of the Spirit, regeneration of the Spirit).

Good, we agree on that. I have said this many times.

Continued (1 of 2)...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above (2 of 2)...

Wrong. In John 1:12, it says that after accepting/receiving Christ, someone then becomes a child of God.

Ohhhhh... don't cut off the very next verse! <smile> Yeah, so... verbatim...

"to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13).​

So yes, they freely received Him and believed in His name, but BECAUSE they had been born not of the will of man but of God. Which is directly parallel to what Paul says in Romans 9:14-18, particularly verse 16...

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.... So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills"...​

...and Ephesians 2...

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠... For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works."​

I mean say what you want about me, but you're refuting Scripture itself, as unintentional as you may be, but like I said, it is what it is.

Becoming a child of God is the same thing as being born of God. So, faith comes before regeneration.

Ah, so you made yourself a child of God. Even though all the passages directly above (not an exhaustive list) directly refute what you say here...

Yeah, no, absolutely not. Again, not "because of faith" but rather "by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). And again, faith, by definition, is God's assurance; only He can give that. So through God's assurance and conviction by the Holy Spirit (Hebrews 11:1). This is the vehicle through which God saves us. In this way, we are born again, not according to our own will but according to God's. Again, Ephesians 1... "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved... In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will..."

In Ephesians 1:12-13 it says that people first trust in Christ and then they are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

No, our trusting is the inward and outward evidence of our sealing by the Spirit in Christ. And verse 13, Paul says when you heard, not because you heard. And you will remember, I'm sure, what this same Paul says in Romans 10:17, that faith ~ which again is, by definition, is God's assurance (Hebrews 11:1); only He can give that ~ comes by hearing, which should bring to mind yet again what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3, that "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Paul made it clear that Abraham could have boasted if he was justified by works and he said that Abraham was instead justified by his faith.

Sure, absolutely, faith, which is God's assurance, given to Abraham. The same is true for all of us.

Amen! I agree! We're not saved by works! Couldn't agree more! We don't spiritually regenerate ourselves! Agree! Yeah, bro!

LOL! Great! But you contradict youself... inadvertently... by saying, among other things, "after accepting/receiving Christ, someone then becomes a child of God" and "faith comes before regeneration." I mean it is what it is. In saying those things, you are essentially refuting all the passages I cited directly above.

But, where does faith fit in there? Hmmm.

Yeah, hmmm. I mean ignorance is... self-induced... <smile>

I don't interpret all of those scriptures exactly the same way as you do.

I know. <smile>

But, I sure agree with all of them.

Okay.

You think Jesus is saying that they who did not believe in Him at that time and were not His sheep at that time never would believe in Him and never would be His sheep.

No, I don't believe that; I can't know that, and neither can you or anyone else. It may be that none... or some... or all... of the people Jesus was speaking to were elect, but we cannot know that. We only know what was the case in the moment Jesus was speaking to them.

Just look at Romans 11. Some of those who were blinded/hardened at that time and were not His sheep later were saved and became His sheep (Romans 11:14).

Absolutely. With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Just as Jesus said.

So, you're saying you think they could have believed?

Sure. Maybe some, or even all, were given faith through Jesus's words, or at some later point, but we cannot know that.

Do you believe that those who He said were not His sheep could never become His sheep after that?

No. There are many among us who are not His sheep yet but at some point will be.

And how do you interpret these?

You mean as if I haven't said a hundred times before now? The main point I was making there... and yes, I should have been explicit... was that, in reference to your "could not," in what Jesus is saying there, He is not saying the cannot believe, that their believing is impossible, but that they cannot be saved by any effort of their own, they cannot do anything to merit salvation... it is impossible for them to be saved in that sense. Which fits hand in hand with everything I have said... or, rather, I should say, everything I have said fits hand in hand with what Jesus says.

You're not going to convince me of anything by just quoting scriptures to me that I agree with. You can't quote one verse from anywhere in the bible that I'll disagree with, so you need to tell me what exactly you think these verses are saying and why and then we can discuss them.

Um... <chuckles> Bless your heart. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Marilyn C]

Your message is either:
" no such thing as the bride of Christ"
Or
"Only women can be the bride of Christ"
Or
You have possibly tried to process God's word, and it offends you, so you accuse men that read and process scripture of being perverts ( women),( or some other defective silliness)

Your claims are way way out there
.
Just stay away from any reference to the bride of Christ.
Reading Hosea or Ruth really gets deep in the bride / wife analogy
Those bible analogies are way way over your head.

That`s right Hosea and Ruth for Israel.

I have continually said `as the bride of Christ` is a symbol of the glory of God. (Rev. 21: 11)

 

[Marilyn C]

Well that is progress.
But miles away from unpacking the bride/wife dynamic.
Maybe just drop it or open your heart to truth.

I haven`t seen any proof that the Body of Christ is female, a bride, when we are told we are the New Man, told to put on the New Man and come to the perfect Man. The New Man being of both male and female characteristics.

 

[Marilyn C]

I know what is behind resistance to the bride and wife study.

Has a smell to it big time.

SMH

The heart of the bible.
The actual core of God, and heaven....and 90% of believers are clueless.

What?????
Seems impossible..but it proves the masses of Christians are indeed offended by God's word.
Without the bride and wife dynamic, end times will be a shallow discussion, without a clue as to what is actually happening....as we see here daily.

The 7 yr trib has purpose.
What is it? ( please do not answer)
The rapture has a purpose.
What is it? ( please do not answer)
Nobody here knows either purpose.

....and yet flail wildly at the leaves of the tree.
Pure guesswork.

The purpose of the `gathering together to be caught up,` is so that we are joined to the Lord and taken to His own throne in the highest. From there we will rule and reign with Him throughout the trib, and beyond, judging the world system and fallen angels.

 

[Truth7t7]

Wrong. It started and ended in 70 AD as I've said MANY times. Hello? Do you not have any reading comprehension skills at all? It seems not.

Thanks for the response, the many partial preterist posters have a slightly different belief regarding Matthew Chapter 24, sorry I forgot your exact belief

OK you believe the "Great Tribulation" as seen in Matthew 24:21 as taking place in 70AD just as the majority of Reformed "Partial Preterist" do

I recall somewhere in your belief of Matthew 24 you saw a 2,000 year gap somewhere, correct me if I'm wrong?

Question: How do you have a "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21, and a future second coming taking place "Immediately After" this great tribulation Matthew 24:29-30?

This Great Tribulation is referenced as being in "Those Days" as identified in bold blue, same Great Tribulation in verses Matthew 24:21 & 29 below

Matthew 24:15-22KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

Question:
Could the Gospel to all nations be the "gap" in the 70th Week of Daniel chapter 9 ???

That is the only conclusion that i see from Scripture since the 70th Week itself is about CHRIST

24“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
25“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

This fits perfectly in JESUS Prophecy given in Matthew ch24

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Seventy Weeks doesn't account for 2,000 years and waiting for the second coming

Israelite believes the great tribulation took place in 70AD

RWB believes the great tribulation "Started" when Jesus was on this earth, and it's continued for the past 2,000 years and waiting for the second coming