Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite

Hey I just got back from my daily run and thought I’d explain in little more detail my football analogy. Or parable… <smile>

Oh, how exciting. As if I needed this? No. I know what you were saying and I disagree. Just accept that.

Yeah, so… <smile> …God is obviously the:

• Coach Who puts you in (and keeps you in) the game
• Kicker/Punter Who kicks you the ball
• Quarterback Who throws you the ball or hands it off to you

And you have been… infused… with the… “talent” <chuckles> …and the all-in-for-the-team attitude of Jesus… and are even wearing His jersey (#1, obviously), so you will not fail, even if it looks inevitable at times.

Yeah, I know what you were intending to say. I'm a big football fan, so I don't need this explained to me. I disagree that your analogy here is relevant to how salvation works. As you already know. But, I guess you just wanted to talk some more football. Which I'm fine with because I watch a lot of football.

And to your little… objection

My little objection. LOL. I was showing how I understand things. I have a BIG objection to your overall understanding of salvation, as you probably have noticed.

… that “a kick returner can choose whether to receive a kickoff or punt or not... can choose to just let the ball go if they want or they can choose to receive it,” regardless of the case, it’s still your ball, so… you… as the returner… received it. <smile> It’s your team’s ball, and you are on offense. So, you know, you still received the ball… <chuckles>

LOL. To receive a kickoff or punt return involves catching the ball. The returner can either call a fair catch, catch the ball and return it, or just let the ball go. He must use his free will to decide which of those things he wants to do. Letting the ball go is not a case of receiving the ball. Regardless, your analogy is very silly and not relevant to how salvation works.

Ohhhh… now, you might, um, you know, forget the play the Coach or QB called, or run the wrong way from time to time, or even fumble (GASP!). These are sins… but don’t worry, the Coach will still keep you in, forgiving you for your miscues (because you are wearing Jesus’s #1 jersey)… and because the Father “drafted you” and has “coached you up,” and Jesus Himself is the author and finisher/perfecter of your… “receiving,” “running,” and “catching.” If you fumble, you have the Holy Spirit, so you’ll recover the ball… remember the play… overcome all adversity… <smile> And ultimately, you will score… and win. Because Jesus long ago sealed the final outcome…

That was fun. LOL!

Glad that you had fun, at least. Maybe some time, if I feel ambitious, I'll come up with a football related analogy to show how I understand how salvation works. Not that it should be necessary in order for you to understand how I see it since I've already made that clear by now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Honest end time study incorporates all context and rejects doctrines based on omission.
The "going through the trib" belief is made up.
Bible facts:
1) the AC is given power to overcome the saints
2) every human on the planet, not a believer, either takes the mark, or is martyred.
3) 1 thes 4 says the dead in christ rise first.
That ONLY fits a pretrib rapture.
What is postribs main talking point?
"Only one coming at the white horses 2nd coming of rev 19"
That is a huge problem.
In fact they themselves destroy their own doctrine.
The gathering of rev 14:14 is BEFORE the second coming.
Postribs are actually oblivious to the Fact that they claim a gathering / resurrection AFTER rev 14's gathering BY JESUS DURING THE TRIB.
Was the bible wrong that the dead in Christ
DO NOT RISE FIRST??????
Now, why promote a failed doctrine???? ?
I just sank their entire navy.
Postrib rapture is impossible on those 2 points.
Impossible.

More ranting from you. And you complain about others? Look at how you talk to others. Nothing but childish rants.

What are you intending to say about the dead in Christ rising first? How does that prove a pre-trib rapture? What are you saying that the dead in Christ rise first before? The tribulation? Is that your point? The dead in Christ rise first before the tribulation occurs? If so, I and all post-tribs agree with that if the tribulation you're talking about is the wrath of Christ (see 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10). Is that what you're talking about when you refer to the tribulation in relation to a pretrib or post-trib rapture?

If you have any interest in being on the same page with those you are talking to in terms of what exactly each person is talking about, then you will answer my questions so that we can be clear as to what exactly you are talking about when you refer to a pretrib rapture. We have to define the "trib" part of pretrib or post-trib in order to talk about the same thing. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of strawman arguments coming from both sides. So, can you please clarify what you are talking about exactly and how you define the tribulation exactly? You seem to compare it to Noah's flood. That's God's wrath. Most people don't define the trib of pre-trib or post-trib as God's wrath. So, that creates a disconnect between what you're talking about and what others are talking about.

 

[David in NJ]

View attachment 86123

pre-trib charts are LOL x100

"Hey everyone, look away from the word of Christ and the Holy Spirit, look at this nifty-thrifty chart"

They are man-made falsehoods that reflect the falsehood of pre-trib

You need to be taught again, the Truth concerning our NEED for a SAVIOR = Genesis chapter 3 and Matthew 4:1-11


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”

4Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

pre-trib charts are LOL x100

"Hey everyone, look away from the word of Christ and the Holy Spirit, look at this nifty-thrifty chart"

They are man-made falsehoods that reflect the falsehood of pre-trib

Right. It's very noticeable that pre-tribs are the only ones who ever feel the need to make those convoluted charts. There are no charts in scripture. We can understand what is written in scripture without charts. It seems that they make these charts in an effort to make it look like they know what they're talking about, but it has the opposite effect as far as I'm concerned. If the charts serve any purpose at all, it would be that they just make it even more clear how their view does not agree with what is written in scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

I know what you were saying and I disagree.

Of course.

Just accept that.

I accepted long ago accepted your disagreement... thus my repeated entreaties to agree to disagree. But you just can't do that... <chuckles>

I disagree that your analogy here is relevant to how salvation works.

I know. <smile>

My little objection. LOL. I was showing how I understand things.

Yes. Yes you were. <chuckles>

To receive a kickoff or punt return involves catching the ball.

Whether the receiver catches it or not is irrelevant as long as it is not fumbled... it's still the receiver's team's ball. And like I said, because the receiver has been... infused... with Jesus's "talent," he (or she) will not fumble. <smile> Getting back out of this little... "quibble"... about the parable itself, though, as God Himself says... well, I'll quote Him:

"...as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose" (Isaiah 55:10-11).

Oh. Yeah. In the analogy/parable, SI, the football represents God's Word. <smile>

The returner can either call a fair catch, catch the ball and return it, or just let the ball go.

Sure. As I have said twice before now, it's still the receiver's ball. And... he will score, if not immediately, eventually. Again, very relevantly, but getting out of the parable, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6).

Regardless, your analogy is very silly and not relevant to how salvation works.

In your opinion. Sure. Totally get it. That's cool.

Maybe some time, if I feel ambitious, I'll come up with a football related analogy to show how I understand how salvation works.

I'm sure that will be... fun... too. <chuckles>

Not that it should be necessary in order for you to understand how I see it since I've already made that clear by now.

Right, not necessary; I well understand your position. <smile> But hey, you do have free will and all... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I accepted long ago accepted your disagreement... thus my repeated entreaties to agree to disagree. But you just can't do that... <chuckles>

LOL. I have done that and you are the one who is trying to keep it going. I don't mind agreeing to disagree.

Whether the receiver catches it or not is irrelevant as long as it is not fumbled... it's still the receiver's team's ball.

We're not talking about the team, we're talking about the kick returner/receiver.

And like I said, because the receiver has been... infused... with Jesus's "talent," he (or she) will not fumble. <smile>

Do you really think that I don't know what you're trying to say? I do and disagree with it. Okay? This is me saying let's just agree to disagree. But, you don't want to.

Oh. Yeah. In the analogy/parable, SI, the football represents God's Word. <smile>

Yeah, and God's Word can be missed/dropped/fumbled, so to speak, by the people reading it.

You are showing a touchdown pass being caught/received there, but you've been talking about receiving kicks or punts. Leave it to you to make things confusing. I kid. Sort of.

Sure. As I have said twice before now, it's still the receiver's ball. And... he will score, if not immediately, eventually. Again, very relevantly, but getting out of the parable, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6).

That verse doesn't mean what you think it means. Paul had confidence in those particular believers because of their "fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now". They are mature, spiritually disciplined believers who took their responsibility to submit to the Holy Spirit seriously rather than grieving or quenching the Spirit, as Paul warned believers about. You can't think that a verse like that removes all responsibility from man. If that's how it works, then why would Paul warn against grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit and why do passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 6:4-6 warn believers about falling away and departing from the living God? Philippians 1:6 has to do with having a reason to be confident that mature, disciplined believers will not resist the one who is working in them.

Paul later says this to them:

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

This shows that monergism is false and synergism is true. It's the combination of God working in us and us submitting to Him that keeps our salvation secure. Our part is to work our our own salvation with fear and trumbling. We have to be conscious of not grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. That is our responsibility. If we submit to God, He will work in us "both to will and to do for His good pleasure", but He does not force Himself upon anyone. He requires people to submit to Him and to walk in the Spirit (submit to the Spirit). Otherwise, what happens?

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Otherwise, you end up fulfulling the lust of the flesh. God can't work in you if you are doing that. He can't work in you if you are not walking in the Spirit. You're always only looking at part of the picture instead of the big picture.

In your opinion. Sure. Totally get it. That's cool.

Yeah. Cool.

I'm sure that will be... fun... too. <chuckles>

Right. Football analogies are always fun.

Right, not necessary; I well understand your position. <smile> But hey, you do have free will and all... <smile>

Yes, as we all do. You have the free will to just agree to disagree with me at this point instead of continuing the discussion. It's your choice. I'm fine with that if you choose to do that.

 

[David in NJ]

Right. It's very noticeable that pre-tribs are the only ones who ever feel the need to make those convoluted charts. There are no charts in scripture. We can understand what is written in scripture without charts. It seems that they make these charts in an effort to make it look like they know what they're talking about, but it has the opposite effect as far as I'm concerned. If the charts serve any purpose at all, it would be that they just make it even more clear how their view does not agree with what is written in scripture.

Perfectly said - thank you

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh I see this daily.
The many pretrib rapture verses cast down.
Then the false doctrine followers scoring their make believe touchdowns with many empty sentences of CONJECTURE.
That what you are talking about?

no i am talking about yall POLITICAL nar realmers who sit under a serious false prophetess
that has been annointed queen of the protestants and they sell
their ecumeincal intefaith ANTI CHIRST LIE to you all .
AS well as does the liberal left to its camp .
I wouldnt worry so much about pre , mid , or even post trib
IF ONE bE FOLLOWING THAT ANTI CHRIST peace plan . cause if even one had
the TRIB doctrine right and follows and supports that , OH THEY GONNA SEE WRATH OF GOD all RIGHT .

 

[amigo de christo]

Ok
Yes stay away from false doctrine.
I hope you can change everything you are falsely believing by connecting the dots of the word of God.
Stop every falsehood you are believing.
Don't be a harlot with those false teachers.
Don't partake of the poison.
Study the one true true gospel.
Don't be decieved.
Stop eating at the table of false teachers.
Stop eating the forbidden fruit.

Back atcha.

it aint me sitting under that which is of anti christ nor its peace plan .
ITS THE LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE , ITS THE NAR LED REALM
ITs all who have a part or support in any way , ECUMEINICAL INTEFIATH finding common ground .
NOW it aint me sitting under anyone that supports that . THE LEFT DOES
THE RIGHT DOES , and YES SIR TRUMP N VANCE DOES , THE POPE does
THEY DUPING EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU .
SO my advice to all is FLEE IT . And never look back .

 

[amigo de christo]

Honest end time study incorporates all context and rejects doctrines based on omission.
The "going through the trib" belief is made up.
Bible facts:
1) the AC is given power to overcome the saints
2) every human on the planet, not a believer, either takes the mark, or is martyred.
3) 1 thes 4 says the dead in christ rise first.
That ONLY fits a pretrib rapture.
What is postribs main talking point?
"Only one coming at the white horses 2nd coming of rev 19"
That is a huge problem.
In fact they themselves destroy their own doctrine.
The gathering of rev 14:14 is BEFORE the second coming.
Postribs are actually oblivious to the Fact that they claim a gathering / resurrection AFTER rev 14's gathering BY JESUS DURING THE TRIB.
Was the bible wrong that the dead in Christ
DO NOT RISE FIRST??????
Now, why promote a failed doctrine???? ?
I just sank their entire navy.
Postrib rapture is impossible on those 2 points.
Impossible.

you didnt sink squat my friend . Started OUT real good though .
on one and one two , even on t hree , TILL YA added this has to be A PRE TRIB rapture .
NO its a RAPTURE F ROM THE WARTH OF GOD bud . WHEN HE COMES DOWN
to LAY DOWN wrath against THAT VERY BEAST and very AC and all who took its mark .
OH ITS a rapture all right . Just not the pre trib you trying to make it out to be .
ITS KNOWN as A ONE TIME EVENT . You have been misled .
BUT what really terrifies me for you and all others is , THIS TIE i see into WHAT I KNOW
without out a doubt IS OF Satan , NOT GOD . AND NOT THE PLAN OF PEACE OF GOD
but the plan of peace of anti christ . YALLS beloved ecumeincal intefaith . Better flee it . or prepare to wail ON JESUS day .

 

[amigo de christo]

LOL x100

You have not posted one pre-trib verse!!!

How many years do you need to just find one???

all the verses HE does post and says are about pre trib , ARE NONE other than the inventions
of men .
Look even at one of their so called verses where JOHN gets caught up . THEY use that as pre trib .
HOW foolish is that . PAUL was caught up too . JOHN was not pre raptured
HE was simply caught up and shown what would occur .
HERE is the simple truth .
JESUS CHRIST , the apostels , they all t aught HIS second coming as A ONE TIME EVENT .
NOW ON IT the CHURCh DOES GO UP , AS HIS WRATH COMES DOWN
upon all who took the mark of the beast , upon the beast and false propeht and all who followed it .
ITS A ONE TIME EVENT . THE WHOLE THING is A ONE TIME EVENT .
easily proven in scriptures . HECK read second thess the first chapter .
LOOK at what peter says .
LOOK AT WHAT JESUS says .
ITS real clear when one loveth the LORD and simply reads the scriptures for one self .
ITS MEN that made it all cloudy and muddled the waters .

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't mind agreeing to disagree.

Then why didn't you do that long ago? I mean I have suggested it many times... <chuckles> But alas... And I'm sure there will be no change...

We're not talking about the team, we're talking about the kick returner/receiver.

<sigh> How long, oh Lord? <chuckles>

This is me saying let's just agree to disagree.

This is the first time you've said that. Yeah, that would be great.

But, you don't want to.

I mean yes, I would rather us come to agreement. As would you.

Yeah, and God's Word can be missed/dropped/fumbled, so to speak, by the people reading it.

Regarding God's purpose of election and the salvation of His elect (because it can be applied to so many things), "...as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose" (Isaiah 55:10-11). And as Job says, speaking to God, "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

You are showing a touchdown pass being caught/received there, but you've been talking about receiving kicks or punts. Leave it to you to make things confusing. I kid. Sort of.

In the original post containing the analogy (#671), I did say:

Try this <chuckles>: One can receive something only when it is given. Football gives is a good illustration here:​

• a kick returner can only receive a kickoff or a punt if the kicker/punter first kicks/punts the ball to him
• a running back can only receive a handoff from the quarterback if the quarterback gives it
• a receiver can only receive a pass if the quarterback first passes it...

So it seems you're either purposely or inadvertently making things confusing to yourself, which is certainly not a first-time thing by any stretch of the imagination.

You're a very... interesting... person, SI.

That verse doesn't mean what you think it means.

Again, right back atcha. That was the point. I knew very well that you wouldn't accept it, and would turn it around accordingly. So it goes.

...Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 6:4-6 warn believers about falling away and departing from the living God...

That's right, but that Hebrews 3 passage shows that it is the (unchanged) heart that leads the... person... to fall away. Believing in your mind and believing in your heart are two different things, SI, whether you think they are or not. One can believe anything with his or her mind and will act on it. But at any given time, it is one's own heart, one's own spirit within, that drives the mind and ultimately the will. The problem is... As Jeremiah says... "the heart is deceitful above all things; who can understand it?" But God changes the heart ~ for His elect He "takes out the heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh, putting a new spirit in the person's heart, even His Holy Spirit" (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27). And this ultimately is what causes us to ~ very freely ~ change our mind and thus our will, to no longer do the will of our former father the devil, but then the will of our Father God. The Holy Spirit, of course, is not deceitful, and having Him ~ and the mind, with which one exercises his/her will, then follows. The heart is the issue, as I have said many, many times.

? Philippians 1:6 has to do with having a reason to be confident that mature, disciplined believers will not resist the one who is working in them.

<chuckles> If one believes in his/her heart, he/she will not resist. Which I've always said... see above... <smile> And not because he or she "can't" in the sense of being incapable of resisting, but will not in the sense of willfully and freely acting according to the new spirit... the heart of flesh within... In the words of Martin Luther over 500 years ago, here I stand; I can do no other. I mean I... could... but in good conscience I cannot. You... understand...

Regarding Philippians 1:6, Paul is speaking there specifically of God, and His good work in us, and that He will bring it to completion. Here ~ and in so many of the passages I have quoted, Ezekiel 11 and 36, Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and 2, and 1 Peter 1 among them, this has been an unavoidable point, though you certainly still try to wriggle away from it every time (in vain) ~ God is the only Actor, the only one referenced. Nothing is said about us other than our receiving... <smile> ...our being granted this amazing grace. "...He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6). Who is the only one referenced there as doing anything, SI? Who? God began and is doing a good work in us. Yes, we can have confidence that is the case. And then, as Paul says a few sentences later, yes, we can ~ with confidence ~ "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for..." ~ BECAUSE ~ "...it is God Who works in (us), both to will and to work for His good pleasure." The cause and effect is irrefutable. It cannot be reversed, dispite your... and Pelagius's... and Jacobus Arminius's... best efforts. <smile>

...monergism is false and synergism is true.

Our good works are the result of His good work in us. As you know ~ but keep refuting, which is just astounding ~ we are born again thus saved by grace through faith, and this is not our own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works (Paul's exact words). Thus... for... For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. God's grace is not synergistic. Here again, in Ephesians 2:8-10, God is the only Actor... thereby causing us to act accordingly.

You have the free will to just agree to disagree with me at this point instead of continuing the discussion. It's your choice.

Have I not said this very thing many times? But yet you continue to argue... And yeah, I "return fire," but ghosting people is not cool...

I'm fine with that if you choose to do that.

<chuckles> Um, you're obviously not... <sigh>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[amigo de christo]

Perfectly said - thank you

YOU ever wonder why pre trib is not mentioned .
DO you ever wonder why when it is written
things that even say THE BEAST COMETH against THE SAINTS .
Notice they have to say OH ITS THE TRIBULATION saints the ones that got left behind .
STRANGE , IT SURE NEVER SAID THAT .
IT was written for what , OUR LEARNING , OUR ADOMINTION .
Kinda odd that even an angel warns NOT to take the mark
and all who do will be damned . And yet i guess those parts jus dont pertain to the sheep . KINDA ODD indeed .
THEY HAVE TO TWIST EVERYTHING to even make anything make any kind of sense about pre trib .
HOW come when JESUS warned about HIS day
he always TOLD them BE WATCHING and BE READY lest I COME UPON YOU as a THEIF.
HOW come JESUS said Ye are appointed UNTO tribulation , and pre trib says OH NO WE AINT
GOD TAKES US OUT FIRST . really , and they expect ME to buy THAT MESS they teach .
NOPE . I shall stick to what JESUS said . with the reminder
BE FAITHFUL UNTO TO DEATH . And he who endures to the END the same shall be saved .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then why didn't you do that long ago? I mean I have suggested it many times... <chuckles>

LOL! Why haven't you? Probably for similar reasons. Don't act like you're the only one who has wanted to just agree to disagree. We have done that sometimes, but then this subject seems to come up occasionally even though this is an eschatology forum and not a soteriology forum.

<sigh> How long, oh Lord? <chuckles>

Tell me again who is putting a gun to your head to make you continue responding to me? LOL.

I should have to pay for entertainment like this. I feel like I'm stealing from you.

This is the first time you've said that. Yeah, that would be great.

Absolutely false. I have said it several times. Your memory is...how do I say this nicely...not great.

But, again, no one is putting a gun to your head forcing you to keep responding to me. Why rely on me ending the discussion when you can use your free will to choose to do so at any time?

I mean yes, I would rather us come to agreement. As would you.

We both know that will never happen. Your mind is made up about these things, as is mine. We might each change our minds about some relatively minor things, like you did in relation to your understanding of Judas Iscariot's salvation or lack thereof. I don't see either of us changing our minds on anything more significant than that at any point as it relates to the topic of salvation.

Regarding God's purpose of election and the salvation of His elect (because it can be applied to so many things), "...as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose" (Isaiah 55:10-11). And as Job says, speaking to God, "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2).


In the original post containing the analogy (#671), I did say:

Try this <chuckles>: One can receive something only when it is given. Football gives is a good illustration here:​

• a kick returner can only receive a kickoff or a punt if the kicker/punter first kicks/punts the ball to him
• a running back can only receive a handoff from the quarterback if the quarterback gives it
• a receiver can only receive a pass if the quarterback first passes it...

So it seems you're either purposely or inadvertently making things confusing to yourself, which is certainly not a first-time thing by any stretch of the imagination.

LOL. What a colossal waste of time this is. Instead of repeating what I've already said for no good reason, I will just share this football related entertainment for your pleasure...

I am not intending to make any kind of theological statement with this video. It's just a video showing Barry Sanders making fools of defenders hopelessly trying to tackle him. I never tire of watching that one.

You're a very... interesting... person, SI.

Yes, you are very....uh....errr.....ummm....interesting, also, PS.

Again, right back atcha. That was the point. I knew very well that you wouldn't accept it, and would turn it around accordingly. So it goes.

Yeah, round and round it goes. Where it stops, no one knows. Because neither of us will stop. LOL. But, once again, you can stop any time you want. Doesn't matter to me. What I'm going to do right now is use my free will to stop reading your post because it has become very boring.

 

[PinSeeker]

Don't act like you're the only one who has wanted to just agree to disagree.

I'm not; I'm only... "acting like" (because I did) ...I was the one to suggest it many times in this thread, to no avail. And now you're suggesting it as if I never did, which is... well, kinda funny...

Tell me again who is putting a gun to your head to make you continue responding to me? LOL.

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... Same to you. Although in your case I wouldn't merely call it "responding"... <smile>

Absolutely false. I have said it several times.

In other threads, maybe, but not here. The record is clear...

Your memory is...how do I say this nicely...not great.

It's pretty darn good... <chuckles>

But, again, no one is putting a gun to your head forcing you to keep responding to me. Why rely on me ending the discussion when you can use your free will to choose to do so at any time?

Because it's fun to see your inability to stop arguing. You know, to put it nicely. <smile> But you just literally cannot do it. And I understand why. I mean think about why you have that feeling you have in your gut right now. It's burnin' a hole in ya, as evidenced in all your recent posts. Why? Think about it. <smile>

We both know that will never happen. Your mind is made up about these things, as is mine.

Sure. So again, why didn't you just... you know, use your free will... and take my suggestion to agree to disagree any of the multiple times I have suggested it in this thread? Well I know the answer to that... <chuckles> But now your trying to throw that back on me, which is... funny...

We might each change our minds about some relatively minor things, like you did in relation to your understanding of Judas Iscariot's salvation or lack thereof...

As I said, your reasoning was insufficient, and not why I changed my mind. Funny how you keep bringing that up, in an obvious effort to justify yourself, which... Yeah, there's a greater sense of that, very much relevant to what we've been... uh, "discussing" <chuckles> ...you thinking you can (or anyone) can justify yourself (himself/herself) to any extent at all...

. I don't see either of us changing our minds on anything more significant than that at any point as it relates to the topic of salvation.

One of us will, sooner or later. <smile> But for now it's okay. <smile>

What a colossal waste of time this is. Instead of repeating what I've already said for no good reason, I will just share this football related entertainment for your pleasure...

Loved Barry Sanders and the Lions... I think it's because I have always really enjoyed Thanksgiving, and I always loved their uniforms, these days not so much but the ones they wore when Billy Sims and Barry Sanders played... A couple of years ago my son got me a Barry Sanders jersey, but I never really wore it and I think it was always a "gift" to himself... LOL!

I am not intending to make any kind of theological statement with this video.

Okay, I will: You're Barry Sanders! And I am, too! <smile> And we are so blessed with such God-given "Talent!" <smile> So much so that we give God the glory... And in that video, Dave Kreig (or maybe it was Eric Hipple or Scott Mitchell)... <chuckles> ... is representative of God... <smile>

But, once again, you can stop any time you want.

You can, too...

Doesn't matter to me.

Ohhhhhh, it obviously does.

What I'm going to do right now is use my free will to stop reading your post

That would be absolutely splendid. I would love that.

because it has become very boring.

Ohhhh, you're not bored, you're obviously reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally worked up, and it's just eating you alive. But okay... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.